The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "The P

Should we build a world economic model to answer the euro myth quesiotn once and for all?

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Toro

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May 24, 2005
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
Toro, exactly. So as i said, dealing in another currency than the USD can cause a loss. So, it is advantageous to stock on USD, where the value and purchase capacity is constant.

Do you agree to admit this as fact?

I also suggest we consider the IMF as dollar based, and as for the world bank, i did found that the discount notes are in USD, but nothing yet for the rest (on their web site). We can for now admit that the world bank can transit in multiple currencies. IN any case, having the WB in multiple currencies suggests that the part of the reserve capital for the oil commodity is even greater; emplifying the effect of a swithc to the euro.

what do you think?

Yes, you can lose with the US dollar. But you can gain too. That's why you hedge. Now hedging is a cost, and is one of the reasons some give for scrapping the loonie for the greenback (I disagree), and one of the reasons why the euro was created.

That is a legitimate cost, and is what I meant by "economic volatility" earlier.
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
Oil is currently THE most important commodity. Why is that? Because oil is not only an important commodity by itself, but is also essential to the well being of ALL the economy of a country. If oil rarifies, then the prices of everything go up and the economy suffers. Canadians know this well when oil price went up last summer. The result was that taxi fares went up, bus passes went up, air travel increased, some foods increased, etc. Other companies such as UPS, fedex, post Canada, etc. who are dependent on trucking and transport also reduced their profit margins. If the impact is too big, economy suffers greatly. Oil is also used to make plastics, pesticides (which affect food), and other materials. In short, oil is everywhere in the economy, and this is why world countries want it so bad and continue buying it.

Actually, oil is not the most important commodity. The most important commodites are food and water. But it is important.

However, though energy is an important commodity as an input into the economy, it is not particularly important in terms of capital flows.

So, from the earlier link

For 2005, exports of $1,271.1 billion and imports of $1,996.9 billion

http://www.bea.gov/bea/newsrelarchive/2006/trad1205.pdf

We see that the US imported $2 trillion worth of stuff. Energy was the biggest import at $251.6 billion, or 12.6% of total exports. So that means everything other than energy accounted for 87.4% of imports.

Its also worthwhile to look at where the imports come from. You can see it here.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/ipsr/imports.html

US Oil imports are table 4.10. For 2004, total gross imports were 13.5 million barrels per day (b/d). Total OPEC imports were 5.7 MM b/d, or 42.2%.

Thus, we can approximate for 2005, imports from OPEC accounted for (12.6% X 42.2%) or 5.3% of total imports, or roughly $106.4 billion. In an economy the size of America's - $12.7 trillion - that's 0.8% of the total economy.

Now earlier, we saw that the US economy accounts for 28.4% of the world economy. Thus, the GDP of the world is about $44.7 billion. Those US energy imports from OPEC account for 0.24% of the global economy.

Apparently, this 0.24% of capital flows is what is going to trigger a collapse of the US dollar standard.
 

unclepercy

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

I admit I have nothing to contribute to this conversation except my extreme interest. I have read every word, and I'm attempting to understand the discourse.

There is a world class economist, Thomas Sowell, on another board, and I would LOVE to have him enter this conversation. But when I invited him to join us here about a year ago, I nearly got fined $5,000 for spamming. Can't do it. I also follow his posts.

Are you familiar with him, Toro?

Uncle
 

Huck

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Thanks for your interrest unclepercy, i promissse we will make it worth your time.


As for Toro, let's keep away from the american economy for the moment; it is not relevant. The main driving forces here are not the USA nor their economy, but the value of the dollar in the rest of the world. The rush for the american dollar (caused by oil, loans and due tu this, local currency valuation) cases a stocking of USD and it is what causes this mechanism of the dollar hegemony. It is this hegemony that the US benefits and is a risk to their economy (i will detail this more later)

The US economy is not relevant, but ht mechanism of trade deficit, US public debt and US dollar printing for free.

can you agree?
 

Huck

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Toro, as for the World Bank, im going to need you to help me find where they state their loan denomination is not only in dolalrs, as i can not find it.

Unless proof is given, we do not know for sure how they proceed. It believe it is USD, like the IMF, but we must prove it.
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
As for Toro, let's keep away from the american economy for the moment; it is not relevant. The main driving forces here are not the USA nor their economy, but the value of the dollar in the rest of the world. The rush for the american dollar (caused by oil, loans and due tu this, local currency valuation) cases a stocking of USD and it is what causes this mechanism of the dollar hegemony. It is this hegemony that the US benefits and is a risk to their economy (i will detail this more later)

The US economy is not relevant, but ht mechanism of trade deficit, US public debt and US dollar printing for free.

can you agree?

No.

You cannot stay away from the US economy Huck. Its completely relevent because the value of the dollar in the rest of the world is driven by the US economy. Its like having a discussion about hockey without considering skates, sticks, ice and pucks. Its far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far more important than the currency composition of World Bank loans or whether or not oil is traded in dollars.

To a guy like me, who understands how traders and investors think, to say we should ignore the US economy in the valuation (ie. supply/demand) of the US dollar completely invalidates the exercise. The reason why I get so worked up about the "war because of oil in euros" thing is because the people who are making it appear to not understand the causes of supply and demand for currencies, capital flows nor context.

You are correct when you mention money creation, ie debt. But, as I stated several posts ago, the debasement of the US currency has also lead to a debasement of the Euro, the pound, the yen, the yuan, and to a lesser extent, the loonie.
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
Toro, as for the World Bank, im going to need you to help me find where they state their loan denomination is not only in dolalrs, as i can not find it.

Unless proof is given, we do not know for sure how they proceed. It believe it is USD, like the IMF, but we must prove it.

Huck

I posted it a few posts back. Its right there, with the links and everything.
 

Huck

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Jan 25, 2006
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Toro said:
Huck said:
Toro, as for the World Bank, im going to need you to help me find where they state their loan denomination is not only in dolalrs, as i can not find it.

Unless proof is given, we do not know for sure how they proceed. It believe it is USD, like the IMF, but we must prove it.

Huck

I posted it a few posts back. Its right there, with the links and everything.


hmmm, yeah, i saw the annual report,. but it may not mean what we think. The loans may still be denominated in USD, like the IMF. we need textual description of their value process... im pretty sure its in USD< but we need proof.
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
Toro said:
Huck said:
Toro, as for the World Bank, im going to need you to help me find where they state their loan denomination is not only in dolalrs, as i can not find it.

Unless proof is given, we do not know for sure how they proceed. It believe it is USD, like the IMF, but we must prove it.

Huck

I posted it a few posts back. Its right there, with the links and everything.


hmmm, yeah, i saw the annual report,. but it may not mean what we think. The loans may still be denominated in USD, like the IMF. we need textual description of their value process... im pretty sure its in USD< but we need proof.

http://www.worldbank.org/annualreport/2004/pdf/ibrd.pdf

Further down the annual report, we see the following loans

2004 adjustable loans by currency

In Euros - $6.2 billion.
In Yen - $5.9 billion
In dollars - $5.2 billion
In other currencies - $1.5 billion


It doesn't get any clearer than that.
 

Toro

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
What this means is that every country in the world, stocks up American dollars (called reserves) and the USD now makes up around 70% of all world currency reserves. It is then said that the US dollar is the main reserve currency.

Again, to reiterated two flaws of logic in this theory, as I've pointed out, the capital flows arising from oil is relatively small compared both to trade and the economy. Thus, currency reserves are not being built because of oil. Second, oil is already transacted in other currencies. I'll just re-post what I wrote before.

Toro said:
There is a difference between a "trade" and a "transaction"

All trades are done in dollars. Transactions are not, however.

What is the difference?

Let me give you an example. If an Italian oil company is selling to a Swiss gas marketing company, the reference point for the trade will be in dollars, i.e. buying 100,000 barrels @ US$60. However, when the actual transaction takes place, the mechanics of it will be to swap swiss francs for euros, not swiss francs for dollars for euros. The refrence point will be the dollar but then the actual transaction will have nothing to do with dollars. Why? Because there is a cost for transacting currencies. When you transact currencies, you pay a broker and you also pay a spread. That costs money. It is a cost companies want to avoid (and one reason why the EU adopted the euro in the first place). So why would a company want to do it twice if it can be avoided? If a Swiss and an Italian company are transacting, why would they want the added cost of trading in dollars when it is completely unnecessary?

Of course, when companies sell into the futures markets, they are transacting in dollars, but the net effect of it is small. If this same transaction occurred in the futures market, there is a corresponding buy and sell transaction. No actual dollars change hands. However, it does make the US dollar slightly more liquid, so there is a benefit to the US dollar.

Finally, msot commodities are referenced in dollars - oil, gas, nickel, zinc, copper, gold, silver, sugar, cofffee, etc. Its convenient to do so. Its difficult enough when you have different futures contracts on the same product, ie. March wheat, June wheat, August wheat, etc. Trading it in a bunch of other currencies gets more confusing.

CanCon thread
 

havater

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Very interesting subject this thing about the Euro and oil as opposed to the US Dollar and oil. There seems to be a war of sorts going on as to which will win out, the “Petro-Dollar” or the “Petro-Euro”.

I am no expert on economics, and especially not very well versed in all the aspects of the oil-Dollar-Euro-economics. However, having followed closely the lead-up to the Iraq war, and the war itself, as well as the reconstruction work and establishment of a democratic government since the war, I see a factor that seems to be overlooked.

Of course involved in all of this has been the US – which as everyone knows uses the US Dollar, and just as involved, but not as directly or visible, or as readily held up to media scrutiny, has been the major European countries that now use the Euro, along with others that could benefit by the Euro being used in place of the Dollar for oil purchases.

I see an important factor regarding the Dollar as payment for Middle East oil as opposed to the Euro for payment of ME oil. Many have said in recent years, and especially again now in respect to Iran’s stated intention to perhaps change over to only selling oil in exchange for the Euro, that a major switch-over to using the Euro in place of the Dollar, would be devastating for the US economy.

Much has also been said about the fact Saddam tried to switch over to the same kind of scenario, and that this was a major reason for the US going to war – to prevent the downturn in the US dollar against the Euro by securing virtual control over the oil in Iraq.

This may be true, or may be false, depending on the perspective one takes, and or which mantra from both sides one listens to and believes. In general, the extreme left-wing anti-war crowd will believe the notion that the US was out to secure Iraqi oil for themselves, while the extreme right-wing crowd will readily push the notion of the US having other reasons, like the security of the region and the ultimate economic security of the world in general due to not allowing major oil reserves and supplies to be taken over by rogue nations. And some of us in between the extremes somewhere, don't know what to believe half the time.

In looking at both sides, although admittedly leaning toward the right-wing side as far as the war and reasons for removing Saddam Hussein, I see something that seems to be over-looked – at least I have not read, and cannot find, anything along this line. What I am talking about is that if we look at those that have pushed vigorously for the Euro, and then pushed Iraq earlier, and Iran lately, to adopt a “Petro-Euro” system for Middle East oil purchases, instead of the “Petro-Dollar” as has been the norm, then we can see another side of the Iraq invasion coin.

Now, even though such a switch to the Euro would affect the US and possibly trigger some kind of economic downturn as the Dollar loses ground to the Euro, there is the seemingly overlooked other side of the coin – that of the European push to switch to the Euro by making deals with Saddam while sanctions were in place, and therefore pushing for a lifting of the Sanctions and removal of UN inspectors.

If one honestly looks at the situation leading up to the war, one can see the jockeying of positions regarding Europe, led mainly by France and Russia on the one side, and the US on the other, as to whether Saddam was or was not a threat to the region worthy of removal. In this respect, all during the period of UN sanctions, the one thing both factions (European or US/UK) did totally agree on, was the passing of many UN resolutions regarding Iraq’s requirements to comply with resolutions to destroy all programs and facilities and stockpiles of WMD.

I won’t go into that any more than that because the point of this is that if some say the US was bound to secure Iraqi oil in order to bolster the Dollar by preventing or reversing the trend toward the Petro-Euro in place of the Petro-Dollar, then why can we not see and make the same claim that the European effort was to push for the Petro-Euro, by trying to see to it that Iraq gave the appearance of having complied with the UN resolutions and therefore put up a case for removal of sanctions and inspections.

If things had gone their way, Saddam would still be in power, and Iraq would now be clear of sanctions, clear of inspections, selling oil in exchange for the Euro – guaranteeing a more secure economic well-being for France, Russia, and other European countries, as well as China, and India, etc..

Some might counter, what is wrong with those countries looking out for their own interests, and of course that begs the counterbalancing question as to what is wrong with the US looking out for it’s interests – and of course the more important question of who, if either side, was looking out for the world community interests in general.

Here is where the deciding factor that should have prevailed if the World Community had looked at the whole picture and saw that the major difference between the motives of the two sides was this: By agreement by both sides all through the 1990s and into the early 2000s, Saddam was a threat and had to be curtailed in his desire and intentions to develop WMD and Nuclear weapons, so at the time of the impending invasion of Iraq, was he still a threat?

What changed so suddenly and miraculously mere months prior to the onset of the invasion of Iraq? Had Saddam really complied? Was he really no longer a threat? Or had those on the side of the Petro-Euro, manoeuvred, or helped Saddam manoeuvre things to give the appearance of having complied, even though everyone – that is everyone on both sides of the Dollar/Euro issue had right up to that time, agreed that he had never and would never abandon his plans and programs for developing WMD and Nuclear weapons as soon as was possible.

So before we blame the US completely and solely for having removed Saddam because of their own interest respecting oil and the Dollar, we have to also look at the other side of the coin, and picture what the situation would have been if France et al had gotten their way and lifted sanctions and inspections, and supported Saddam in the Petro-Dollar scheme, while at the same time disregarding the fact they knew his main interest was in pursuing weapons with which he could overrun neighbouring oil-rich countries – which would have a most devastating world economic impact.

So who is blameless in all of this? None! IMO… but.. morally, and in regard to what would be the best for the world at large, economically in regard to making sure there would be a secure oil supply from the Middle East, I am thankful the side of the Petro-Dollar won out.. for now at least.

And as Iran enters the picture in much the same scenario, both in regards to the Petro-Euro vs the Petro-Dollar, as well as regarding their stated intention of developing Nuclear weapons with which there is every reason to believe would upset once again the security and stability respecting world oil supply from the Middle East, we can watch and see the two sides once again do their jockeying for position I expect.

Let’s keep our eyes on what stand those same European and other countries will take this time – we know already what stand the US and presumably the UK will take.
 

Huck

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Good post havater, we are currently trying to prove if there may be a relation between the euro and the wars.


As for which side is right or not, i think you are right. No one is right. It is simply a political struggle for dominance, from both the USA and the european / russian / middle eastern countries.

They are all using deceipful techniques to ensure their own selfish properity...
 

Toro

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
So, to stock up on US dollars, countries must rush to make goods and export them to the US and get US dollars, but the US, they can print the money as much as they want (relative to import offer). This means that they get stuff for free.

In any normal country, printing too much money will dilute its value and create inflation, people will refuse to buy it, it is why it self regulates. But the USA can print a whole bunch to match the imports and every country just will keep buying it by selling more goods, because they need it to buy important commodities and regulate their own domestic currency exchange rates and economies. Here is an example:

If Canada wants US dollars to buy important oil and repay loans, it must sell, say maple syrup to the Americans. Obviously, someone must work for this maple syrup. The Americans, they can make up the money they give and buy your goods. So, you give hard earned maple syrup and get USD, but the Americans, they basically got it for free.

This is an economic fallacy and is simply false. This is the stuff that drives me nuts Huck, and its why I say that the people who make this argument do not understand basic economics.

America cannot "just print money." This leads to inflation and the value of the dollar falls. This is the main reason why the dollar has falled from $0.85 to $1.30 per euro. So, simply put, if the quantity of money doubles, and there has been no concommited change in economic output, inflation doubles, and the value of the currency gets cut in half. The loonie would rise from C$1=US$1 to C$1=US$2. If the American wanted to buy the maple syrup, and if the cost was C$5 a bottle, what he could have purchased for US$5 will now cost him US$10. It doesn't matter if the US dollar is the reserve currency or not. That's a big reason why the price of oil has more than doubled in US dollars the past five years while it is about the same in gold.

This is Econ 101, the first few weeks into the class.

But Huck makes an interesting point when he says

"regulate their own domestic currency exchange rates and economies. "

Yup. The world has followed America's lead and debased their own currencies. The net effect of that is to create asset inflation. Want to know why the value of your house has gone up a lot this decade? This is the reason. Its also a big reason why gold, oil, zinc, nickle and various other commodities have risen.

Huck said:
The Americans are not in such as need to acquire foreign currency since the USD is the currency to have in the world anyways, so the export much less than other countries do.

Though Huck is correct when he says the US does not need to hold as much foreign reserves as other countries (though interestingly enough, something like one half of American reserves are in gold), he has the tail wagging the dog. Its not the composition of reserves that drives international trade but the other way around.

Think about it.

When you buy stuff, how often do you wonder where it is from? Are you doing a conversion calculation in your head, when looking at a price of an import in Canadian dollars? Of course not. You don't care. You'll make your decision based on whether or not you desire the product and if the price is right. That's the decision. If you do choose to buy that import, that money then has to be converted back to the importer's currency, which means that country will now have earned foreign exchange, and its foreign exchange balance rises.

Huck said:
Anyways, for most currencies in the world, it is not advantageous to buy stuff in USD again because of conversion, so they buy less USA exports than they are willing to export. It is basically a rush for the American dollar. This creates an immense USA trade deficit that is up to 60% the exports.

Again, this is false, for the reasons I just stated. The cost of converting the currency will be built into the final sticker price you see at the store. The "conversion" cost is the commission and spread the producer pays. This is small to miniscule for the final product.
 

Huck

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Toro, it maters not which currency the oil is transacted. What matters is with which currency it is benchmarked.

Again, simple example: if we both have 100$, you USD, me CAD. I can buy oil in CAd no problem, but the problme is the loss from the US benchmark, which has a conversion rate of 1.13 USD.


If all oil was marked 1$ CAD< you could buy it IN USD< and you would get 1.13$ value for it.

IT is this win / lose situation that forces negative converison currencies to use the USD. Also, in USD, prices are constant, with 1$ USD< you can alsways buy 1 unit of oil. in other currencies, the quantity of units varies with the rate, which is not desirable.


OR, a country could buy oil in their own currency, but to ensure stability, would need to stock on US dollars to ensure parity with it.

IOn any case, they accumulate US dolalrs. It is not a coincidence that 70% of world reserves are USD.
 

havater

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
Good post havater, we are currently trying to prove if there may be a relation between the euro and the wars.
I think there has to be. How could there not be. That said, that does not necessarily equate to the basic reason or motivation for war is to prevent the Euro from taking over as the currency of choice for oil barter.
As for which side is right or not, i think you are right. No one is right. It is simply a political struggle for dominance, from both the USA and the european / russian / middle eastern countries.

They are all using deceipful techniques to ensure their own selfish properity...
Right, and so from the outside (sort of) looking in, we see the two sides, and their reasons and motivations regarding their own economic stability, but don't we have to look beyond those two sides and see which, if any, is moving in the direction that best serves the economic stability of the world community at large?
 

Huck

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Jan 25, 2006
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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Toro, thank you for your reminder of Econ 101, by with all due respect, I believe your view remained overly simplistic.


Lets see:

First, the US only scenario:


If a country has a certain amount of money and prints more money, as you said the value will diminish by effect of dilution. This “may” cause the investors to be reluctant to invest in this country due to this. (note that the keyword is “may” and will be important later on). To stimulate investors, the banks will increase the interest rates, which will in turn increase inflation. So, here, you are right.


Now, let’s take the scenario of the USA and the world hegemony. Because of the hegemony we discussed above, world countries are more than willing to sell goods to the USA to get USD for commodities, local currency value and loans. So, in example, Canada will sell steel to the USA and get USD. If the USA print new money and use this exact amount to buy the steel, it could devalue the money. BUT, what happens is that this new dollar does not remain American wned (and devalues its own currency), it becomes Canadian money converted in USD. So, it is Canada’s (and assists in ensuring the value of the CAD). Plus, we must remember that the USA, now have steel. So, they can use this steel, to create goods which will then be sold for more money. In this case, world investors may not be as much afraid to invest in the USA and the interest rates will not need to rise. As long as this mechanism is maintained, the inflation will not occur. This mechanism is currently obvious as despite a trade deficit and high debt, the USA still remain fairly well and imports still keep rolling, as much as investors interest. Combined with the help of Asia buying us bonds, things are doing pretty well…
 

Huck

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

havater, in the advent that we have no economic solution and that we must absolutely trade one power for another, yes,
 

havater

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Huck said:
havater, in the advent that we have no economic solution and that we must absolutely trade one power for another, yes,
I think another aspect of the economic situation regarding the US and the Dollar, and oil barter, and the Euro and oil barter, is the notion of trading goods and services for oil, by-passing in effect the currency reserve question and the hold it has on those countries holding US Dollars in order to not fall by the wayside in their trade with the US.

Has not Hugo Chavez of Venezuela been engaged in these kind of barter deals for trading its oil with other Latin American countries including Cuba? And does this not mean that by doing so, the US is missing out on its usual piece of the pie?

And on that note, didn’t Chavez also push for OPEC to take advantage of high-tech electronic barter and bi-lateral exchanges of its oil, especially with developing countries?

What effect does this kind of barter have on the whole US economic picture – and those wanting to use the Euro for oil as well I guess?

Sorry about all the questions, but these are important too I think. One more.. Could it be that moving toward more of this kind of barter for oil, might diffuse to some degree the tensions regarding the Petro-Dollar vs Petro-Euro war, and help to remove it as an excuse or reason, or even the accusation that any war with Iran now is about the Dollar/Euro thing, instead of about the threat it poses in regard to Nuclear weapons?

Edited last sentence for clarity (I hope!) :wink:
 

Huck

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Re: The Euro vs Dollar Conspiracy Theory: part II - "T

Here is how what i said about inflantion and devaluaiton links with the euro danger:


If the euro was to become an important reserve currency, most countries would seek to release their USD (or convert to euros) (some of the 3 trillion USD in total (70% of reserves)) back to the USA. IF all of this happened too quickly, the USA would be flooded with US dollars, and THERE the value would dramatically drecrease due to dramatic dillution. This, very obviously would be catastrophic.

Of course, this combins with the other effects to trade and surplus i explained earlier.

does this make sense to you toro?