Texas Considers Executing Repeat Child Rapists

[Josephine]

J - compassion does not mean blindness to another's faults or evil deeds: quite the opposite. You cannot have compassion for what you do not know. Compassion comes from the latin "compati" - "suffer with." This means that to have compassion you have to comprehend the circumstances of the other - to see past one's own selfish world view.

Before I condemn someone for their evil act (and yes Humanists can use a word like "evil" without all the spiritual stuff that normally comes with it) it behooves me to understand them. It might justify imposing an even more severe punishment.

And like love or thoughtfulness or anger, the more we practice compassion, the more we have.

Pangloss

I understand about compassion. I understand about empathy.

But, for me, there are only so many times you can look into the eyes of a molester/rapist and keep your heart open. There are only so many times you can offer forgiveness. You can only hear so many stories of 3 year olds being raped, or 4 year olds being molested by their father.
This is my work and this is the world I live in. There is nothing wrong with my viewpoint or my compassion...which is more than abundant.

 

[Josephine]

Ok, Ten Penny -

I understand the continuation of suffering is impossible when you are dead. . .but the idea that the total cessation of life is somehow preferable than any kind of insult to the person is stretching things way too far.

Ten Penny, are you saying that child murderers should have less of a penalty than the rapists?

Or perhaps you are saying that once raped, the child should be euthanised to prevent any further suffering? Perhaps we should just give suicide kits to the children so they can decide to end it all. Maybe the best thing to do to the Holocaust survivors would have been to finish them off. Silly Ten Penny.

Tell you what - ask someone who was raped - someone who was abused over a period of years when they were a child - if they'd like you to shoot them in the head. Ask them ten years after they escaped the horror, when they've put their lives back together, after herculean effort, if they'd now like to die.

Heck, why ask, if you're so sure? Go shoot 'em now - find a support group and open fire.

I should like to point out just what you wrote:

Murder is easier on the victim.

Foolish generalization void of thought or compassion or understanding.

Pangloss

I believe that was meant was: That instant of victimization is over quite quickly for the victim of murder...rape/molestation is for a lifetime.
No, survivors should not be killed...foolish to suggest (even as an example to prove a point). A lot of survivors continue on to fight for other survivors/victims.
I am a survivor of abuse. I survived and am doing okay. There was a long stretch of time where I wasn't. The effects have not disappeared. I will always feel the effects of my abuse...but I am alive. I recognize this and appreciate it. But I also recognize that many many people do not survive their abuse. They destroy themselves, or kill themselves. Childhood abuse is not just life altering. It's not like you remember the person you were before. This is all you remember...from the beginning.

Anyway...sorry...my point is that while I am greatful I was not murdered, I understand and appreciate the destruction of sexual abuse. Some call it a murder of the soul. I am alive, and I count my blessings.

 

[TenPenny]

Ok, Ten Penny -

I understand the continuation of suffering is impossible when you are dead. . .but the idea that the total cessation of life is somehow preferable than any kind of insult to the person is stretching things way too far.

Ten Penny, are you saying that child murderers should have less of a penalty than the rapists?

Or perhaps you are saying that once raped, the child should be euthanised to prevent any further suffering? Perhaps we should just give suicide kits to the children so they can decide to end it all. Maybe the best thing to do to the Holocaust survivors would have been to finish them off. Silly Ten Penny.

Tell you what - ask someone who was raped - someone who was abused over a period of years when they were a child - if they'd like you to shoot them in the head. Ask them ten years after they escaped the horror, when they've put their lives back together, after herculean effort, if they'd now like to die.

Heck, why ask, if you're so sure? Go shoot 'em now - find a support group and open fire.

I should like to point out just what you wrote:

Murder is easier on the victim.

Foolish generalization void of thought or compassion or understanding.

Pangloss

Perhaps you should stop trying to invent what I am saying.
Molestation of a child usually results in a child with lifelong mental health issues, which are generally quite severe, and sometimes results in an adult who molests in turn. A child who is murdered, on the other hand, does not go through this. That is why I said two things: One, murder is easier on the victim. If you have the ability to read and think, you can grasp that point, whether or not you agree with it, I don't care.
Two, molesting a child is the worst crime I can imagine, BECAUSE it results in a human with long suffering issues, and sometimes repeats the behaviour. It perpetuates the harm.
Now, feel free to invent all sorts of other meanings in your own mind, but don't ascribe them to me. I'm not suggesting victims should be killed or anything else. I am, however, suggesting that I have no issues with executing child molesters. And I mean that sincerely.

 

[normbc9]

Ten Penny,
Well said and adeptly worded too. Those victims who survive are called, "The wreckage." There has to be a reason why the professional behavioral counselors have adopted this term. I'll bet it comes from their assessment of the damage done psychologically. Rarely does a victim ever acheive a 100% come back from this type of trauma. The other only suffers if they choose to reflect on the acts. Most are so sick they can't see anything but the continung wish to try to repeat the violent act again.

 

[Pangloss]

Ten Penny,
Well said and adeptly worded too. Those victims who survive are called, "The wreckage." There has to be a reason why the professional behavioral counselors have adopted this term. I'll bet it comes from their assessment of the damage done psychologically. Rarely does a victim ever acheive a 100% come back from this type of trauma. The other only suffers if they choose to reflect on the acts. Most are so sick they can't see anything but the continung wish to try to repeat the violent act again.

So, does anybody here actually know what they are talking about?

Tell me, normbc9 - where can I find some published item where the victim calls themselves "the wreckage?" Any interview will do. If professional behavioural counselors have adopted this term - cite it for me. I call B.S. Show me a citation.

Childhood Survivors of Childhood Sexual Abuse, a British Columbia group, helped produce a series of interviews with me when I had a radio show in Vancouver. An invitation went out to every member of the group, and several different folks were interviewed over a period of a few weeks.

Nobody referred to themselves or the other members of the group as "the wreckage."

Were they suicidal? Not particularly - oh to be sure, there were plenty of attempts - but they were, according to those who had tried and were talking to me - mostly of the "cry for help" variety. Were they really screwed up - yeah, many of them were.

"Rarely does a victim ever achieve 100% come back from this type of trauma." What the hell are you talking about? I'll be generous and say you mean they "got better" or some equally vague term.

Again, I'll go from what I've read and what so many of those I've interviewed have to say: like any other bad thing in your life (mugging, car accident, public humiliation, death of a friend), the thing is never totally "gotten over." It becomes a part of your life, shaping who you are - for good and for ill - and should never be forgotten. The further you grow away from the bad thing, the less important it becomes and the less you think about it. That is a pretty broad tendency, not a law.

Some people never get past it. Sad, tragic. Truly. For every bad thing in the world, there are people who will never get past it.

Sure, most pedophiles were once victims. But it is most certainly not true that every victim of a pedophile becomes one - quite the opposite. History is not predestination.

normbc9, as I've written before, everybody is entitled to their own opinions - but not their own facts.

Pangloss

Postscript: I trust this post will not be twisted by anyone to accuse me of apologizing for or excusing pedophiles or other abusers. This post is about being accurate and knowing the facts when we write something we claim to be fact.
- p

 

[Josephine]

So, does anybody here actually know what they are talking about?

Tell me, normbc9 - where can I find some published item where the victim calls themselves "the wreckage?" Any interview will do. If professional behavioural counselors have adopted this term - cite it for me. I call B.S. Show me a citation.

Childhood Survivors of Childhood Sexual Abuse, a British Columbia group, helped produce a series of interviews with me when I had a radio show in Vancouver. An invitation went out to every member of the group, and several different folks were interviewed over a period of a few weeks.

Nobody referred to themselves or the other members of the group as "the wreckage."

Were they suicidal? Not particularly - oh to be sure, there were plenty of attempts - but they were, according to those who had tried and were talking to me - mostly of the "cry for help" variety. Were they really screwed up - yeah, many of them were.

"Rarely does a victim ever achieve 100% come back from this type of trauma." What the hell are you talking about? I'll be generous and say you mean they "got better" or some equally vague term.

Again, I'll go from what I've read and what so many of those I've interviewed have to say: like any other bad thing in your life (mugging, car accident, public humiliation, death of a friend), the thing is never totally "gotten over." It becomes a part of your life, shaping who you are - for good and for ill - and should never be forgotten. The further you grow away from the bad thing, the less important it becomes and the less you think about it. That is a pretty broad tendency, not a law.

Some people never get past it. Sad, tragic. Truly. For every bad thing in the world, there are people who will never get past it.

Sure, most pedophiles were once victims. But it is most certainly not true that every victim of a pedophile becomes one - quite the opposite. History is not predestination.

normbc9, as I've written before, everybody is entitled to their own opinions - but not their own facts.

Pangloss

Postscript: I trust this post will not be twisted by anyone to accuse me of apologizing for or excusing pedophiles or other abusers. This post is about being accurate and knowing the facts when we write something we claim to be fact.
- p

Well said pangloss. What was the show you were doing for these interviews? I also have never heard of "wreckage", I've never been called that or called myself that, nor has any of my counsellors even mentioned that term.
Oh, and I had read on the Canada justice website sometime ago, that the 40% of pedophiles were molested themselves...scary number.

 

[Pangloss]

J -

If I told you the name of my show, I'd be telling you my name.

Keep in mind that 40% figure. There's something important to remember:

Pedophiles who were assaulted by a pedophile: 40%

People who were assaulted by a pedophile who later became pedophiles: much less than 40% (I don't, I'm afraid, know the actual number, but I seem to remember it was quite low).

Pangloss

 

[Josephine]

J -

If I told you the name of my show, I'd be telling you my name.

Keep in mind that 40% figure. There's something important to remember:

Pedophiles who were assaulted by a pedophile: 40%

People who were assaulted by a pedophile who later became pedophiles: much less than 40% (I don't, I'm afraid, know the actual number, but I seem to remember it was quite low).

Pangloss

Oh, I'm with you on that one! I'm sure that number is quite low!

 

[Pangloss]

Two, molesting a child is the worst crime I can imagine, BECAUSE it results in a human with long suffering issues, and sometimes repeats the behaviour.

I am, however, suggesting that I have no issues with executing child molesters. And I mean that sincerely.

TP: So it's the worst crime you can imagine. That would be a function of your imagination, and of no consequence to anyone but yourself.

How about executing the innocent? With all the cases of wrongful conviction we are discovering (and how would we ever know if we found all of them?) it would be inevitable that we murdered innocent people.

Oh, that's right - murder isn't as bad. How could I have forgotten?

Pangloss

 

[normbc9]

Pangloss,
Here is your reference you asked for. It is a 1978 Macmillan publication written by Janet Bode and it is in use tioday at the Rape Crisis Treatment Center in my county. The title is, "How to Cope: With the Medical, Emotional and Legal Cosequences of rape." It is also recommended reading by the bothe UC Berkley and Stanford Universities School of Human Behavioral Sciences. I see there are copies avaiolable in most major libraries and the reference to the "wreckage" is found in the thrd paragraph on pg. 166. In the analysis of the suicides occuring in this area the single main cause is the effects of a violent rape victim eho cannot over come the horror of the traumatic event. That is from the State of California Commission on Rape Recovery. Their reports are available at Health&HumanServices@ca.gov

 

[unclepercy]

Mr. P,
Texas passed that bill with no trouble whatsoever. The laugh is on you! :lol: My home state.....
DON'T MESS WITH KIDS! That was the idea...and I am not for protecting the criminal.
I just agreed with ITN and made a silly comment about pork and beans. Obviously you
lack an ability to discern humor. All you want to do is talk something to death by arguing
and asserting your superiority. Doesn't work on me. Percy

 

[lena]

pang do you have children?

 

[normbc9]

I am elated that Texas has passed that into law. That state leads this nation in innovative thinking and I'd vote for a clone of huntsville in every state if it were possible. the only other law innovator I have seen and support whole heartedly is Sheriff Joe Arpaio from maricopa County, AZ. Joe's guests rarely are left with nothing to do. An idle mind is the devils workshop and Sheriff Joe sees to it they have plenty to do. The TV menu is a thriller too. Jimmy Swaggert all day long. Thats not bad and the folks get to wear black and white striped outer clothing with pink underwear. That ought to make a soul rethink doing bad things in Maricopa County or Child raping in Texas. Lets just put down the crazies before they kill or harm anymore of our law abiding citizens.

 

[Pangloss]

pang do you have children?

None of your freaking business.

My arguments stand or fall on their merits - who I am is irrelevant. You could also ask if I was ever raped; again I'd say none of your freaking business.

I will judge your arguments based on what you write here; not on your biography. I request the same courtesy in return.

Pangloss

 

[Pangloss]

Mr. P,
Texas passed that bill with no trouble whatsoever. The laugh is on you! :lol: My home state.....
DON'T MESS WITH KIDS! That was the idea...and I am not for protecting the criminal.
I just agreed with ITN and made a silly comment about pork and beans. Obviously you
lack an ability to discern humor. All you want to do is talk something to death by arguing
and asserting your superiority. Doesn't work on me. Percy

Poor Uncle:

The laugh is on me, huh? All I see is Texas, murderous, reactive, racist Texas, has come up with yet another way to kill people.

Texas murders the mentally infirm, Percy - are you proud of that too?

Texas murders more people in the name of justice than any other state - does that make your chest swell with pride at a job well done?

Tell me, after all this killing, is Texas a safer state than all the others?

Why is it, Percy, that if a black man is convicted of killing a white man, he is several times more likely to be murdered by the state than if the races were reversed?

All I want to do is talk something to death and assert my superiority? First, who the hell are you to say what I do or do not want? You a mind reader of some kind?

Second, as to superiority - I do believe the facts are on my side. And yes, as I have never murdered somebody nor ever endorsed murder nor taken pleasure in murder, I feel justified in a claim of superiority to the bloodthirsty vengeance-seekers.

Percy - what about the innocent that are killed? The wrongly convicted? What happens to your moral superiority then?

I bet you won't answer these questions. And if you do, I bet it'll be with weasel words.

Pangloss

 

[Pangloss]

Norm:

I will look for the Janet Bode reference when I am at the library tomorrow.

Still, if it is the only place I can find it in academic literature, and nobody that I know says they use the term, I will still call it hyperbole, and somewhat inaccurate.

Just not BS.

Thanks for the reference.

Pangloss

 

[unclepercy]

Poor Uncle:

**The first thing that people do when threatened by a statement of fact
that they cannot refute is to cast doubt on the other party's credibility. Well done below... BUT REJECTED.**

The laugh is on me, huh? All I see is Texas, murderous, reactive, racist Texas, has come up with yet another way to kill people.

Texas murders the mentally infirm, Percy - are you proud of that too?

**Throwing more aspersions does not work. Rather, it weakens your stand and such febble attempts at argument are embarrassing to you.**

Texas murders more people in the name of justice than any other state - does that make your chest swell with pride at a job well done?

**It takes more water for 10 gallons of koolaid than for one gallon. It's that simple.**

Tell me, after all this killing, is Texas a safer state than all the others?

**Killing? Have you looked at how long a man spends on death row before he actually makes it to the
execution? Please....we give them plenty of time to squirm and manuever.**

Why is it, Percy, that if a black man is convicted of killing a white man, he is several times more likely to be murdered by the state than if the races were reversed?

**And now you throw racism in my race - what a desperate, pitiful attempt on your part. Completely off-topic. This discussion is about Texas and the death penalty for repeat child molesters.**

All I want to do is talk something to death and assert my superiority? First, who the hell are you to say what I do or do not want? You a mind reader of some kind?

**A mind like yours is an open book. A picture book. No reading necessary.**

Second, as to superiority - I do believe the facts are on my side. And yes, as I have never murdered somebody nor ever endorsed murder nor taken pleasure in murder, I feel justified in a claim of superiority to the bloodthirsty vengeance-seekers.

**What facts? The laugh is still on you. No more whining. A repeat child molester deserves vengeance.**

Percy - what about the innocent that are killed? The wrongly convicted? What happens to your moral superiority then?

**In any filtration system, a few grounds get through. Nothing is 100%. I thought you knew that.**:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

I bet you won't answer these questions. And if you do, I bet it'll be with weasel words.

**You would know better than I about weasels.** Percy

Pangloss