Talk about N Korea

SaintLucifer

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Jul 10, 2006
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Re: RE: Talk about N Korea

MikeyDB said:
What would be the point of "agreeing" on anything with America????

See Free Trade

Who appointed the Yanks as world police with authority to tell nations who may or may not have nuclear weapons?

As soon as the U.S. destroys its nuclear arsenel then it might gain greater legitimacy than that of the only world power to have exterminated hundreds of thousands with nuclear weapons!

You are comparing the U.S.A. having nukes with North Korea doing the same? We all know there is no chance in Hell the U.S.A. would ever nuke anyone else unless it was in their own defence. Kim Ding Dong psycho on the other hand has threatened his neighbours with nukes. Do you see where you are uttering your remarkable statements in this post? You do so because you are free to do so. You may now approach a U.S. missle and kiss it hard for protecting that freedom of yours. Do not ever compare North Korean nukes with those of the U.S.A. North Korea wants nukes for offensive use. The U.S.A. built nukes to defend the free world from the likes of the former Soviet Union. We all know had it not been for those U.S. nukes we would all today be living under the hammer and sickle. Now I would ask that you lean back and think about the errors of this post you made.
 

SaintLucifer

Electoral Member
Jul 10, 2006
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MikeyDB said:
Published on Sunday, March 10, 2002 by the Associated Press
Targeting Civilians
Museum Recalls Tokyo Firebombing
A survivor of the U.S. attack, which killed 100,000, started the project to educate younger people.

by Mari Yamaguchi

TOKYO - When hundreds of American B-29 bombers sent waves of fire racing through Tokyo 57 years ago today, Katsumoto Saotome ran for his life, stumbling over burned corpses. All around him people were on fire, some of them his neighbors.
Now 69, Saotome recalled his narrow escape at the opening of a museum dedicated to the firestorm on March 10, 1945, which killed more than 100,000 civilians and razed nearly half of Tokyo in the final months of World War II.


Aftermath of US Firebombing of Tokyo

"Many of us who survived the brutality of war are getting old," said Saotome, the curator. "We have a responsibility to tell the younger generation firsthand stories of our experience, and we need to get started while we are still healthy and able."

The War Damage Archive Center houses photographs, drawings, and personal effects contributed by survivors. The displays - including a teacup melted into a shapeless lump - testify to the fury of the flames that consumed what was then a city of mostly wooden buildings.

Saotome, a novelist, began planning the museum two years ago to document the raid for history and promote peace. He raised $828,000 million from survivors and other private donors.

Though later overshadowed by the mushroom clouds over Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the firebombing of Tokyo wrought devastation comparable to that caused by the two atomic attacks, Saotome said. Historians estimate that 140,000 people were killed in Hiroshima and 70,000 in Nagasaki.

Among the survivors who gathered to remember yesterday was an American B-29 navigator who was in a prison camp near Tokyo's Imperial Palace when the bombs began to rain down.

Ray "Hap" Halloran had been captured several weeks earlier after his bomber was shot down over Tokyo. He parachuted out and was unhurt.

The 80-year-old retired business executive from San Francisco said he attended the museum opening to convey a message of reconciliation to the Japanese.

Soon after the B-29s flew over the city, he recalled, the sky turned red and he could hear the screams of people outside on the street.

"I prayed for myself, and I also prayed for them, too," he said.

Copyright 2002 Associated Press

###

Where is your information regarding the sneak attack on Pearl Harbour? Where is your information stating that the Japanese committed the world's worst atrocities against their prisoners? I would suggest you read up on the Long March. My uncle's father was killed as a prison of war at the hands of the Japanese in the Long March. This was a death march. Prisoners of the Japanese were the most poorly-treated of them all.

Why in this post do you neglect to mention that it was the Japanese who started the war and in so doing committed atrocities the Americans had never even thought possible? If you feel so bad for how Japan suffered and now how their enemies the Allies suffered then perhaps it would behoove you to make a move to Japan yes? You seem to think the West is a bunch of murderers. I would suggest perhaps it is not a good idea for you to live amongst murderers? Why not go live with your beloved Japanese? Oh wait. You can't because you are GAIJIN. They would never allow you to live there. Oh well. So much for that idea.

Most interesting. I just noticed the name of the author who wrote the article. Now that is funny. She is Japanese. Quel surprise!

 

SaintLucifer

Electoral Member
Jul 10, 2006
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Re: RE: Talk about N Korea

Colpy said:
MikeyDB said:
No one not even the Russians or Pol Pot, Not the Japanese Imperial court or any other group can hold a candle to the devastation the good ole USA has inflicted on the world's innocent people.The USA has set the benchmark in killing innocents and always has. Stalin Hitler and Mussolini were pikers compared to Curtis Lemay and several other American figures.

Would you like me to review more American history for you ITN?

SPARE ME!

Do you have ANY idea what you are saying?

No, you can't.

Mao Tse-Tung's lovely regime in China may have killed as many as 70 MILLION people.

Stalin purposely starved to death 8 to 10 million in the Ukraine alone.

Pol Pot murdered 25% of the country of Cambodia......some 3 million people.

This sort of stupid comment is like shooting yourself in the foot......when you go off on some rant so unrealistic, so tinged with unreasoning hatred, you soil the very ground you stand on and discredit those who nominally agree with you.

Thank you.

Carry on.

Nice to see we have somebody who knows what the Hell they are talking about!
 

MikeyDB

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Jun 9, 2006
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Whether the author was Japanese or Martian, the fact remains that the bombing was true and carried out by the US.

Provide me if you would where the number of atrocities committed by anyone translates as permission to kill hundreds of thousands of men women and children...ie. NON-MILITARY

America…. murder central.

Joseph Stalin starved twenty million people, Adolf Hitler gassed millions of Jews, Pol Pot killed two million; there are in fact nearly too many instances of genocide predicated on everything from race to religious belief for any accurate assessment capable of conveying how tenuous the human grasp of morality actually is.

Simple statistics provided by bodies stacked like chord wood certainly form some foundation of some “factual basis” in the process of determining how horrific human beings treat one another but the whole story behind millions upon millions of deaths is poorly served when this is the only methodology employed.

We’ll likely never know how many Rwandans were killed while those most able to intervene did nothing. Similarly it’s unlikely that an absolute number of corpses generated out of the actions of murderous regimes all over the planet will ever be available.

We do know that the United States has sponsored both financially and militarily, many regimes in diverse locations around the planet and these regimes have been responsible for an untold and largely “un-tellable” numbers of victims.

We know that the wealthiest nation on earth has flexed its military and financial muscles in securing embargoes against far weaker nations with the result that many (hundreds of thousands if not millions) have succumbed to starvation, disease and illnesses exacerbated by limited access to medicines and food.

We’ll never know as an absolute how many people all over the surface of this planet have been victims to US supported regimes or how many have died as the result of Agent Orange, Depleted Uranium ordinance and a dozen other ‘measures’ decided by the US government as “necessary” in protecting American “interests”.

When I make an allegation like the US has set the benchmark in killing civilians, I’m not talking just about those who’ve languished under the rain of cruise missiles and “smart bombs”, but those whose deaths will never be attributed to the American thirst for power and dominance through mechanisms like the SOA and sponsorships purportedly and by turn it would appear to…. “thwart the Red Menace” and “protect America’s interests abroad” and every other imaginable excuse provided to lend the impression that when America kills….well that’s OK and “unfortunate but necessary” but when anyone else kills….why that’s just evil.

Perhaps someone can tell us how many those evil Koreans have killed?

Please post those numbers beside those available for Nicaragua, Chile, Indonesia, Sudan, Kosovo etc. etc.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Saint John, N.B.
Thank you SL.

BTW, I forgot to mention Nanking, the city in China where the Japanese Imperial Army best expressed Imperial benevolence........by bayonetting all the patients in hospitals there, and by pronouncing every female non-Japanese 12 or older was a "Free prostitutute" for Imperial soldiers............300,000 plus CIVILIANS died in the city AFTER it had surrendered to the Japanese..............

BTW, there was little or no resistance in Nanking...........

That is ONE city......
 

SaintLucifer

Electoral Member
Jul 10, 2006
324
0
16
MikeyDB said:
Whether the author was Japanese or Martian, the fact remains that the bombing was true and carried out by the US.

Provide me if you would where the number of atrocities committed by anyone translates as permission to kill hundreds of thousands of men women and children...ie. NON-MILITARY

America…. murder central.

Joseph Stalin starved twenty million people, Adolf Hitler gassed millions of Jews, Pol Pot killed two million; there are in fact nearly too many instances of genocide predicated on everything from race to religious belief for any accurate assessment capable of conveying how tenuous the human grasp of morality actually is.

Simple statistics provided by bodies stacked like chord wood certainly form some foundation of some “factual basis” in the process of determining how horrific human beings treat one another but the whole story behind millions upon millions of deaths is poorly served when this is the only methodology employed.

We’ll likely never know how many Rwandans were killed while those most able to intervene did nothing. Similarly it’s unlikely that an absolute number of corpses generated out of the actions of murderous regimes all over the planet will ever be available.

We do know that the United States has sponsored both financially and militarily, many regimes in diverse locations around the planet and these regimes have been responsible for an untold and largely “un-tellable” numbers of victims.

We know that the wealthiest nation on earth has flexed its military and financial muscles in securing embargoes against far weaker nations with the result that many (hundreds of thousands if not millions) have succumbed to starvation, disease and illnesses exacerbated by limited access to medicines and food.

We’ll never know as an absolute how many people all over the surface of this planet have been victims to US supported regimes or how many have died as the result of Agent Orange, Depleted Uranium ordinance and a dozen other ‘measures’ decided by the US government as “necessary” in protecting American “interests”.

When I make an allegation like the US has set the benchmark in killing civilians, I’m not talking just about those who’ve languished under the rain of cruise missiles and “smart bombs”, but those whose deaths will never be attributed to the American thirst for power and dominance through mechanisms like the SOA and sponsorships purportedly and by turn it would appear to…. “thwart the Red Menace” and “protect America’s interests abroad” and every other imaginable excuse provided to lend the impression that when America kills….well that’s OK and “unfortunate but necessary” but when anyone else kills….why that’s just evil.

Perhaps someone can tell us how many those evil Koreans have killed?

Please post those numbers beside those available for Nicaragua, Chile, Indonesia, Sudan, Kosovo etc. etc.

Please read this below and tell me once again how the North Koreans are the gentle souls you purport them to be.

The hidden gulag

Reports leak out of atrocities at North Korean labor camps

By Young Howard
May 15, 2005

* Horrific conditions and suffering make it the last worst place on Earth

Grandsons are condemned to life-long terms as slave laborers alongside their grandfathers, both equally helpless in the brutal surroundings. Prisoners are arbitrarily murdered by security guards. Women suffer from forced abortions at the hands of unlicensed doctors. Newborn babies are beaten to death. And sons and daughters are publicly executed in front of their mothers.


From 'Children of the Secret State'
/ Hardcash Productions
A starving child looking for food appears symbolic of the horrific conditions throughout North Korea. Of the 23 million people who live in the country, many go hungry.
This is not the story of an age of slavery from centuries past or of a survivor of Nazi Germany's Holocaust. It is what is happening at this moment inside the gulags of North Korea. The stories of gulag survivors are often too horrible to believe for the citizens of civilized countries. If one were to have the opportunity to speak with a survivor of a North Korean gulag, what they would reveal might be well beyond the threshold of the listener's imagination.

Chul Hwan Kang became the first of many defectors to follow when he arrived in South Korea in 1992 having survived detention in living hell. He served in the labor camp for political prisoners called "Yoduk" from the age of 9 to 19 for the sole reason that his grandfather was accused of criticizing the North Korean regime.

Kang recounts his experience as a young person in the camps stating that children would spend the day beginning at 6 o'clock in the morning working hard manual labor. The failure to accomplish the work quota may result in reduced food rations. At age 17, he was less than 150 centimeters tall (5 feet) and weighed about 40 kilograms (88 pounds). In fact, Kang's size was characteristic of all detained children, whose growth was universally retarded by continuous malnutrition and brutality. Girls were no taller than 145 centimeters by their late teens and were never cleaner than boys. With unkempt hair and lacking the nutrition critical to adolescent development, they did not look like girls, forced to become part of an androgynous and anonymous prison population.

Yong Kim, one survivor of the harshest of all the gulags, called "the complete control zone" of camp 14 in Kaechon of Southern Pyong-an province, witnessed a brutal murder by a security guard. Fortunately, for those still being detained to this day and the poor soul who was killed that day, he lived to tell of what he saw.

Graphic:

North Korean forced-labor camps
Fifty-three-year-old Chul-min Kim's job in "the complete control zone" was to drive trolleys for transporting coal. One day, he saw some chestnut burrs roll down the mountain slope and stop in front of his trolley. Chul-min, without realizing what he was doing, stopped on the tracks to pick up the chestnuts. A nearby security guard spotted Chul-min as he began to gather the nuts. On reaching Chul-min's bent-over back, the guard started kicking him and became increasingly violent, allowing his anger to mount. In no time, the hard soles of his boots were laying heavy blows to poor Chul-

min's head until finally, the guard drew a pistol from a pocket in his uniform. He then held down Chul-min's head with one foot and blew a hole in the forehead of the horrified victim.

Arbitrary murder is rampant in the camps. According to both Kang and Kim, thousands every year are brutally murdered or worked to death in each camp.

The testimonies on forced abortions and baby killings are numerous, and derive from acts witnessed in ordinary detention facilities as well as the gulags. According to "The Hidden Gulag," a report by the U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea, eight people testified to witnessing such acts.

Yong Hwa Choi assisted in the delivery of babies, three of whom, he reported, were promptly killed at the Sinuiju provincial detention center in mid-2000. Chun Sik You also reported that four pregnant women at the National Security Agency's police station in Sinuiju was the site of many forced abortions in mid-2000.

Graphic:

Kaechon prisoner housing

Kaechon, a mining camp of about 15,000 prisoners, is about 25 to 31 miles long by 19 miles wide. According to Kim Yong, one of the camp's survivors, daily meals consisted of 20 to 30 kernel of corn and watery cabbage soup. This image was provided by Space Imaging Asia, courtesy of the U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea.
The concentration camp is a kind of closed town where a number of camps are linked together by a road. At least two of the camps, Hoeryong and Hwasong in Hamkyong Province, are larger in area than the District of Columbia. All the gulags are located in remote and desolate mountain areas to further their anonymity and isolation to foreigners and dissidents. Presently, there are six gulags known to the outside world where it is speculated that some 150,000 to 200,000 inmates are imprisoned.

The most striking feature of the gulag system is the philosophy of "guilt by familial association" or "collective responsibility" whereby whole families within three generations are imprisoned. This policy has been practiced since 1972 when Kim Il Sung, the founder of communist North Korea, stated "Factionalists or enemies of class, whoever they are, their seed must be eliminated through three generations."

Another characteristic of this oppressive policy is that those arrested are not detained, charged or tried in any sort of judicial procedure. The victim, along with his immediate family, is shipped off in the early hours of the morning to an interrogation facility. He is only permitted to bring the clothes on his back. The presumed offender is then tortured in order to make him "confess" before being sent to the political penal-labor colony. On arrival at the camp, the victim is issued a pick and shovel, simple cooking utensils and a used army blanket. All contact with the outside world is blocked: he is now a non-person; no question will be asked about him by friends or relatives.

Shortly after arriving at the gulag, it becomes immediately apparent that the most salient feature of everyday life is the combination of below-subsistence-level food rations and extremely demanding labor quotas.

Prisoners are provided just enough food to be kept perpetually on the verge of starvation. They are compelled by their hunger to eat, if they can get away with it, the food of the labor-camp farm animals, as well as plants, grasses, bark, rats, snakes and anything remotely edible. In committing such desperate acts driven by acute hunger the prisoners simultaneously incur the extreme risk of being detected by an angry security guard and subjected to a brutal, on-the-spot execution.

Not surprisingly, the prisoners are quickly reduced to walking skeletons after their arrival. All gulag survivors said they were struck by the shortness, skinniness, premature aging, hunchbacks, and physical deformities of so many of the inmates they saw upon arriving at the gulag. These descriptions parallel those provided by survivors of the Holocaust in infamous camps like Auschwitz.

Chol Hwan Kang recollects in his memoir "Aquariums of Pyongyang: Ten Years in the North Korean Gulag":

"As prisoners eat rats in the camp, rats were almost depleted and became harder to find. The surviving rats are wary. Rat tastes strange and somehow unpleasant at first. The revolting taste, however, soon disappears. The children never lost opportunities to catch rats, as they watch so many other prisoners dying of undernourishment and pellagra. Rat is the only source of meat for prisoners for 10 or 20 years."

Another serious characteristic is that those detained are not actual political dissidents from the viewpoint of western society. Some people are arrested just because they used newspapers with a picture of the Dear Leader for toilet paper. Also among the dissidents are a large number of Japanese citizens of Korean ethnic descent who returned to North Korea in the 1950s and 1960s. When, in private meetings with their colleagues, they criticized North Korea for being no better than Japan, they were deemed to have been spoiled by their exposure to Japanese liberalism and capitalist property, and thus imprisoned.

In the 1990s, imprisonment befell some North Korean students and diplomats who had been studying or posted in the Soviet Union or Eastern Europe and had been exposed to the collapse of socialist rule. According to Yong Kim, he saw some old white men in his gulag who he believed were American POWs from the Korean war of early 1950s. Also believed to have been placed in the prison system were a large number of South Koreans, including many fishermen, captured or abducted by North Korea over the years.

At this moment, the growing number of witnesses and mounting evidence that the gulag system is a means of extreme oppression of the Korean people should dwarf the habitual criticism of the accusations issued by Kim's regime. North Korea's government says that all the gulag stories have been fabricated by "imperialists and their puppets."

But among the witnesses are at least eight gulag survivors including two former guards who are known to the public. Recently, one defector group named "Democracy Network Against North Korean Gulags" has published the list of 617 peoples' names in the gulags. Photographs taken by satellite show the precise locations of four active gulags. More graphic than any witness account though is one courageous man's videotape taken from the outskirts of the Yoduk camp that was broadcast in February 2004 by Japan's Fuji television network.

The sadistic regime led by Kim Jong Il has developed and maintained all kinds of extreme terror machines in order to cruelly suppress any dissident opposition. They range from gulags and the forced abortion of babies of prisoners to public firing squads and execution by burning, though the latter is rare. During the extreme famine of the late 1990s when about 3 million people starved to death in North Korea, public executions were staged nearly every month in every town in order to prevent spontaneous uprisings by the local population, according to Jang Yeop Hwang, the former secretary of North Korea's ruling North Korea Workers' Party. On many occasions, some of the victim's family members came out before the executions and declared: "Though you are my son, you are a traitor and a puppet of imperialists. You therefore deserve your death."

In March, 2005, a video of a public execution in the northern part of North Korea was successfully smuggled out and viewed all over the world. One can see a wooden pole is being set up for the execution before the judge even completes his verdict. The entire process is finished in just 20 minutes with no chance for the condemned to appeal to a higher court or even to defend himself. As part of the execution ritual, stones are placed in the condemned man's mouth to prevent him from shouting criticism of the regime. His legs and arms were already broken. His crime was attempting to help North Korean people flee to China.

The situation is extremely bad for refugees in China, too. Back in the mid-1990s when defectors began emerging, many were captured, sent to gulags, and shot. Some were even killed at the border while being repatriated. In a few cases, they were kept in metal fetters or had their noses ringed so they could be pulled around like animals while being repatriated. Even though the treatment of refugees has been softened a little by international pressure in recent years, refugees may incur severe punishment as they are repatriated.

While all these atrocities are committed against North Korean people, Kim is obsessed only with developing nuclear weapons and making foreign currency through illicit trade such as drugs and falsified currency to support his evil regime. Indeed, he, himself, is a human weapon of mass destruction who has starved nearly 3 million people to death and imprisoned 200,000 persons in harsh gulag conditions.

North Korea itself at this point is like one giant gulag where all the population short of Kim and his inner circle are subject to various kinds of atrocities and torture from their beginnings to their tragic ends.

Howard, a pro-democracy activist from South Korea, is currently a Reagan-Fascell fellow at the National Endowment for Democracy in Washington, D.C. From 1999 to 2001, he assisted North Korean refugees along the North Korea-China border.
 

I think not

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Apr 12, 2005
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The Evil Empire
Re: RE: Talk about N Korea

MikeyDB said:
Would you like me to review more American history for you ITN?

You mean socialist revisionist history? No fank you, I've read it all before.

MikeyDB said:
So are you suggesting that Americans didn't firebomb Tokyo etc.....

No, I'm not denying it, it's history. What's your point? Do you have a point other than viewing history with a contemporary view? Nah.
 

SaintLucifer

Electoral Member
Jul 10, 2006
324
0
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Re: RE: Talk about N Korea

Colpy said:
Thank you SL.

BTW, I forgot to mention Nanking, the city in China where the Japanese Imperial Army best expressed Imperial benevolence........by bayonetting all the patients in hospitals there, and by pronouncing every female non-Japanese 12 or older was a "Free prostitutute" for Imperial soldiers............300,000 plus CIVILIANS died in the city AFTER it had surrendered to the Japanese..............

BTW, there was little or no resistance in Nanking...........

That is ONE city......

I do believe I like this person. Have you ever thought about joining me in the fascist ranks? You do seem to know what you are talking about as most fascist like myself do.
 

The conductor

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Feb 12, 2006
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Just about every modern country in the last century have been guilty of some genocide or massacre of some kind.
I feel very bad for alot of the North Korean population being led by that madman. He will push them right to the edge and will force them into a fight with anybody.
Most of the people there are starving to death. They have no food.
The past is the past, but the future may not come as we hoped because of certain leaders (no names please) who are the biggest rable rousers the world has ever seen.
 

SaintLucifer

Electoral Member
Jul 10, 2006
324
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The conductor said:
Just about every modern country in the last century have been guilty of some genocide or massacre of some kind.
I feel very bad for alot of the North Korean population being led by that madman. He will push them right to the edge and will force them into a fight with anybody.
Most of the people there are starving to death. They have no food.
The past is the past, but the future may not come as we hoped because of certain leaders (no names please) who are the biggest rable rousers the world has ever seen.

Oh yes. I feel sympathy for those North Koreans. You do realise all it takes to end their predicament is for the soldiers to turn on their leader in a revolution? Obviously the soldiers do not give a shit about their own people. As such they are clearly excellent targets for our weaponry.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Sorry folks I inadvertently fell into a Twilight Zone episode where the emphasis is placed on soldiers to revolt against authority and the system behind genocide and brutality is downplayed...

You all keep on suckling at the American teat and when Canada suffers some retaliation for what is most likely to be an act of terrorisms committed by our "good" neighbor you can be satisfied that you've all been sooooo aware of why the world hates America and how it has earned that honor over decades of brutality terrorism torture kidnapping, eco-terrorism and all the attributes that America uses to demonize others. America is at least as guilty as the most radical fundamentalist when it comes to Manifest Destiny and now Pax Americana... Keep on sucking children....