SUICIDE BOMBERS
- Thread starter jimmoyer
- Start date
why the fascination with suicide bombers
because they represent the complete OPPOSITE of our bombers
those that can from the safety and comfort of their cockpits 1 mile up kill 100s and 1000s of the enemy
without even breaking a fingernail
afterwards they apoligise for the little babies they--- accidently killed
so not even their precious little self righteous consciences are bruised
strangely our bombers are the -- couragous ones---
you guys are a riot
because they represent the complete OPPOSITE of our bombers
those that can from the safety and comfort of their cockpits 1 mile up kill 100s and 1000s of the enemy
without even breaking a fingernail
afterwards they apoligise for the little babies they--- accidently killed
so not even their precious little self righteous consciences are bruised
strangely our bombers are the -- couragous ones---
you guys are a riot
Man, Cortez, you miss the difference, you equate
the mile high bomber with the suicide vest clown ?
Seeing the similarity is too easy.
Seeing something beyond that apparently is a tough
paradox for you.
Loner clowns with vests are infinitely more
dangerous, since their decisions are not vetted
through a process of discovery and thinking and debate.
I'm sure you'll wave your magical dismissive wand
at such a notion.
Gestate over it a little bit.
the mile high bomber with the suicide vest clown ?
Seeing the similarity is too easy.
Seeing something beyond that apparently is a tough
paradox for you.
Loner clowns with vests are infinitely more
dangerous, since their decisions are not vetted
through a process of discovery and thinking and debate.
I'm sure you'll wave your magical dismissive wand
at such a notion.
Gestate over it a little bit.
Re: RE: SUICIDE BOMBERS
it is you who use magical words
through a process of discovery-----in fact lies example the missing WMDs
thinking--- like the post conquest phase of iraq-- again current example was though out
debate---- yeah right!!!
empty debate
suicide bombing attacks are as rational or irrational as any other type of war action-crime
in terms of total impact though-- you have to admit the mile hi bombers are several orders of magnitude more depraved -- in their consequences
the suicide -terrorists- arent just bombers
some of them dont were vests
some of them can actually fly planes
like the mile hi guys
most are not loners-- but work in teams
its all very ugly --- i quite agree
but to the victims or our righteous warriors--- eàwe must seem even more depraved and ugly
ah yes-- they are anti-american
jimmoyer said:
it is you who use magical words
through a process of discovery-----in fact lies example the missing WMDs
thinking--- like the post conquest phase of iraq-- again current example was though out
debate---- yeah right!!!
empty debate
suicide bombing attacks are as rational or irrational as any other type of war action-crime
in terms of total impact though-- you have to admit the mile hi bombers are several orders of magnitude more depraved -- in their consequences
the suicide -terrorists- arent just bombers
some of them dont were vests
some of them can actually fly planes
like the mile hi guys
most are not loners-- but work in teams
its all very ugly --- i quite agree
but to the victims or our righteous warriors--- eàwe must seem even more depraved and ugly
ah yes-- they are anti-american
Actually cortez, you miss a subtle idea.
I totally understand your response.
Hobbes, in Leviathan, spoke of security as fundamental
to put at bay an anarchy of the individual, an anarchy
of the individual that promises us no security and
thereby no freedom nor liberty to be safe enough
to realize our own personal potentials and dreams.
The nefarious skullduggery of politicans within any
screwed up structure is infinitely less dangerous than
the anarchy of one individual, of one atom split.
I totally understand your response.
Hobbes, in Leviathan, spoke of security as fundamental
to put at bay an anarchy of the individual, an anarchy
of the individual that promises us no security and
thereby no freedom nor liberty to be safe enough
to realize our own personal potentials and dreams.
The nefarious skullduggery of politicans within any
screwed up structure is infinitely less dangerous than
the anarchy of one individual, of one atom split.
So, cortez, each is in a different neatly defined
category in your head ?
The suicide bomber is the worker who goes postal.
Like the guy who did the Oklahoma Federal building.
Anarchy of the individual, a lone stranger, without
the structure of discussion, challenge, debate.
Not part of a group that has variety.
Alone.
In his head.
Hobbes spoke of the State, detailing its monstrosities
but quite also accurately more fearful of the anarchy
of the individual.
category in your head ?
The suicide bomber is the worker who goes postal.
Like the guy who did the Oklahoma Federal building.
Anarchy of the individual, a lone stranger, without
the structure of discussion, challenge, debate.
Not part of a group that has variety.
Alone.
In his head.
Hobbes spoke of the State, detailing its monstrosities
but quite also accurately more fearful of the anarchy
of the individual.
alone in his head-- what are you talking about
the suicide bombing is a tactic
a means to an end
the ends include specific objectives
that have been thought out and debated and planned by the organisations that sponsor the attack
in response to what they PERCEIVE are threats and injustices done to them--
thats not a justification for it--- but i seriously doubt that these people are alone in their heads-- they are very much in-the-world as their very bodies become one with the historical forces that are raging
hobbes was discussing the internal dynamic of a state- specifically how we all must as members of a larger body give up some autonomy-- specifically violence-- yeah who can argue agianst that
what we have here is a conflict between -- nations--or ethnic groups-- its more like warfare-- more like those mile hi bombers -- that TOO has to stop-- the violence between nations--in its vested form as well as its mile hi form-- if we are to build a world community based on niceness
the suicide bombing is a tactic
a means to an end
the ends include specific objectives
that have been thought out and debated and planned by the organisations that sponsor the attack
in response to what they PERCEIVE are threats and injustices done to them--
thats not a justification for it--- but i seriously doubt that these people are alone in their heads-- they are very much in-the-world as their very bodies become one with the historical forces that are raging
hobbes was discussing the internal dynamic of a state- specifically how we all must as members of a larger body give up some autonomy-- specifically violence-- yeah who can argue agianst that
what we have here is a conflict between -- nations--or ethnic groups-- its more like warfare-- more like those mile hi bombers -- that TOO has to stop-- the violence between nations--in its vested form as well as its mile hi form-- if we are to build a world community based on niceness
alone in his head-- what are you talking about
the suicide bombing is a tactic
a means to an end
the ends include specific objectives
that have been thought out and debated and planned by the organisations that sponsor the attack
in response to what they PERCEIVE are threats and injustices done to them--
thats not a justification for it--- but i seriously doubt that these people are alone in their heads-- they are very much in-the-world as their very bodies become one with the historical forces that are raging
----------------------cortez--------------------------------
Hook line and sinker.
15 million voted in Iraq.
You wonder about the demographics why they
didn't all put on a suicide vest.
After all, they all have the rationale to which you
subscribe.
You wonder why no one over 40 years old does it.
Even soldiers who sign up for an army won't do it.
the suicide bombing is a tactic
a means to an end
the ends include specific objectives
that have been thought out and debated and planned by the organisations that sponsor the attack
in response to what they PERCEIVE are threats and injustices done to them--
thats not a justification for it--- but i seriously doubt that these people are alone in their heads-- they are very much in-the-world as their very bodies become one with the historical forces that are raging
----------------------cortez--------------------------------
Hook line and sinker.
15 million voted in Iraq.
You wonder about the demographics why they
didn't all put on a suicide vest.
After all, they all have the rationale to which you
subscribe.
You wonder why no one over 40 years old does it.
Even soldiers who sign up for an army won't do it.
Re: RE: SUICIDE BOMBERS
the concept escapes you
reread the previous posts and meditate on them
the point has been made
why didnt the US honor the results of the vote of the UN security council-- ie the case for war was not successfully made----
the US did the equivalent of putting on a vest-- in the sense that it acted as the rogue state it is generally considered to be.
except of course they did it from the comfort of their cockpit-- see post above mocking the US airforce
you think these are different acts because
1- the suicide bomber is willing to kill-- as well as die for his beliefs
2- the mile hi bomber is willing to kill-- but not to die
what the mile hi bomber accepts is the CHANCE he might die-- the risk -- not the certainty
jimmoyer said:
the concept escapes you
reread the previous posts and meditate on them
the point has been made
why didnt the US honor the results of the vote of the UN security council-- ie the case for war was not successfully made----
the US did the equivalent of putting on a vest-- in the sense that it acted as the rogue state it is generally considered to be.
except of course they did it from the comfort of their cockpit-- see post above mocking the US airforce
you think these are different acts because
1- the suicide bomber is willing to kill-- as well as die for his beliefs
2- the mile hi bomber is willing to kill-- but not to die
what the mile hi bomber accepts is the CHANCE he might die-- the risk -- not the certainty
you think these are different acts because
1- the suicide bomber is willing to kill-- as well as die for his beliefs
2- the mile hi bomber is willing to kill-- but not to die
what the mile hi bomber accepts is the CHANCE he might die-- the risk -- not the certainty
------------------------cortez--------------------------
Well, cortez, you finally came to the comparison
explicitly.
The risk vs certainty is a world of difference.
On the shallow level they appear to be both equal,
but on a psychological level the difference between
risk and assured certainty is a world apart.
And why should this difference matter ?
You tend to downplay the absolute chasm of difference
between certainty and risk.
But why should it matter ?
The reasons are :
1. Anarchy of the individual, where nothing remains
safe, not even his fellow citizens.
2. Open debate and discussion and challenge does
not inform his decision within a group structure,
but is done in some dark room by a predator filling
in thoughts onto this young tabula rasa with no
experience.
3. Even the inner circle of the State, of the Government
gets challenged, debated, accused, condemned, and
even has a process available to stop it despite whether
the process stops the inner circle of The State.
4. No such process is available on the lone suicide vest.
5. It's a mindthink more nefarious and dangerous
when one man can bring down a whole town, insulated
from discovery and challenge.
6. Even world leaders do not escape such challenge.
Finally the tolerance for understanding these suicide
bombers by the outside westerners does no justice
to anybody, not yourself, not for your society, and
certainly not for their society.
It is a tolerance to understand the other side that
is just shallow, not deep, not subtle and ultimately
bad for the other side they allegedly understand.
Had we been unified as a world to rebuild Iraq, they
might be functioning already.
But that priority is
far behind the priority of condemning American hypocrisy.
Whether Iraq makes it or not ---- is of very little passion
or interest by the Western Liberal world that supposedly
understands Iraq more than anyone else does.
That's the hypocrisy of it too.
And that hypocrisy of the liberal west stands side by side
American hypocrisy, both being so true, both truths unseen
by each side.
1- the suicide bomber is willing to kill-- as well as die for his beliefs
2- the mile hi bomber is willing to kill-- but not to die
what the mile hi bomber accepts is the CHANCE he might die-- the risk -- not the certainty
------------------------cortez--------------------------
Well, cortez, you finally came to the comparison
explicitly.
The risk vs certainty is a world of difference.
On the shallow level they appear to be both equal,
but on a psychological level the difference between
risk and assured certainty is a world apart.
And why should this difference matter ?
You tend to downplay the absolute chasm of difference
between certainty and risk.
But why should it matter ?
The reasons are :
1. Anarchy of the individual, where nothing remains
safe, not even his fellow citizens.
2. Open debate and discussion and challenge does
not inform his decision within a group structure,
but is done in some dark room by a predator filling
in thoughts onto this young tabula rasa with no
experience.
3. Even the inner circle of the State, of the Government
gets challenged, debated, accused, condemned, and
even has a process available to stop it despite whether
the process stops the inner circle of The State.
4. No such process is available on the lone suicide vest.
5. It's a mindthink more nefarious and dangerous
when one man can bring down a whole town, insulated
from discovery and challenge.
6. Even world leaders do not escape such challenge.
Finally the tolerance for understanding these suicide
bombers by the outside westerners does no justice
to anybody, not yourself, not for your society, and
certainly not for their society.
It is a tolerance to understand the other side that
is just shallow, not deep, not subtle and ultimately
bad for the other side they allegedly understand.
Had we been unified as a world to rebuild Iraq, they
might be functioning already.
But that priority is
far behind the priority of condemning American hypocrisy.
Whether Iraq makes it or not ---- is of very little passion
or interest by the Western Liberal world that supposedly
understands Iraq more than anyone else does.
That's the hypocrisy of it too.
And that hypocrisy of the liberal west stands side by side
American hypocrisy, both being so true, both truths unseen
by each side.
Hypocrisy is rampant in the world the elimination of American hypocrisy will act as a shinning light of reason to the rest of the world, we will remember your sacrifice with love.
Re: RE: SUICIDE BOMBERS
i think you have been arguing with yourself--
the way forward is as youve suggested dialogue truth finding etc---
that process is NOT the process of the mile high bomber an the military industrial machine he represents
are you suggesting that state terrorism is somehow on a higher level than smaller scale terrorism
that the mile hi bomber and terrorist commanders in washington and london he works for are on the same low depraved level as the vested variant--- is self evident----
jimmoyer said:
i think you have been arguing with yourself--
the way forward is as youve suggested dialogue truth finding etc---
that process is NOT the process of the mile high bomber an the military industrial machine he represents
are you suggesting that state terrorism is somehow on a higher level than smaller scale terrorism
that the mile hi bomber and terrorist commanders in washington and london he works for are on the same low depraved level as the vested variant--- is self evident----
Like the cleric al Sistani of great standing among first
the Shia and then of respect from the Sunni,
tells the members of the faith, especially the clerics to separate themselves from politics.
Likewise, the machinery of war even under the State
is a similar separation.
There's a subtle evil here, more cancerous with
the individual running errant.
The chaos and anarchy of the individual is so
much more devastating than the terrorism of the State.
The random nature of the individual defies even Statist evil.
The reverberations are more profound.
And so is death.
One suicide bomber accomplishes by its ripple effect
more than a terrorist President.
In the fabric.
This isn't your father's Oldsmobile.
the Shia and then of respect from the Sunni,
tells the members of the faith, especially the clerics to separate themselves from politics.
Likewise, the machinery of war even under the State
is a similar separation.
There's a subtle evil here, more cancerous with
the individual running errant.
The chaos and anarchy of the individual is so
much more devastating than the terrorism of the State.
The random nature of the individual defies even Statist evil.
The reverberations are more profound.
And so is death.
One suicide bomber accomplishes by its ripple effect
more than a terrorist President.
In the fabric.
This isn't your father's Oldsmobile.
its a poetic point your making..
ill just have to disagree--
as this type of belief-- on both your and my part-- are sort of axioms that cant be proved---
nonetheless the idea that the individual is so naturally prone to such evil that can even surpass stalins outrages --- is bizarre
perhaps you are even more bizarre than cortez rantings
...and THAT is very scary
ill just have to disagree--
as this type of belief-- on both your and my part-- are sort of axioms that cant be proved---
nonetheless the idea that the individual is so naturally prone to such evil that can even surpass stalins outrages --- is bizarre
perhaps you are even more bizarre than cortez rantings
...and THAT is very scary
perspective
im familiar with hobbes argument
post katrina was complex--as people who are totally dependant on a state to survive are suddenly left to their own devices--ie the helpless ones
the looters--- yep so what
perspective--- not exactly as bad a stalin--
which is why your point is poetic
you failed to mention lord of the flies
im familiar with hobbes argument
post katrina was complex--as people who are totally dependant on a state to survive are suddenly left to their own devices--ie the helpless ones
the looters--- yep so what
perspective--- not exactly as bad a stalin--
which is why your point is poetic
you failed to mention lord of the flies