I am not against you, I am against the one who talked about Xinjiang like he knew a lot.Add my MSN
, you've got so many questions...Stop distorting Tibet unless you want to do CCP a favor
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I am not against you, I am against the one who talked about Xinjiang like he knew a lot.Add my MSN
, you've got so many questions...
I didn't think you are against me, Hegel. But the truth is anyway that I'm not educated about China.
Add my MSN
Hegel, did you not get my email? I checked my email a short while ago, thinking you might have answered back, but there was nothing from you.
Xinjiang has been conquered by China several times (and then thrown off the yoke), it has never been part of China. A similar issue occured with Mongolia, and Inner Mongolia is still under Chinese control.
China has a habit of claiming anywhere it has ever conquered it part of China, but anywhere in China conquered from China (Maccau, Hong Kong) Is still part of China too.
The East Turkistan Republic was conquered by the PLA, and the only reason Mongolia is independant was because Russian forces backed their independance.
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Hi, Zzarkov;
good for you to know all that! I don't really care about the time hundreds or thousands of years ago, I'm more concerned to understand the present situations with their conflicts and why. Was it Mao Zedong who turned China into a communist state in or around 1950? That name I remember, he was feared the world over. Ever since him China has been ruled with an iron fist by the communist regime. So many Chinese people have tried to escape from that brutal regime. Canada has a large Chinese population in Vancouver and Toronto (Chinatown). Even my little town has two Chinese restaurants.
If people want to get away from their own country, then it must be pretty awful there!
good for you to know all that! I don't really care about the time hundreds or thousands of years ago, I'm more concerned to understand the present situations with their conflicts and why. Was it Mao Zedong who turned China into a communist state in or around 1950? That name I remember, he was feared the world over. Ever since him China has been ruled with an iron fist by the communist regime. So many Chinese people have tried to escape from that brutal regime. Canada has a large Chinese population in Vancouver and Toronto (Chinatown). Even my little town has two Chinese restaurants.
If people want to get away from their own country, then it must be pretty awful there!
1949 was the year.....yes, it was Mao Zedong who led the Communist Party to victory in that year. In my post above, I used the old way to spell his name in English....Mao Tse-Tung, but they are the same man.
I am amazed at the support for China from people of Chinese ethnicity here.....like, if China is so damn wonderful, why are you here?
Pisses me off, actually. I become increasingly right-wing over immigration.........and I wish that were not so......but I doubt the immigrant's possess the (IMHO) prerequisite respect for democracy and the most basic of human rights, be they Chinese, or Islamic, etc.
I fear for our nation of immigrants.
Colpy
I agree. We don't have any reliable means of assuring ourselves that immigrants embrace the tolerance and compassion that would make our situation less volatile. Indeed we have hurdles of our own to leap, but are we expecting too much from these folk? Is it reasonable to expect that a person who's suffered at the hands of an oppressive regime won't have an excess of animosity (Thodore Issac Rubin (The Angry Book) suggests that we preserve and store our anger and if the analogy is accurate or reasonable, aren't we expecting a Moslem or a Chinese person who's been mistreated for perhaps their whole life to integrate flawlessly into our "society"?
Because you want to leave the location where you came to harm isn't in my book sufficient reason for an open-door-policy, but are there ways we can intercede to provide the opportunity without placing our religious and social structures in jeopardy?
I agree. We don't have any reliable means of assuring ourselves that immigrants embrace the tolerance and compassion that would make our situation less volatile. Indeed we have hurdles of our own to leap, but are we expecting too much from these folk? Is it reasonable to expect that a person who's suffered at the hands of an oppressive regime won't have an excess of animosity (Thodore Issac Rubin (The Angry Book) suggests that we preserve and store our anger and if the analogy is accurate or reasonable, aren't we expecting a Moslem or a Chinese person who's been mistreated for perhaps their whole life to integrate flawlessly into our "society"?
Because you want to leave the location where you came to harm isn't in my book sufficient reason for an open-door-policy, but are there ways we can intercede to provide the opportunity without placing our religious and social structures in jeopardy?
The best way to defeat a nation is by demographics. All other conquests are short-lived.
If a wave of immigration is so large and huge that it becomes dominant, then that nation is now something completely different.
China is doing that to autonomous Tibet and to the Uighers in Sinkiang autonomous region.
All Western democracies are grappling with the WAVE.
Interesting eh ?
Why we find it difficult to regulate immigration? This is a mechanics issue.
We need the proper mix of new and old to be both vital and moral.
We need both young and old, and immigrants and native or faux-native.
If a wave of immigration is so large and huge that it becomes dominant, then that nation is now something completely different.
China is doing that to autonomous Tibet and to the Uighers in Sinkiang autonomous region.
All Western democracies are grappling with the WAVE.
Interesting eh ?
Why we find it difficult to regulate immigration? This is a mechanics issue.
We need the proper mix of new and old to be both vital and moral.
We need both young and old, and immigrants and native or faux-native.
Jimmoyer
Oh my gawd! Next thing you'll be suggesting is that diversity is a good thing! ...
How reasonable is it to believe that humanity won't spread to cover the planet as resources and conditions change? It's more than mechanics Jim but I'd agree with the basic premise.
Oh my gawd! Next thing you'll be suggesting is that diversity is a good thing! ...
How reasonable is it to believe that humanity won't spread to cover the planet as resources and conditions change? It's more than mechanics Jim but I'd agree with the basic premise.
Most of that isn't ancient history.
It was Mao Zedong (leading the communists against the KMT) who drove the Chinese Nationalist forces to Taiwan, then invaded and colonized Tibet and the East Turkmenistan Republic.
Mongolia declared independance from China in 1911 (after a gradual series of conquests over the last 2-300ish years) and outer Mongolia only received Chinese recognition during WWII (Fighting the Japanese and the Communists under Mao at once, the KMT didn't have the manpower to try and reconquer Mongolia, and were worried Inner Mongolia would seperate too).
Between In the 40's and 50's China expanded drastically, retaking Guanxi (spelling is way off) in the south, peacefully, taking Taiwan and Manchuria (the Northern Bit) from Japan and its puppet state of Manchuko, then in not so nice ways, waging war and annexing the "Xinjiang" and Tibet.
It eventually ceased tried to expand in the next 20 years when it had a brief battle with India and Vietnam (Vietnam beat the tar out of China, being combat veterans from the war with the USA).
Then it focused on using diplomatic pressure to get Hong Kong and Maccau back.
If it doesn't change it ways, I can imagine Korea, Mongolia, Nepal (currently being taken over by Maoists), Bhutan and parts of Aghanistan being annexed by China in the next 50 years.
Hi, Colpy;
I think I can understand it a little bit.... they are emotionally still connected to their family roots, which remain in China.
That is a harsh judgment, Colpy! If you were born here, and your parents perhaps, too, then it is difficult for you to feel as an immigrant feels. The immigrants have to pull all their roots, all their conditioning from their original country and accept the new location as well as the society they want to integrate into. That is a huge transformation on all levels of their being. If you, the old, deeply settled Canadian, feels resentment, impatience and even hostility towards them, you actually stunt them in their transformation to become a harmonious member of Canadian society. They feel you don't want to share, you reject them, you hate them. Picture yourself in China or Germany encountering that kind of "welcome" from your new neighbors around you!!
When I came over here in 1958, I felt strange at first, everything, including the language, was different, but I never felt unwelcome, rejected, harassed or hated. People were friendly and accommodating. They put up with my broken English and smiled. They were understanding and forgiving and offered help.
Do we, after 50 years, still have that wonderful attitude towards immigrants? No, I don't think so. I hear too often complaints and jealous remarks. Of course it is harder for visible immigrants to integrate themselves, because they don't just look different, they also had different cultural upbringings.
We do need much understanding, and we must extend our hand and open our hearts to them. We will reap their gratitude and their eagerness to become good citizens.(Like me! I'm such a good citizen ;-) - I toot nothing but praise for Canada!!) I feel truly thankful towards this wonderful country for having taken me onto its bosom! (hand me a Kleenex...)
Colpy, be kind and let live. You, too must have come from somewhere else down your ancestral line, unless you are a Native.
I don't worry too much about Immigration, as long as it gets spread out. For 2 reasons.
1.) It stops "Ghettos" from forming and allows better Integration
2.) It provides new labour to where new labour is needed, rather than giving an oversupply of labour to three cities and driving down the wages the new immigrants need to live off of. Lets face it, Immigration isn't a charity, we have immigration because we need workers.
My Grandparents were Immigrants, still not fully Canadian as most would say it. But As their Grandkid Im about as Canuck as they get. And I have no reason to believe thats different than anyone else, I know second and third generation Arab immigrants who are as Canadian as anyone else, they love hockey (and beer) and all the western ideals we do.
So a
1.) It stops "Ghettos" from forming and allows better Integration
2.) It provides new labour to where new labour is needed, rather than giving an oversupply of labour to three cities and driving down the wages the new immigrants need to live off of. Lets face it, Immigration isn't a charity, we have immigration because we need workers.
My Grandparents were Immigrants, still not fully Canadian as most would say it. But As their Grandkid Im about as Canuck as they get. And I have no reason to believe thats different than anyone else, I know second and third generation Arab immigrants who are as Canadian as anyone else, they love hockey (and beer) and all the western ideals we do.
So a
So, it was Mao who took over Tibet!! Then Tibet is probably also communistic now.
When Mao took over Tibet, was that when Dalai Lama fled? He must have been quite young then, being still alive and young-appearing now.
Meaning that Mongolia belonged to China at one time? How come that during the Second WW I heard that Stalin sent the Mongolian/Asiatic "hordes" against the German Army on the East Front? Did and still does Mongolia belong to Russia?
I got myself a map of Mongolia. http://geography.about.com/library/cia/blcmongolia.htm
I do not know what you mean by "outer Mongolia"?
I just read that Mongolia is an independent state and does not belong to Russia, but has a strong communist party in its democratic mix of government.
I need visual aid to connect all this information to a location on the globe. Here is another map, showing Japan and Manchuria: http://www.fsmitha.com/h3/map24-ma.html
and this map shows Taiwan in relation to its surroundings: http://www.taiwan-map.com/
I didn't even know Taiwan is an island!!!8O;-)
Tibet: http://www.lonelyplanet.com/maps/asia/china/tibet/
There is a WORLD out there I have no idea about!!! I need to get strong again and agile, so I can travel to those places, and see what life is like in those "remote" parts!!
The returning of Hong Kong I remember, that was not so long ago. Wasn't it Prinz Charles who did the official hand-over?
I can understand China, its the materialistic way of communism to grab what they can. England did, America does, little Israel does, Russia did and still does with Chechnya. Its the way of the world. I feel it is a waste of time and energy, but probably necessary as learning experiences.
Yes, its a possibility while they are on a roll and getting bigger and stronger. Who would interfere, you think? Russia?
Thank you, Zzarkov, and Colpy as well, for your friendly help teaching me some basic history about the other side of the world. Now I'm not quite as ignorant anymore as I was a day or two ago!;-):smile:
I agree absolutely with that!. There was no such thing as charity or social assistance when I came over. Swim or sink was the motto then! We took any job we could get, and we saved as much as we could. 3 1/2 years later we had scratched together the down-payment for a house!!! The ultimate joy of a poor immigrant couple!!
I think that's what it takes, to get to the next generation, because they will have it much easier to integrate, IF the parents allow them to fully mix with the kids in Public School, get them into sports etc. I see how totally immersed and accepted my grandchildren are.
But believe me, Xinjiang had been a part of China in Han Dynasty, that was 2, 000 years ago(The official Chinese government of Xinjiang was established in 60 BC). Don't ever neglect the knowledge of Chinese history of an educated Chinese, we all know our 5, 000-year history way much better than you.
Oh, about the name, I am a Hegel's fan but I am not an expertise, the main reason of choosing it as a nick name is because it is cool and its spelling is simple...lol
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So you're saying the Uighers claim and request for a nation is without a basis ?
By the way, the Hegel name is most excellent.
Hegel's concept of Dialectical Materialism and the process of History of Thesis being attacked by a rebel antithesis to form a Synthesis which becomes the new Thesis, the new Zietgeist standard has more potential for analysis than first glance.
This idea is especially instructive to those who think they can form the best of all possible systems or that of a utopia (latin for no-where, right?).
Oh, about the name, I am a Hegel's fan but I am not an expertise, the main reason of choosing it as a nick name is because it is cool and its spelling is simple...lol
------------------------------------hegel325--------------------------------------------------------------------
So you're saying the Uighers claim and request for a nation is without a basis ?
By the way, the Hegel name is most excellent.
Hegel's concept of Dialectical Materialism and the process of History of Thesis being attacked by a rebel antithesis to form a Synthesis which becomes the new Thesis, the new Zietgeist standard has more potential for analysis than first glance.
This idea is especially instructive to those who think they can form the best of all possible systems or that of a utopia (latin for no-where, right?).
To Dancing Loon:
Outer Mongolia is what the nation of Mongolia is called now. In a series of wars from the 17th to 19th century, China conquered all of Mongolia piecemeal. This was reversing the trend from a few hundred years before that, when Mongolia conquered all of China..as well as all of Russia, Eastern Europe ..going all the way to the borders of Germany and Central Europe.
In 1911 Mongolia declared its independance from China, and with Russian Help (that why in WWII the Mongols and Stalin were allies) kept most of it out of Chinese Hands.
The parts of Mongolia still in Chinese hands are called "Inner Mongolia". This is similar to how parts of Germany have been under foreign rule in its past.
I hope this helps.
Outer Mongolia is what the nation of Mongolia is called now. In a series of wars from the 17th to 19th century, China conquered all of Mongolia piecemeal. This was reversing the trend from a few hundred years before that, when Mongolia conquered all of China..as well as all of Russia, Eastern Europe ..going all the way to the borders of Germany and Central Europe.
In 1911 Mongolia declared its independance from China, and with Russian Help (that why in WWII the Mongols and Stalin were allies) kept most of it out of Chinese Hands.
The parts of Mongolia still in Chinese hands are called "Inner Mongolia". This is similar to how parts of Germany have been under foreign rule in its past.
I hope this helps.
Oh, here comes Mongolia...
I am not sure whether the means of "conquered" is able to describe the status of Mongolia few hundreds years ago. I am not a native English speaker and I am also not willing to translate all those complex phrases and conceptions that could define the relationship between Beijing and Mongolia. In a short word, the queens of Qing Dynasty (the period between 1644-1911), were always selected from the elite family of various Mongolian tribes. And if you know Feudalism, you would know that the queen's family are the rulers as well as the emperor (although emperor is the head). What is more, the ethnic that ruled the Qing Dynasty is not Ethinic Han, it is Ethinic Man, which is the distant relatives of the Ethinic Meng resides in Mongolia. So "conquered"? Not sure...
Hi, Hegel;
that sounds almost romantic! I will check with our library, I would like to read about that time, and their customs and how they dressed and courted and rode their little steppe horses..
In a broad assertion, their claim is not justified.
Admittedly, there were times that they were being "conquered" or "ruled" in history, and that would be something that remains to be controversial. But their situation is not that miserable as they stated. The geographical location makes their neighborhood impossible to develop into an independent nation with a strong and advantaged economy, but for them, the hardest time has already passed with Beijing's helping hand. Beijing offered them free education, generous tax-cut, limited autonomy, and millions of financial assistants. Now their life is better, and BANG, they want independence. Why the hell didn't they request independence when their life was hundred times miserable than today? Because independence is just an excuse: Imaging, one landowner built a house for the aboriginal poors who had no place to live, and one day the aboriginals claim that their life in the house is miserable and because of the fact that they used to live there for a long time, the land is theirs, and so is the house. Will you believe those craps?
Besides, there is a notion of "the mergence of ethnic groups" in Chinese history, as Ethnic Hui, which is a brand new ethnic appeared 500 years ago, is consisted by the mergence of Persian, Arabs, and other Chinese ethnics including Uigher who used to live in northwestern China. China has 56 ethnic groups, and except very few ones in the southwestern China, most of them are not isolated. One of my previous roomate, who belongs to Ethnic Han also comes from Xinjiang, and his family has lived there for hundreds of years. If there become one Uigher nation, what about other ethnics that also had alrealdy lived there even before Columbus discovered America? It is totally ridiculous.
Good Morning!
Look at this:
Nepal warning to torch protesters
Nepal says it is prepared to use force - including gunfire - to prevent anti-Beijing protests during the Olympic torch relay up Mount Everest.
The torch is scheduled to be brought up the peak from the northern, Chinese Tibetan side in early May.
Nepal is determined to prevent protests which may damage relations with China, says the BBC's Charles Haviland in Kathmandu.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7357036.stm
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I am amazed they'll run the torch up Mt. Everest!!! Is there enough oxygen to keep the flame burning??
All these protests are ridiculous in my humble opinion!! The Olympic games should be enjoyed on their own without mixing political grievances in with it.
Look at this:
Nepal warning to torch protesters
Nepal says it is prepared to use force - including gunfire - to prevent anti-Beijing protests during the Olympic torch relay up Mount Everest.
The torch is scheduled to be brought up the peak from the northern, Chinese Tibetan side in early May.
Nepal is determined to prevent protests which may damage relations with China, says the BBC's Charles Haviland in Kathmandu.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7357036.stm
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I am amazed they'll run the torch up Mt. Everest!!! Is there enough oxygen to keep the flame burning??
All these protests are ridiculous in my humble opinion!! The Olympic games should be enjoyed on their own without mixing political grievances in with it.