Stop distorting Tibet unless you want to do CCP a favor

hegel325

New Member
Apr 15, 2008
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lol
I don't agree with baeirr that Tibet is ALWALYS a part of China, but I don't agree with Zzarchov neither that it is a colony. It is beyond the jurisdiction of contemporary international law.

And Zzarchov, don't worry about the Great China, I think it will not happen. The worst thing that could possibly happen might be what is now the Great America, maybe Canada included, but there's still many things that this supercountry couldn't do.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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The Dalai Lama doesn't seek independance for Tibet. He wants to preserve Tibet's culture and language through limited autonomy.

WASHINGTON: The Dalai Lama has denied the Chinese claim that he supports separation of Tibet, saying he only wanted autonomy to preserve its unique culture and traditions which under Beijing's rule remains only "on paper".

"The whole world knows we are not seeking separation," the Dalai Lama said, stressing that what is being sought is only genuine and complete autonomy for Tibet as provided for in the Chinese constitution but has remained "on paper" only.

"We really need an arrangement of full protection of Tibetan language and culture," the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader told a gathering at Colgate University in Hamilton, New York.

He also said that everything in his homeland is now being controlled by the Han Chinese, the majority nationality in the Communist nation....

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...separation_Dalai_Lama/articleshow/2974709.cms
 

baeirr

New Member
Apr 21, 2008
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Beijing
The Dalai Lama doesn't seek independance for Tibet. He wants to preserve Tibet's culture and language through limited autonomy.

Do you know in China, there is one place called “Xizang(Tibet) Autonomous Region”? Autonomy has already being implemented in Tibet. If you come to Tibet and talk to any Tibetans by the roadside, he will tell you their culture and language have been preserved and protected. Han Chinese never controlled them or told them to give up their culture and language. They have freedom to choose their life.

Take an example, we Chinese learn English and other foreign languages for better communication with people all over the world. Now Tibetan people want to learn Chinese mandarin, English, etc. for better communication, we cannot prevent their desire to know the outside world.

So what does Dalai Lama really mean by “full protection”? When you trust Dalai Lama and find you cannot come to Tibet or talk to Tibetans freely in the future because it is totally closed to the world, just as it was in nineteenth century, you will understand everything today.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Ok, you want a more detailed version of Tibetan History, it looks worse and worse for Chinese control there. The best evidence of Chinese control of Tibet is that Britain and China agreed China had Suzerainity over it.

Aka, A colonial agreement. No different than Britain's suzeranity over the Raj India.

Its a Colony. Sure the royal lines had mixes, Chinese and Tibetan Queens galore. Europe had the same thing, that Doesn't mean Germany and Britain are the same country because their royal lines are intertwined like a pretzel.

China has had a pretty expansionist policy and has always been working on the next chunk of land to take.
 

baeirr

New Member
Apr 21, 2008
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Excuse me, May I know your age?

Ok, you want a more detailed version of Tibetan History, it looks worse and worse for Chinese control there. The best evidence of Chinese control of Tibet is that Britain and China agreed China had Suzerainity over it.

Aka, A colonial agreement. No different than Britain's suzeranity over the Raj India.

Its a Colony. Sure the royal lines had mixes, Chinese and Tibetan Queens galore. Europe had the same thing, that Doesn't mean Germany and Britain are the same country because their royal lines are intertwined like a pretzel.

China has had a pretty expansionist policy and has always been working on the next chunk of land to take.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
2,739
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China should invite the Dalai Lama to the Olympics. That would end the protests.
Hi, Earth-as-one, look here- it is getting very close to happening:
Chinese government officials will meet with representatives of the Dalai Lama in the wake of weeks of tension with Tibet, according to reports from Xinhua, the Chinese state-run media


U.S. President George Bush and European Union leaders have been among those calling on China to begin a dialogue with the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader.
In mid-March, anti-government riots shook Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, kicking off a series of protests that have marred much of the Beijing Olympic torch's journey around the world.
"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."

"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."
Full article here: http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Top...e_Dalai_080425
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Sofar it's just heresy with political footwork. It remains to be seen if China will actually show a real will to listen to Tibet and consider Tibetans' wish for independence.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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The Los Angeles Times has an interesting article on the subject.

China's view of Tibet

Western leaders' grandstanding ignores both history and the situation on the ground.

News reports of protests targeting the Beijing Olympics torch relay -- first in France, then the U.S. and now Australia -- are surely happily consumed by Westerners who assume supporting a free Tibet is a just cause. What could be more moral than helping a weak people gain independence from an oppressive Chinese government?

The West paints the tale of Tibet in black and white: The politicians and activists in Europe and America are only trying to protect the human rights of the innocent Tibetans, who were invaded not so long ago by the communist Chinese. So when, for instance, European leaders -- so far, British Prime Minister Gordon Brown, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Czech Prime Minister Mirek Topolanek -- decide to skip the Olympics' opening ceremonies, they appear to be simply responding to a deep moral urge. Solidarity with the oppressed has been a hallmark of the West, although no Western country actually challenges China's sovereignty over Tibet.

Try stepping into the Chinese minds to understand how different the same events look. Chinese history records dominion over Tibet as far back as the 13th century. China's control has ebbed and flowed -- but this is equally true in many other parts of China. Central control by the capital has never been consistent, shifting with the strength of the central government. But this much is certain: China has been in control of most of its territories longer than some Western nations have existed.

More important, the Chinese recall that the latest efforts to separate Tibet from China came as recently as the 1940s and 1950s, when British and U.S. agents were seen to be encouraging Tibetan independence while the new People's Republic was still weak. The Chinese also have powerful memories of Britain's central role in the notorious opium trade of the 18th and 19th centuries, when European trading companies sold the drug to smugglers, then used the ill-gotten gold to buy silk, tea and porcelain.

The related Opium Wars, during which Hong Kong was seized by Britain, are a distant memory in Western minds but remain in the forefront of the Chinese psyche. When the West is seen to be trying to detach Chinese territory again, it rubs salt into this still-fresh wound. Virtually no Chinese believe that Western governments have a strictly moral interest in Tibet. They are convinced that their efforts are only the latest efforts to dismember or derail China.
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The lions of human rights, particularly in European capitals, behave like poodles in Beijing. Virtually all of them spend their time trying to sell products to China. Then, in passing, they will whisper that they have to mention human rights issues because when they return home they have to say that these issues were raised. That sends an unmistakable message: This is a Western ritual; please do not pay too much attention to it. Given this record, it is not surprising that Chinese leaders have little respect for European leaders when they make grand gestures on human rights in front of their domestic audiences.
.........
Kishore Mahbubani, dean of the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy at the National University of Singapore, wrote "The New Asian Hemisphere: The Irresistible Shift of Global Power to the East."

Full article here: http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/...,2235462.story
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I think we should listen more to Hegel and baeirr, who actually live in China and can tell us their side, how they see this conflict.
It is true, the West is mostly harping on the human rights violations, yet, how is the West's record on that?

And then just the mention of China being a Communist state is enough to make us shudder!

"The Irresistible Shift of Global Power to the East." I can see it coming! I only hope the new power will be gentler than the present western one.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Hello, Dalai

by Gary Corseri / April 23rd, 2008
I think I could turn and live with animals, they are so placid and self-contained …
They do not lie awake in the dark and weep for their sins;
They do not make me sick discussing their duty to God;
Not one is dissatisfied, not one is demented with the mania of owning things;
Not one kneels to another, nor to his kind that lived thousands of years ago.

–Walt Whitman
(to be sung to the tune of “Hello, Dolly”)
I said hello, Dalai,
This is G.C., Dalai,
It’s so nice to have you back where you belong.
In your sarong, Dalai,
Lookin’ swell, Dalai–
You’re still glowin’, you’re still crowin’
That old feudal song.
I hear the monks prayin’
And the horns playin’
One of your anti-commie songs from way back when.
So … pack the yak, fellas,
Forget about Iraq, fellas,
Dalai’ll never go away again.
I said, hello, Dalai,
Holy-gee, Dalai,
Gere’s so nice to have you back where you belong.
Your inner light, Dalai–
Outa sight, Dalai!–
Just be happy, don’t be sappy–
We’ll all sing along.
I hear Iran prayin’
And Petraeus playin’
One of those Oprah-tappin’ tunes from way back when.
So … golly-Jeez, Dems,
Kiss the old man’s knees, Dems,
Bush’ll never go away,
Dalai’ll nev
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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The problem with that View Dancing Loon, is it is a very "China centric" view of tibet.

It pays close attention to the times in History when China has conquered Tibet, but Ignores the times in which China was conquered by others.

It views any government that has ruled China, AS China. So when Mongolia conquered China, that wasn't a Mongonlian government that ruled China and Tibet, in there eyes that was a Chinese government that ruled Mongolia and Tibet...

But Colonialism is a very tough pill to Swallow, England still wants to hold onto Ireland, Wales and Scotland for the same reasons, with the same arguements,

France wants to hold onto its Basque region, its mediteranean Islands, Italy wants to hold Sicily and its other mediteranean holdings.

So China is not alone in its ties to colonialism, its just the most abusive about it (lately).
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
Hi, Earth-as-one, look here- it is getting very close to happening:
Chinese government officials will meet with representatives of the Dalai Lama in the wake of weeks of tension with Tibet, according to reports from Xinhua, the Chinese state-run media


U.S. President George Bush and European Union leaders have been among those calling on China to begin a dialogue with the exiled Tibetan spiritual leader.
In mid-March, anti-government riots shook Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, kicking off a series of protests that have marred much of the Beijing Olympic torch's journey around the world.
"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."

"If in fact the government representative would meet a representative from the Dalai Lama's side this would be a major development following the months-long Tibetan unrest we've seen in this country," Chao told CTV's Canada AM.
"And it would signal to some degree that the Chinese government may be listening to the urging of the international community."
Full article here: http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Top...e_Dalai_080425
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Sofar it's just heresy with political footwork. It remains to be seen if China will actually show a real will to listen to Tibet and consider Tibetans' wish for independence.

I'm probably not the only one who thinks its a good idea. If China pulls this off it would be a major international coup...