So You Think You Know Whats Really Going On In Iraq?

no1important

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Jan 9, 2003
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mrmom2 said:
Congress is starting to think they can't win the war in Iraq 8O

Read here

Well it is turning into another Vietnam type of "war". It will just continue to drag on until the US people say "enough" and pressure the US government to think if its even worth the trouble anymore.

The Iraqi people of course will be the losers in all this.
 

jimmoyer

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Apr 3, 2005
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To Vanni ?

Did you really answer my questions you quoted?

Weren't the questions about a what if?

Was your promise to answer those questions instead a detour to a very good analysis of the false reasons for invasion proffered by the Bush administration?

Not that you have to answer any of my questions, but you answered instead the thing you all are ablaze about and should be.
 

Vanni Fucci

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Dec 26, 2004
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Re: RE: So You Think You Know

no1important said:
On a serious note though, I wonder who took that picture, I also wonder if the newspaper who published picture will be charged. Even though Saddam is a creep, I believe it violates the Geneva Convention. Any thoughts?

The only people that have access to Saddam Hussein are American military personnel...

...and I read an article somewhere that reported that Saddam is sueing the British tabloid for printing that picture...

...what a crazy world we live in... :p
 

Vanni Fucci

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Re: RE: So You Think You Know Whats Really Going On In Iraq?

jimmoyer said:
To Vanni ?

Did you really answer my questions you quoted?

Weren't the questions about a what if?

Was your promise to answer those questions instead a detour to a very good analysis of the false reasons for invasion proffered by the Bush administration?

Not that you have to answer any of my questions, but you answered instead the thing you all are ablaze about and should be.

Sorry my response was not to your satisfaction Jimmy,

I posted what I did to illustrate that removing Saddam from power did not happen for any nobler purpose than to lay hands on the Iraqi oilfields...

I posted what I did to show that pondering the 'what if' of Saddam remaining in power was a moot point, as the US did not invade Iraq for humanitarian purposes...

We may just as easily, and with just as much relevance, ponder the 'what if' of Saddam becoming a Las Vegas showgirl...
 

jimmoyer

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Pondering what the Middle East would be like with France, Russia and Germany doing business with Saddam still in power having got rid of the embargo they complained about is a world of a difference than contemplating if Saddam became a Las Vegas showgirl.

None of the moral accountants ever contemplate the alternatives. They count only what they see in front of them with an immediacy that denies the effects of the long term.

Moral accountants are very much like the bean counters in the corporate world who only look at the immediacy of what is in front of them such as the bi-quarterly reports, the here and now, and nothing of the future or of parallel alternatives.
 

Vanni Fucci

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Re: RE: So You Think You Know Whats Really Going On In Iraq?

jimmoyer said:
Pondering what the Middle East would be like with France, Russia and Germany doing business with Saddam still in power having got rid of the embargo they complained about is a world of a difference than contemplating if Saddam became a Las Vegas showgirl.

None of the moral accountants ever contemplate the alternatives. They count only what they see in front of them with an immediacy that denies the effects of the long term.

Moral accountants are very much like the bean counters in the corporate world who only look at the immediacy of what is in front of them such as the bi-quarterly reports, the here and now, and nothing of the future or of parallel alternatives.

Well that's easy enough...had Saddam not been toppled, he would have continued to illegally sell oil, he would have continued to build palaces...he would have continued to commit human rights offences and murder...people would have continued to get rich from the Oil for Food Program while the Iraqi people suffered...

However, none of this justifies the fact that the US illegally invaded a sovereign nation to gain access to their resources, and has committed human rights offences and murder, and has violated countless international conventions and treaties condemning torture of prisoners...

But what pisses me off the most in all this is that Saddam will be made to pay, as he should, but what of Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld...who will make them pay for the damage that they've caused in the name of imperialism and avarice???

Moral accountant??? You seem to be fixated with the revenue column, and pay no mind to the expenses...the moral equity in Iraq is looking rather red to me...
 

jimmoyer

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How quickly you breeze through the matter.

And how quickly you return to the regularly scheduled programming.

Let me begin with what you allowed of the alternative:

Vanni said:

Well that's easy enough...had Saddam not been toppled, he would have continued to illegally sell oil, he would have continued to build palaces...he would have continued to commit human rights offences and murder...people would have continued to get rich from the Oil for Food Program while the Iraqi people suffered...

---end of vanni quote

....and the continuing of paying Palestinian families for the loss of their son or daughter who committed homicidal suicide...

and more at a later time...

dwell there for a moment...

and I do appreciate the value of what you say, and intend in no way to cancel what your rightful judgement.
 

Vanni Fucci

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Re: RE: So You Think You Know Whats Really Going On In Iraq?

jimmoyer said:
How quickly you breeze through the matter.

And how quickly you return to the regularly scheduled programming.

Yeah, sorry about that too Jimmy,

I'm at work right now, and don't have the time to devote to covering all the angles...

...don't think that because I didn't post something, that I haven't given thought to it though...I've wrestled with this for a long time now, for in the beginning, I supported the war in Iraq, and was pissed off that my governement didn't...I've done a hell of a lot of reading since then, and have obviously grown substantially because of it...

...bottom line is, and this will apply to everything we will experience as human beings:

It matters little what one may or may not believe, what counts is the resultant actions...

Have I acted on my beliefs? Other than to post my dissenting views on the matter, and try to educate people as to the nature of the conflict, no I have not...so I may be guilty of an act of omission...but when weighed against an act of aggression, which would be the greater evil?
 

Derry McKinney

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May 21, 2005
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RE: So You Think You Know

Your premise is wrong, Mr. Moyers. Saddam Hussein was a bad man, but the money from smuggled oil wasn't exactly a secret and most countries wanted to get rid of the sanctions that were killing people. Most countries also wanted to replace those sanctions with something else.

Nobody, not the United States and not the Kingdom of Outer Sabatia, tried to stop the smuggling or the dishonesty. Everybody knew about it, but nobody cared.

You are making excuses for those that didn't care to jusify the crimes that your country committed.
 

jimmoyer

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Vanni, that was a great reply !!!

Interesting.

In matters of great passion and severe, rigid points of view, it is very hard to ask a question about what if another course of action was taken and what about those ramifications?

People are automaticly suspicious and sometimes rightfully so that such a question seeks to avoid the evils done in the here and now.

It is very difficult to present this as a game theory, but game theory is often exceedingly excellent at predictions.

All leaders, not necessarily we the citizens, must always ask if another course of action may contain more evil that is hidden to us.

In a world where Saddam is still in power, the French, Germans and Russians would actively seek an end to an embargo so that all their contracts could be paid.

You see this even now when not one of them were able to forgive 100 percent of the debts Saddam owed them.

Try giving a new country a chance? Yeah. Debt forgiveness would be a start.

So considering how Saddam's business would enhance his power and his dreams, I can only wonder what greater evil would have festered.

Along with the wall Israel built, and along with Arafat dying, the third part of the trifecta of lowered suicide homicides in Palestine is there is no longer a Saddam paying families for the loss of their child suiciders.

That paying off of the martyrs was as psychologically sickening to Palestinian families and made the sick families even more of a sick psychosis.

Imagine deft incentives to the children?

Yeah.

And meanwhile the nuclear facilities get built up. And meanwhile Kuwait worries again.

Missle radius increases.

The dream of Nebachadnezzer in the Garden of Eden.
Saddam followed that by having every brick and stone stamped with his Saddam insignia, just like Nebachadnezzer.

Meanwhile another thoughtful decade where children turned in parents, brothers turned in sisters to gain favor with the police state or to save one's own life or buisness as the choice of the devil continually dominates the psychosis of their every working day.

A nation of liars. Cheats.

More psychotic than most armchair intellectuals could possibly imagine.

Hidden from you, it looks lessor of the two evils, doesn't it?
 

Ocean Breeze

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Jun 5, 2005
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http://www.cjrdaily.org/archives/001570.asp


Knowing or not being informed as to what goes on In Iraq seems to be directly related to the US media reporting.

this is one aspect that is being observed and analyzed by many.

.......as it goes to the US frame of reference re: the Invasion & other issues.........and the resulting inaccurate/insufficient knowledge base.

***********
http://tvnewslies.org/blog/?p=13


(anyone notice that blog sites have more valid info /opinions than the "media" or "news"-----ergo their current popularity
 

Ocean Breeze

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http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=1&p=12517&s2=13


there is the US(G) version .....

........and then there is the Iraqi version.


who to believe???

no one absolutely...........but given the "credibility " issue of the USG (propensity for habitual /obsessive deceptions and distortions)........will go with the Iraqis .
 

jimmoyer

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Here's another angle too little considered by Ocean Breeze:

Suicide Bombing Leaves 24 Dead in Northern Iraq
Blast at Bank Kills Children, Retirees; 3 U.S. Soldiers Die in Separate Attacks

By Andy Mosher and Marwan Ani
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, June 15, 2005; Page A18

BAGHDAD, June 14 -- A man standing in a line of people waiting for government paychecks in northern Iraq detonated a bomb strapped to his waist Tuesday, killing himself and at least 23 others, many of them retirees and children selling wares in a nearby market.

How about that Ocean Breeze ?




The devastating blast in Kirkuk wounded more than 80 people and left surrounding streets "full of blood of the wounded and killed," one survivor, Nawzad Omar, 50, said later at a local hospital.



Youth gather to look at the wreckage of a vehicle following a car bomb in the northeastern city of Baquba 14 June 2005. Ten Iraqis, including two children, were killed and seven wounded early today by a car bomb north of Baghdad, according to security and hospital sources. (Ali Yussef - AFP)



News From Iraq
Panel Is Revisiting Annan Ties to Firm
Suicide Bombing Leaves 24 Dead in Northern Iraq
Deep Throat of Downing Street
Battle-Hard G.I.'s Learn To Release Their Pain
Guantanamo Bay to Stay Open, Cheney Says
More News
Faces of the Fallen


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The Ansar al-Sunna Army, one of the most violent insurgent groups in Iraq, asserted responsibility for the bombing, the Associated Press reported.

South of Kirkuk, in the town of Kenaan, a suicide car bomber killed five Iraqi soldiers at a road checkpoint, and a mortar attack left the town's police station in flames, the AP reported. And in Habbaniya in western Anbar province police said they had discovered 24 bodies dumped in two separate areas.

The U.S. military, meanwhile, reported that two soldiers attached to a Marine unit were killed Monday near the western city of Ramadi when an explosive device struck their vehicle. Also, a roadside bombing killed a U.S. soldier Tuesday on Baghdad's south side.

Kirkuk, an oil-rich city about 150 miles north of Baghdad, is home to a mix of ethnic Arabs, Kurds and Turkmens and has been the scene of frequent violence in the past two years. Under Saddam Hussein's rule, the Iraqi government expelled Kurds by the thousands and re-populated the city with Arabs. But with Hussein's ouster in April 2003 and the strong showing of Kurdish parties in national elections this year, Kurds have returned to Kirkuk and are seeking to make it the capital of an autonomous northern region.

Kirkuk's police chief, Maj. Gen. Torhan Yousif, said the bomber was carrying more than 100 pounds of explosives when he joined a line at the government-run Rafidain Bank. When he detonated the device, the explosion killed and wounded civilians, police officers and employees of local political parties. It also severely damaged the bank building and surrounding shops.

The AP reported that children and street vendors selling products including sugar and kitchen utensils were among those killed, according to Capt. Salam Zangana, an official at the hospital where the victims were being brought.

"Enough killing and terrorism, enough bloodshed," cried a woman who identified herself as Umm Khalid and was looking for her son, a newspaper vendor. "We became tired and we want for God to help the Iraqi people."

Yousif said the bank and the line outside was heavily guarded, but that the bomber had somehow skirted the security. "This is considered a major security flaw, for which all the security plans should be looked over again," he said.

A recent succession of grisly discoveries by Iraqi authorities continued Monday when police discovered 17 bodies 80 miles west of Baghdad and another seven near Hit, about 95 northwest of the capital. None was immediately identified.

Four of the 17 bodies found by Iraqi soldiers had been beheaded, according to Abdul Munim Ahmed, a physician at a hospital in nearby Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province.

In Hit, the head of the local hospital, Ahmed Jarrallah, said two of the seven bodies discovered there were women, and both had been beheaded. A statement posted at a mosque in Hit asserted that the seven had been killed by members of the Ansar al-Sunna Army. The statement called the victims "traitors" who had "been helping the occupier fight the holy warriors" by working as private contractors who supplied cement.

Iraq's government announced Tuesday that security forces had captured a man who built explosive devices for roadside explosives and car bombs.

Jassim Hazan Hamadi Bazi, also known as Abu Ahmed, was described in a government statement as a key member of an al Qaeda cell who crafted and sold bombs at an electronics repair shop in Balad. Bazi was apprehended on June 7, the statement said.
 

Ocean Breeze

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 5, 2005
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Re: RE: So You Think You Know Whats Really Going On In Iraq?

jimmoyer said:
Here's another angle too little considered by Ocean Breeze:

Suicide Bombing Leaves 24 Dead in Northern Iraq
Blast at Bank Kills Children, Retirees; 3 U.S. Soldiers Die in Separate Attacks

By Andy Mosher and Marwan Ani
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, June 15, 2005; Page A18

BAGHDAD, June 14 -- A man standing in a line of people waiting for government paychecks in northern Iraq detonated a bomb strapped to his waist Tuesday, killing himself and at least 23 others, many of them retirees and children selling wares in a nearby market.

How about that Ocean Breeze ?




The devastating blast in Kirkuk wounded more than 80 people and left surrounding streets "full of blood of the wounded and killed," one survivor, Nawzad Omar, 50, said later at a local hospital.



Youth gather to look at the wreckage of a vehicle following a car bomb in the northeastern city of Baquba 14 June 2005. Ten Iraqis, including two children, were killed and seven wounded early today by a car bomb north of Baghdad, according to security and hospital sources. (Ali Yussef - AFP)



News From Iraq
Panel Is Revisiting Annan Ties to Firm
Suicide Bombing Leaves 24 Dead in Northern Iraq
Deep Throat of Downing Street
Battle-Hard G.I.'s Learn To Release Their Pain
Guantanamo Bay to Stay Open, Cheney Says
More News
Faces of the Fallen


Free E-mail Newsletters
Today's Headlines & Columnists
See a Sample | Sign Up Now
Breaking News Alerts
See a Sample | Sign Up Now

The Ansar al-Sunna Army, one of the most violent insurgent groups in Iraq, asserted responsibility for the bombing, the Associated Press reported.

South of Kirkuk, in the town of Kenaan, a suicide car bomber killed five Iraqi soldiers at a road checkpoint, and a mortar attack left the town's police station in flames, the AP reported. And in Habbaniya in western Anbar province police said they had discovered 24 bodies dumped in two separate areas.

The U.S. military, meanwhile, reported that two soldiers attached to a Marine unit were killed Monday near the western city of Ramadi when an explosive device struck their vehicle. Also, a roadside bombing killed a U.S. soldier Tuesday on Baghdad's south side.

Kirkuk, an oil-rich city about 150 miles north of Baghdad, is home to a mix of ethnic Arabs, Kurds and Turkmens and has been the scene of frequent violence in the past two years. Under Saddam Hussein's rule, the Iraqi government expelled Kurds by the thousands and re-populated the city with Arabs. But with Hussein's ouster in April 2003 and the strong showing of Kurdish parties in national elections this year, Kurds have returned to Kirkuk and are seeking to make it the capital of an autonomous northern region.

Kirkuk's police chief, Maj. Gen. Torhan Yousif, said the bomber was carrying more than 100 pounds of explosives when he joined a line at the government-run Rafidain Bank. When he detonated the device, the explosion killed and wounded civilians, police officers and employees of local political parties. It also severely damaged the bank building and surrounding shops.

The AP reported that children and street vendors selling products including sugar and kitchen utensils were among those killed, according to Capt. Salam Zangana, an official at the hospital where the victims were being brought.

"Enough killing and terrorism, enough bloodshed," cried a woman who identified herself as Umm Khalid and was looking for her son, a newspaper vendor. "We became tired and we want for God to help the Iraqi people."

Yousif said the bank and the line outside was heavily guarded, but that the bomber had somehow skirted the security. "This is considered a major security flaw, for which all the security plans should be looked over again," he said.

A recent succession of grisly discoveries by Iraqi authorities continued Monday when police discovered 17 bodies 80 miles west of Baghdad and another seven near Hit, about 95 northwest of the capital. None was immediately identified.

Four of the 17 bodies found by Iraqi soldiers had been beheaded, according to Abdul Munim Ahmed, a physician at a hospital in nearby Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province.

In Hit, the head of the local hospital, Ahmed Jarrallah, said two of the seven bodies discovered there were women, and both had been beheaded. A statement posted at a mosque in Hit asserted that the seven had been killed by members of the Ansar al-Sunna Army. The statement called the victims "traitors" who had "been helping the occupier fight the holy warriors" by working as private contractors who supplied cement.

Iraq's government announced Tuesday that security forces had captured a man who built explosive devices for roadside explosives and car bombs.

Jassim Hazan Hamadi Bazi, also known as Abu Ahmed, was described in a government statement as a key member of an al Qaeda cell who crafted and sold bombs at an electronics repair shop in Balad. Bazi was apprehended on June 7, the statement said.


hmmm. coming from a MJ fan........ :roll: