So the USA in Iraq is illegal huh?

[PoisonPete2]

I think you can agree the US had some indirect involvement. The Soviet Union and Eastern Europe began to crumble economically because they were trying to keep up with the arms race. Reaganomics?

Answer - excellent point - likely no nation is financially capable of maintaining a war front without seriously effecting their citizens' welfare
............
Actually it was John Locke, an English Philosopher, and while we're on the topic, additional origins can be traced to Ancient Athens, Magna Carta, English Bill of Rights and Mayflower Compact. And of course it hasn't been put into full effect, democracy is a journey not a destination.
Answer - Also Rousseau. But your point being that the document was founded on a tradition of Liberal thought, not something out of thin air.
..............
You guys were 2 years slow in the WW2 and extended the war by not allowing bombing of Krupp tank factories as he was partnered with General Motors
I’d like some more information on that if you could please.
Answer - check out 'The Arms of Krupp' and 'I.G. Farbin'.
------------
I suggest you watch “50 years war – Israel and the Arabs” a very unbiased documentary, the middle east isn’t black and white
Answer - it certainly isn't. I'll search for the documentary
............
Nobody has given up anything, that’s what the whole world is complaining about.
Answer - It's just sad to see only 20,000 of your forces in Afgahnistan where the Terrorists hide and 130,000 troops in Iraq where they ain't. And now F-16s going to Pakastan, a very unstable dictatorship in a tussle with a democracy (India)
..............
Answer to the rest - your sad diatribe reflects the rising far right sentiment in the U.S. that clearly indicates to me that the McCarthy era was just a rehearsal for the Fascism erupting down there.

Only someone that is far left makes that claim

Answer - No. I just see the fanatics of the Christian right gaining control in the U.S. as much more dangerous than the fanatical Ismamists of the Middle East. They have more and bigger toys.

 

[Jo Canadian]

Answer to the rest - your sad diatribe reflects the rising far right sentiment in the U.S. that clearly indicates to me that the McCarthy era was just a rehearsal for the Fascism erupting down there.

Only someone that is far left makes that claim

I don't know, YOUR own dictionary spells it out pretty good:

The American Heritage Dictionary (Houghton Mifflin Company, 1983) as "*fas-cism* (fash'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."

Was Buddy here far left??

Mussolini, who helped create modern fascism, viewed liberal ideas as the enemy. "The Fascist conception of life," he wrote, "stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with the State. It is opposed to classical liberalism [which] denied the State in the name of the individual; Fascism reasserts the rights of the State as expressing the real essence of the individual."

Let's also not forget this fellow, who is definetly not Far left, but seems to be Bushco's influence:

-- "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no
need to seize the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How
do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

 

[Aizlynne]

USA #1:

Agreed... assholes transcend ALL borders... lol.

I actually watched 911 by Michael Moore and he sounded like living in Canada is Fantasy Land.

I LOCK my doors every night and have still been robbed 3 times. We have people killed/almost killed every weekend in Calgary where I live (which he didn't visit I noticed) and for all the bs he tried to peddle about guns... give me a break. We have people shot every weekend just about in this City and we are small compared to Vancouver or Toronto.

I guess what I am trying to say is we are probably very similar and have similar problems and issues. Part of what is going on is that telivised media in Canada bashes the US and that is the mantra of the Liberal gov't who runs the state sponsored Communist Broadcasting Corp. The only thing I ever found CBC good for was hockey and Air Farce (and perhaps Red Green). I don't buy into their spin that you are seeing on this board. I try to cut through the crap. There is lot's of social re-engineering going on that contributes to Cdn's poor view of the US (but not all of us).

Living in the mountains brings good folks from all over the world to our beautiful country. I have yet to meet one asshole from ANYWHERE... especially the US. You are gracious and friendly and looking to have joy and prosperity, like all of us.

So welcome friend and we hope you enjoy your stay every time you come for a visit. You really must check out Alberta too, it has some rare and unique beauty all of it's own.!

 

[I think not]

Answer - excellent point - likely no nation is financially capable of maintaining a war front without seriously effecting their citizens' welfare

I definately agree with you, look at OUR budget numbers lately? 8O

Answer - Also Rousseau. But your point being that the document was founded on a tradition of Liberal thought, not something out of thin air.

Most definately. However, I will disagree with you on Rousseau, he was the foundation of the French Constitution in 1789 along with Voltaire and Diderot.

Answer - check out 'The Arms of Krupp' and 'I.G. Farbin'.

Thanks, I will.

Answer - It's just sad to see only 20,000 of your forces in Afgahnistan where the Terrorists hide and 130,000 troops in Iraq where they ain't. And now F-16s going to Pakastan, a very unstable dictatorship in a tussle with a democracy (India)

Agreed

Answer - No. I just see the fanatics of the Christian right gaining control in the U.S. as much more dangerous than the fanatical Ismamists of the Middle East. They have more and bigger toys.

Agreed

 

[I think not]

Answer to the rest - your sad diatribe reflects the rising far right sentiment in the U.S. that clearly indicates to me that the McCarthy era was just a rehearsal for the Fascism erupting down there.

Only someone that is far left makes that claim

I don't know, YOUR own dictionary spells it out pretty good:

The American Heritage Dictionary (Houghton Mifflin Company, 1983) as "*fas-cism* (fash'iz'em) n. A system of government that exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with belligerent nationalism."

Was Buddy here far left??

Mussolini, who helped create modern fascism, viewed liberal ideas as the enemy. "The Fascist conception of life," he wrote, "stresses the importance of the State and accepts the individual only in so far as his interests coincide with the State. It is opposed to classical liberalism [which] denied the State in the name of the individual; Fascism reasserts the rights of the State as expressing the real essence of the individual."

Let's also not forget this fellow, who is definetly not Far left, but seems to be Bushco's influence:

-- "Beware the leader who bangs the drums of war in order to whip the citizenry into patriotic fervor, for patriotism is indeed a double-edged sword. It both emboldens the blood just as it narrows the mind. And when the drums of war have reached a fever pitch and the blood boils with hate and the mind has closed, the leader will have no
need to seize the rights of the citizenry. Rather, the citizenry, infused with fear and blinded by patriotism, will offer up all their rights unto the leader and gladly so. How
do I know? For this is what I have done. And I am Caesar."

Instead of quoting dictionaries, dictators and emperors why don't you engage in some constructive dialogue?

If anything that deviates from YOUR views and perceptions can be encompassed in what you just quoted. Should I be doing the same?

 

[mrmom2]

I don't know if it was legal or not I'll leave that for the lawyers to decide :x But what the U.S. is doing while there sounds illegal to me
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/RUS503A.html

 

[Jo Canadian]

Instead of quoting dictionaries, dictators and emperors why don't you engage in some constructive dialogue?

:? Those weren't put there to give my point of view. More like to show (dictionary) the established meaning for the term, and to perhaps reflect on current events and what comparisons are frighteningly similar.

If anything that deviates from YOUR views and perceptions can be encompassed in what you just quoted. Should I be doing the same?

I like history, it's a very useful tool that helps us learn from our mistakes. That's what separates man from the animal, is that mistakes are made and learned in ones life but if it cannot be passed on to be repeated then you're doomed to repeat it. Written history is a collection of mistakes and achievements of previous generations that we can use as a tool to do things differently under similar circumstances. Those quotes were carefully thought out and put there mainly to show: "Hey doesn't this sound a little familiar?" If YOU have any quotes worth using as a reference, I can't see anyone else here complaining unless they had nothing to do with the topic on hand.

:x Everybody is caught up in the now and is not realizing that we've already been through a version of this sh*t before. Are we that stupid not to see it?

I'd like to say more but at the end of every sentence I get a call to deal with (call centre) and it takes me f o r e v e r just to say anything.

 

[Reverend Blair]

I don't know if it was legal or not I'll leave that for the lawyers to decide But what the U.S. is doing while there sounds illegal to me

It is illegal. This is the kind of thing that's really behind George Bush's sustained assault on the UN and international institutions like the World Bank. As long as this doesn't make the 6:00 news on the main networks, they're able to get away with it.

 

[I think not]

I don't know if it was legal or not I'll leave that for the lawyers to decide But what the U.S. is doing while there sounds illegal to me

It is illegal. This is the kind of thing that's really behind George Bush's sustained assault on the UN and international institutions like the World Bank. As long as this doesn't make the 6:00 news on the main networks, they're able to get away with it.

Canada's participation in Kosovo, this undeclared war against a sovereign state was carried out without public awareness or debate in Parliament.

Welcome aboard

 

[Reverend Blair]

Canada's participation in Kosovo, this undeclared war against a sovereign state was carried out without public awareness or debate in Parliament.

Welcome aboard

And don't think for a second that I was quiet about that.

It did have a tacit nod from the UN...kind of a "Well, we won't oppose you much, but we won't support you either." I don't agree with that sort of approach because it sets a double standard where some countries can ignore international law because their purposes are (or at least are portrayed as being) somehow more noble than the purposes of others.

If it would have been a UN mission that started much earlier, it is likely that much bloodshed and suffering could have been avoided.

 

[jimmoyer]

You notice the parallels between Yugoslavia and Iraq ?

Neither was a war of imminent danger.
Despite the assertions made by various leaders.

Neither was a war sanctioned by the UN.

And yet I fear the alternative future we would have if their status quo was allowed to continue.

By the way can anyone point to anytime in history when two full-fledge democracies waged war with each other?

 

[I think not]

Canada's participation in Kosovo, this undeclared war against a sovereign state was carried out without public awareness or debate in Parliament.

Welcome aboard

And don't think for a second that I was quiet about that.

It did have a tacit nod from the UN...kind of a "Well, we won't oppose you much, but we won't support you either." I don't agree with that sort of approach because it sets a double standard where some countries can ignore international law because their purposes are (or at least are portrayed as being) somehow more noble than the purposes of others.

If it would have been a UN mission that started much earlier, it is likely that much bloodshed and suffering could have been avoided.

Come on Rev. I think you're fairly rigid in your beliefs, but I also believe you can acknowledge (reluctantly at times) certain issues. Canada participated in Serbia without UN approval, hence it was illegal, as illegal as the US war on Iraq was. Tacit nod or not.

Every country in my opinion has f***d up in one way or another, each with its own capabilities, I don't turn a blind eye to what the US government has done and continues to do, but can't we say the same for other countries also? Just because we are the worlds only "superpower" does that justify everyone else's crimes or apathy? Is it a race on who does more, hence the one with the most crimes is "evil" and the ones with the least are exonerated, forgotten and swept under the carpet?

Whether we get involved or not, there is always something to complain about. Iraq was an oil war. What was Vietnam? We didn’t do anything in Rwanda, where was Europe? Why didn’t anyone accuse the French and the UN for Darfur with the same fervor as the US?

 

[Reverend Blair]

Come on Rev. I think you're fairly rigid in your beliefs, but I also believe you can acknowledge (reluctantly at times) certain issues. Canada participated in Serbia without UN approval, hence it was illegal, as illegal as the US war on Iraq was. Tacit nod or not.

Which is why I said "It did have a tacit nod from the UN...kind of a "Well, we won't oppose you much, but we won't support you either." I don't agree with that sort of approach because it sets a double standard where some countries can ignore international law because their purposes are (or at least are portrayed as being) somehow more noble than the purposes of others. "

In other words, our participation was illegal and I don't agree with us not being critical of that involvement.

Every country in my opinion has f***d up in one way or another, each with its own capabilities, I don't turn a blind eye to what the US government has done and continues to do, but can't we say the same for other countries also?

I have and continue to say the same of other countries.

Just because we are the worlds only "superpower" does that justify everyone else's crimes or apathy?

No. Your continued involvment in war crimes and crimes against humanity sets a bad example though. The US claims to be the leader of the free world. "Do as I say and not as I do," is not a phrase that real leaders use. Neither is, "Well they do it to."

Iraq was an oil war.

Yes.

What was Vietnam?

A debacle based on ideological moronity and fuelled by greed. By the way, oil played a part in the Vietnam war as well. Oil exploration by soundings (state of the art back then) was covered by the explosions of jets dumping their bombs before landing on aircraft carriers. While oil wasn't a major cause for the war, the chance to look for new fields (off-shore in this case...also a new technology) helped to encourage corporate support for the war.

We didn’t do anything in Rwanda, where was Europe?

Which part of Europe? Some were asking that something be done, others were apathetic, and France was fully with the US in blocking any action at all. While the official US story is that they were still hurting from Somalia, their actively blocking action by others points more towards protecting mineral interests in neighbouring Uganda. France was protecting the same sort of interests in Rwanda.

What set off the genocide was a plane carrying the Rwandan president being shot down by Ugandan guerilla fighters. The rocket they used was of US manufacture and had been part of Saddam's armoury during the Gulf War. It was listed as having been confiscated by the French during the end of that conflict, but they deny it.

By the way, Rwanda was a catalyst in the French beginning to examine the relationship between their foreign policy and corporate interests and the actions of their corporations when operating abroad. The investigation into that could yet see Dick Cheney indicted in a French court for his actions as CEO of Halliburton.

Why didn’t anyone accuse the French and the UN for Darfur with the same fervor as the US?

What would we accuse the UN of? Allowing the US, France, and China to block intervention? Those are the smae countries that most vociferously oppose reforms that would keep that kind of thing from happening.

Oh, sorry...I didn't just include the French, I tossed China in there too.

Are you beginning to see how this works, Jim and I think not? The US gets criticized for its actions, just like everybody else. The idea that you are somehow singled out doesn't wash. The frequency of criticism is higher because the frequency of your involvement is higher and your willingness to look at your own actions is low to non-existent.

 

[I think not]

In other words, our participation was illegal and I don't agree with us not being critical of that involvement.

You were not critical as far as the general population goes

I have and continue to say the same of other countries.

This was not an attack on you nor did I imply apathy on your end.

No. Your continued involvment in war crimes and crimes against humanity sets a bad example though. The US claims to be the leader of the free world. "Do as I say and not as I do," is not a phrase that real leaders use. Neither is, "Well they do it to."

Then don't follow by example, take a lead.

Yes.

An opinion I don't share.

A debacle based on ideological moronity and fuelled by greed. By the way, oil played a part in the Vietnam war as well. Oil exploration by soundings (state of the art back then) was covered by the explosions of jets dumping their bombs before landing on aircraft carriers. While oil wasn't a major cause for the war, the chance to look for new fields (off-shore in this case...also a new technology) helped to encourage corporate support for the war.

I'm not familiar with what you're claiming here, no comment.

Which part of Europe? Some were asking that something be done, others were apathetic, and France was fully with the US in blocking any action at all. While the official US story is that they were still hurting from Somalia, their actively blocking action by others points more towards protecting mineral interests in neighbouring Uganda. France was protecting the same sort of interests in Rwanda.

What set off the genocide was a plane carrying the Rwandan president being shot down by Ugandan guerilla fighters. The rocket they used was of US manufacture and had been part of Saddam's armoury during the Gulf War. It was listed as having been confiscated by the French during the end of that conflict, but they deny it.

By the way, Rwanda was a catalyst in the French beginning to examine the relationship between their foreign policy and corporate interests and the actions of their corporations when operating abroad. The investigation into that could yet see Dick Cheney indicted in a French court for his actions as CEO of Halliburton.

Again, where was Europe.

Are you beginning to see how this works, Jim and I think not? The US gets criticized for its actions, just like everybody else. The idea that you are somehow singled out doesn't wash.

It certainly washes well enough on this board.

The frequency of criticism is higher because the frequency of your involvement is higher and your willingness to look at your own actions is low to non-existent.

Yes apathy makes the US get more involved. If thats the tone you think I've had on this board then I suggest you read my posts.

 

[jimmoyer]

Reverend Blair manages to find a way to make sure one situation and one country is worse than the others.

Is his anger equal to all those who have sinned?

We'd have to answer no to that question.

Believe me that stage play, entitled American Sin gets more people to buy tickets than a "Night with Saddam."

It is something they hate to admit.

And here's my left-handed praise of all liberals. They have a beautiful achilles heel of believing they are fair to all.

 

[Vanni Fucci]

Re: RE: So the USA in Iraq is illegal huh?

And here's my left-handed praise of all liberals. They have a beautiful achilles heel of believing they are fair to all.

Whereas the right-wingers are fair to only themselves...I have to wonder how right that thinking really is... :roll:

 

[Reverend Blair]

You were not critical as far as the general population goes

How could possibly know that? Have you read anything I've written from that period of time?

Then don't follow by example, take a lead

I've written about that too...urging the Canadian government to go ahead and take a lead in working with the UN and developing countries.

Again, where was Europe

Europe is a collection of nation-states, not a single entity. That was even more true at the time the Rwandan genocide occurred. You might as well ask where North America was. Or South America. Or Asia. Or the rest of Africa.

It certainly washes well enough on this board.

Nope.

Reverend Blair manages to find a way to make sure one situation and one country is worse than the others.

Not true. I do give credit where credit is due.

 

[mrmom2]

I will bet you never heard this story in the states or here for that matter 8O Corporate mass media covering up for Bush and the gangs big lie :x
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5170380-108933,00.html

 

[I think not]

How could possibly know that? Have you read anything I've written from that period of time?

Rev, I am not speaking of you personally, I am speaking of the reaction of the general population.

I've written about that too...urging the Canadian government to go ahead and take a lead in working with the UN and developing countries.

Again, not a personal reference.

Europe is a collection of nation-states, not a single entity. That was even more true at the time the Rwandan genocide occurred. You might as well ask where North America was. Or South America. Or Asia. Or the rest of Africa.

Good point, where were they? Here's an idea, where there is a will there is a way. No will = apathy

Nope.

I disagree, I've seen you delete posts when members try and reference an article because you don't believe it. Your arguments for that are lies and propaganda. Is everything you don't believe in a lie? And even if it is, why don't you let another "reality" be heard?

And don't take things so personally, if we all agreed what is there to debate over?