So the USA in Iraq is illegal huh?

[Extrafire]

In what way is the American system more democratic, if I may ask? Isn't democracy more than just a vote in every 4 years, but also - for example - the freedom of speech?

In the States Members of Congress or the Senate vote according to their concience or according to their constituents wishes. At election time they have to justify their voting record and all kinds of different items. They can vote against the Prez, they can vote against their own party, they can represent their people and not get kicked out. Referenda are common. That doesn't happen here. In essence, the people have a lot more say in the running of their gov't.

Aha. And your father you think is a good representative of the NDP?

Probably not, but then that wasn't my point

Now, many members are indeed dictatorships. But what else? Should we ignore them? Whether one likes it or not, the UN can be used to push for democratic reforms.

Since the majority are dictatorships, it stands to reason that they don't much like democracy and would never push for democratic reforms.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Since the majority are dictatorships, it stands to reason that they don't much like democracy and would never push for democratic reforms.

The UN has consistently pushed countries to become democratic. They have had more success than any other institution.

 

[no1important]

RE: So the USA in Iraq is

It will be interesting to see how many free elections Iraq has when America ever pulls out.

 

[mrmom2]

It sure dosn't look like their going to pull out anytime soon
http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/040805K.shtml

 

[no1important]

RE: So the USA in Iraq is

Well it seems a large number of Iraqi's do not want US there anymore and wants them to leave. Story Here

An interesting read.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: So the USA in Iraq is

I heard there were tens of thousands burning Bush in effigy and generally having a party today. the only reason they are burning effigies is that they can't get a hold of him in person.

 

[UofSaskatchewan]

so let me get this straight. The people dont want them there, but they're there(Americans I mean) Claiming they freed the Iraqis, but in reality all they want is the oil. Ok, U.N doesnt support them as any country with a brain for leader, excluding PM Blair, ass kisser does. Yet, all Americans I debate with FIRMLY believe they are doing the right thing.... Logic is... arrrrgh.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: So the USA in Iraq is

Iraqis took the streets today and lit pictures of George Bush's face on fire. I guess that makes him just as beloved as Saddam.

 

[UofSaskatchewan]

Re: RE: So the USA in Iraq is

Iraqis took the streets today and lit pictures of George Bush's face on fire. I guess that makes him just as beloved as Saddam.

Yah, aint life grand?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: So the USA in Iraq is

Not really. I do wish it would change though. Are none of these people who have their faces sparked up capable of understasnding why?

 

[UofSaskatchewan]

Re: RE: So the USA in Iraq is

Not really. I do wish it would change though. Are none of these people who have their faces sparked up capable of understasnding why?

Who can understand what Bush does. You cant delve into the mind of the beast, its not possible. Little thought process flows through many minds that get sparked up as you say. The people protest against that particular person interfering with their country. If I had bushes face, I might like to spark it as well. Do you honestly think people like Bush has the capability to understand reality? He knows hes in power and he likes it, its like ecstasy.

 

[I think not]

To: JorCON5

Well perhpas I am little late in responding to you, but I will certainly like to express my opinion on the topic.

As a Canadian I feel that the war on Iraq is a charade. The justification given is also a load of garbage. I know as an American the ideals of "justice" and "democracy" have been force fed to you as you grew up. It is all just jingoism in my opinion. In the international community that attitude doesn't fly.

There is no doubt in my mind that the war in Iraq was predetermined long before Bush was even in power and the justification of the war wasn't exactly true. It wasn't exactly true because apparently he never possessed WMD's, I sincerely doubt however that anyone can deny Saddam Hussein was a dangerous figure in the Middle East. He demonstrated this by invading Kuwait. That was his first fatal mistake, the entire global community basically went after his ass because of what? Oil reserves. (Desert Storm) Should he had been left to control more oil at the time, we may have had an energy crisis. And had we done nothing, Saudi Arabia most likely would have been next on the list. But because it was the world under the auspices of the UN, it was "acceptable" to kill thousands.

Perhaps we are force fed "justice" and "democracy", I don't deny it, and why are those values jingoism? And why wouldn't they fly in the international community?

The media channelled the pain of 9/11 onto Iraq. What really spooked out many Canadians and international observers is the fact that nobody in the U.S. questioned Bush's motives.

Many things changed in the US after 09/11, there is no doubt Bush used that to instill fear into the people, but who ever said we didn't question his motives? Whoever said we sat back and got spoon fed the bullshit that comes out of the White House? Did you not see massive rallies across the United States against the war? Did you not read our newspapers and magazine articles? Our children in our schools not going to class in protest of the war?

The claim of spreading justice and freedom is a load of crap. Where was the U.S. when atrocities happened in Sierra Leone, Rwanda, Sudan, etc?

You're absolutely correct, we weren't there. But why are we expected to be everywhere? Anytime we go anywhere it won't be for a good cause it will be for an "evil" imperialistic purpose, wouldn't it? I think you can safely say, that will be the general view of the world. In that case I think its a no win scenario.

I'm not trying to insult you as an American. I am actually sorry and worried that your media is destroying your ability to think and question (apparently 70% of Americans get 100% of their information from TV). I find it strange that a country built on questioning the establishment and founded on revolution is now so scared of doing so. There seems to be a fear of being called an anti-american. If you question your government it doesn't make you a anti-american, it makes you a good citizen. Is that a fair assumption?

It most certainly is a fair assumption, it is our duty as citizens to question our governments motives. I know of no fear of being called an anti-american that you speak of. Speaking of the media, can you tell me of one News Station that is objective anywhere in the world? The only one I would actually applaud to (and not entirely) would be the BBC.

Please don't get mad because Canada has not joined the war on Iraq, or the missile defence system. Canadians believe that the war is a sham and is upset by the U.S.'s unilateral decisions. In terms of missile defence most Canadians think it is a waste of money (all tests have failed except when the exact trajectory of the missile is given to the system. Also it will just start an arms race. What do you think?

I for one don't get mad Canada not joining the US in the war in Iraq, quite frankly I was hoping no other country would. As far as the missle defense system goes, I would have to disagree. Because whether we like it or not, any missles potentially coming to the US are flying over your heads anyway, and whos to say one of them doesn't "accidentally" land on Canadian soil, or who's to say, "they" don't intentionally target Canada, since they know our economies are interdepedant and you have no capability of fighting back. Just because the Soviet threat doesn't exist that doesn't mean other threats aren't around.

It also bothers me that whenever Canada violates NAFTA the U.S. goes nuts but when the U.S. violates it you don't seem to care. I'm talking about softwood lumber and the multiple rulings by international bodies saying that the U.S. is wrong and should repay Canada. It seems the U.S. enforces the rules only when it benefits them. What do you think?

Honestly, Bush is slave to multinationals, it may have been cheaper to delay this soft lumber issue and eventually pay the fine and in the meantime build up the economy. That's the only rational I have for it.

Also do you think that terrorism on the U.S. is a result of U.S. policy and actions. I don't think somebody randomly wakes up and decides to crash a plane into a building. I guess I'm asking if you believe that terrorism is spawned by tyranny.

I certainly believe that US foreign policy is partly the cause, not entirely however. There are people in this world that do wake up and say we will fly a plane into a building. Just as you mentioned we are force fed "justice" and "democracy", the same happens all over the world, some governments force "hatred" for America.

I would like an American to answer me these questions rather than get mad and insult Canada. I would also like any other comments or agreements/disagreements from anybody (Canadian, European, Asian, etc). I have nothing against Americans I just don't care for your government. I despise your media and I don't really care for your culture (hollywood, reality tv, deification of rich celebrities, Britany Spears, Walmart,etc).

Insults don't get anyone anywhere, perhaps however you should have a chat with a few other people on this board that actually gets them through the day insulting "the evil empire" and especially its people. As far as our culture is concerned, I have travelled quite extensively throughout Canada, perhaps more than some Canadians have, and from what I have seen, our culture differs very little if not at all with the exception of Quebec.

Having answered your questions I would like to make a general comment. Canadians seem to spend more time and effort (it is after all your 2nd national obssession) insulting, laughing at perhaps the worst of all, trying to make a point on how much different you are from Americans. And I say the worst of all, because in this process you have utterly lost your identity. What you should be doing is focusing on who you are, not who you aren't, or do you disagree?

Thanks for your time.

 

[peapod]

Its not as bad as it was a while ago think, we got our own politics to fight over now I found your post thoughtful and kind, without the usual blather we get from some americans. You are peacemaker, are you sure you are not canadian Just kidding! Your signature, thoreau is one of my favorite writers.

"Nature will bear the closest inspection. She invites us to lay our eye level with her smallest leaf, and take an insect view of its plain."

I hope you stick around think.

 

[mrmom2]

I second that one 8)

 

[I think not]

Thank you peapod and mrmom

 

[jimmoyer]

Reverend Blair and Vanni insist it was a mistake to go into Iraq and exemplifed the excited states of america's unwise use of power and furthermore both believe that it is better to have left Saddam in power and possibly would it have been also better to leave Milosovec in power.

I do not believe Serbia posed any imminent danger and yet the war there was finally countenanced.

Why was this Serbian deposed if there was no imminent danger?

 

[Vanni Fucci]

I think I've already established that both Hussein and Milosevic were assholes...but there are a lot of assholes in charge of a lot of countries all over the world...I only have to look to our southern neighbour to see evidence of that...

Yet no country that is part of the United Nations has the authority to unilaterally invade another country that is not a direct threat to their national security...Bush's impetus for invading Iraq was that his country's national security was threatened due to Iraq's impending ability to launch weapons of mass destruction. That has been proven to be false, and so it has been proven that Bush lied. Further, there is evidence that Bush had every intention of invading Iraq pre-911, only needing a valid reason.

Rather than continue this endless rhetoric of what a great president Bush is, and how he is saviour or freedom and democracy, why not give us some examples of all the good he's doing...because from where I'm sitting, all I see is a war criminal and the Whitehouse might well be the new Reichstag.

 

[Numure]

Curious forum you have here. I grew up in Detroit, MI-USA which is across the river from Windsor, ON. I’ve spent a lot more time in your country than most of you probably have in mine. I’ve found most of the folks there to be kind, nice, reasonable people. Some of you all on this forum, not so much.

Well, I doubt you know me. As my absence has been quite long. Though your opinion is, not to be insulting, doctrinated. Still, it is your right, and that I respect. Ones opinion.

Since many of you see fit to generally condemn, criticize and otherwise insult my President and my country in broad strokes and without the pretense of any sense of honest and intellectual debate, I feel a few salient points need to be made here.

Ahh, well I insult your president and country with facts to back it. And with reason. I express my opinion. He is an idiot. A tool. And a megaloman.

With the exception of Canada Dry ginger ale, the Macintosh apple, hockey, and proof that socialized medicine doesn’t work so well, exactly what has Canada done for the world?

Ah. Now, could please provide me with some proof of this? Or, you just illustrated the mass concept of American ignorance?

I don’t exactly recall seeing Canada anywhere when the Berlin wall came down or the fall of the communist Soviet Union.

I don't exactly recall seeing the USA Oh wait a second, yes now I remember. The US praising themselves and congradulating themselves on a job well done. If I remember quite well, the USSR, was on its downfall after Grubachov(Pardon the spelling of his name, Im quite sure Im way off) reforms. He set in chaos, and it was doomed. The fall of the berlin wall, was a result of Germany reuniting as one country. It was inevitable.

The United States of America, for you uniformed people, is the only country in the world with a constitution written by people who believed human beings are entitled to certain inalienable rights. Namely life, liberty and property. Your own Fathers of Confederation blessed your government with the right to unlimited taxation of its citizens.

Ignorance, and arrogance. Yet you wish to argue that you are not. I won't bother to answer an arrogant post. If you wished for intelligent debat, give me some material and I shall answer the call.

You claim our actions in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere are “illegal“ and that we have started “illegal wars.”

Yes. Thw war in Iraq was illegal. Though Afghanistan was legal. The ones that planned and executed 911 we're in Afghanistan. It was your right to retaliate.

First, you should know that most Americans don’t give a rip what the world thinks, despite what you may see in the media. 59 million Americans gave George W. Bush his mandate in our last election.

Don't worry, we know that. Lets see my perception of American thought, ''My way or the high way''. Then ask yourself why your goverments are hated? (Cept Clinton). 19.9% of Americans voted for Bush. Good victory.

Although apparently deposing 2 bit dictators who have oppressed and slaughtered thousands if not millions of their own people isn’t a worthy enough goal for some of you. So if you consider our actions in Iraq and elsewhere, illegal, it scares me to consider exactly what you think should be “legal.”

It isnt your right, or anyone elses, to dictate to other countries how they must be governed. They have a right to self goverment. If they want democracy, let them fight for it. It isnt our problem.

12 million Iraqi’s gave the world “the finger” when they held up ink-stained hands indicating they had voted--many for the first time in their lives. Since when is freedom not a worthy goal? We helped save the world twice in a century, both times because of arrogant euro-trash that doesn’t get it. A commonly held belief among many of my countrymen, is that next time, we should mind our own business.

You helped save the world when? Last I checked, the planet wasnt going to blow up. You just counter balanced a victory for one side.

The almighty United Nations was a U.S. invention (as was the League of Nations before it.) That doesn’t mean the U.S. is going to listen to dictators and pathetic nations that don’t or won’t stand up in the world for freedom and democracy. You can believe Iraq is all about oil, if that‘s what it takes to get you through your day. Although we haven’t had any Iraq oil for a long time and the U.S. economy is moving along quite nicely, thank you very much.

Oh really? Very intelligent to create an instution for the rest of the world, but only follow it at convenience.

The reason for unwavering U.S. support of Israel is that Israel is (was) the lone democracy in the region. Iraq is a wake up call to the rest of the middle east. Like it or not, life for all those regimes is going to change. Containment is no longer an option.

No. You support Isreal because a large portion of the elites in the USA are Jewish. As it has been know since men are men, the elite class rules. They decide, they have the real power. Use your deductive skill and figure out the rest.

And yet, when pond scum Muslim extremists kill 3,000 innocent Canadians, you may be able to assert the moral high ground. Until then, try to remember that when terrorists hit my country again.

Oh, justification for a moral high ground. No one has a moral hyigh ground. I can understand your sense of revenge. But try and figure out why something happenned in the first place. Instead of going around shooting everyone.

Also try to remember that you don’t have to expend a whole lot of money on military defense, since you get to be the unintended beneficiary of ours. (As if the U.S. would let Canada be invaded.)

That, is quite true I must admit. Thank you, for just that.

Who will Taiwan turn to for protection from China? Canada or the U.S. You have how many aircraft carriers, again? Oh yeah, none.

Why would we help them? Its none of our business. Its an issue between China and Taiwan. And do you, honestly think, that the US will help Taiwan now? Your hole Consumer economy is dependant on China. If china attacked Taiwan, a republican goverment, would sit back and let China be. Things have changed in the past 5 years. And even if they intervened, expect a VERY high death toll. China is the next super power of the world, remember that.

Contrary to popular belief, we don’t have any desire to rule the world. Personally, I’d prefer it if my country would stop giving money to thankless, irrelevant nations that stab us in the back at every turn and then expect a handout afterwards.

Then vote for a goverment that will stop doing that.

Hey, here’s a concept. The day the U.S. has to move Canada out of the way to help out somewhere in the world will be a good day for the world, indeed.

Because we all know how everyone wants your help. I for one, dont. You don't respect agreements and internationnal laws. Your countries word is worthless.

Perhaps Canada could do something about the slaughter of innocent people taking place in the Sudan?

Apparently, your country isnt doing much either. As long as the oil is safe, why do anything? Right?. Though that isnt an excuse for my country, we have bigger fish to fry at home. As much as its sad to see, its their affair.

Dictators can commit wholesale genocide and apparently that’s way cool with some of you. If the U.S. does anything about it, suddenly that’s “illegal.”

We don't have a right to push our way of life on others. Though stoping a genocide, I do agree.

Perhaps Canada could address the proliferation of nuclear weapons with China, North Korea or Iran?

If your country would abandon theirs, I might consider your argument. As long as you have them, they have a right to have them as well.

Oh yeah, that’s right. Neither China, North Korea or Iran fears Canada or any of the Euro-trash, who, rather than actually doing anything about anything, prefer to thump their collective chests at the U.N. and criticize the U.S.

Correct. It is an internationnal problem, lets solve it together rather then going in solo and asking help after...

This of course makes them look exactly as they are, petulant children who whine because the “big kids” won’t listen or play with them.

No, because they go around pushing everyone. Then come crying because they have no more friends.

Or you can be as spineless as Spain and just cut-and-run the first time things get rough. Yes, you certainly have to respect a country that let’s itself be bullied by fanatic thugs and murderers following 7th century Muslim dogma.

Racism, apprently, is one of your traits. Spain expressed its democratic freedom. Isnt that what you are tring to do in Iraq? Hypocrites.

In the meantime, if U.S. policies and actions are so repugnant to your sensibilities, please feel free to stop buying and using all American products. For example, the internet technology that you are using now, or the windows based operating system or apple computers, our cars and anything else made or developed in the U.S.A. You won’t hurt our feelings in the least and God knows we wouldn’t want you to be a hypocrit.

I doubt your goverment, our corparation want that. Ask them to stop exporting, and im sure many European and Asian compagnies will take their place any time.

In any event, my intent is not to claim any moral superiority here. Yet you may consider that it’s real easy to criticize your friends to the south when you don’t have any skin in the game.

Actually, Canadas opinion has alot of weight in the world. Why? Because we are respected, not feared.

To that end, it would seem to me that you (and perhaps the rest of the world) should either put up or shut up.

That is your opinion.

 

[PoisonPete2]

With the exception of Canada Dry ginger ale, the Macintosh apple, hockey, and proof that socialized medicine doesn’t work so well, exactly what has Canada done for the world?

Answer - basketball, insulin, and Neil Young
.................
I don’t exactly recall seeing Canada anywhere when the Berlin wall came down or the fall of the communist Soviet Union.

Answer - So that was America,s doing??? The Soviet Union fell into a cesspool of corruption.
..............
The United States of America, for you uniformed people, is the only country in the world with a constitution written by people who believed human beings are entitled to certain inalienable rights. Namely life, liberty and property. Your own Fathers of Confederation blessed your government with the right to unlimited taxation of its citizens.

Answer - The U.S constitution was a straight rippoff from a French philosopher. It has yet to be put into full effect. Check out the level of disenfranchisement.
.........
You claim our actions in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere are “illegal“ and that we have started “illegal wars.”

Answer - the U.S government was supporting Huisein as he slaughtered the Kurds. The attack on Iraq was unprovoked and resulted in the murder of 18,000 Iraqi civilians by U.S. forces as they rushed to seize the oil wells. The outcome of this war is not democracy but chaos and likely civil war. You guys were 2 years slow in the WW2 and extended the war by not allowing bombing of Krupp tank factories as he was partnered with General Motors.
...........
The almighty United Nations was a U.S. invention (as was the League of Nations before it.) That doesn’t mean the U.S. is going to listen to dictators and pathetic nations that don’t or won’t stand up in the world for freedom and democracy. You can believe Iraq is all about oil, if that‘s what it takes to get you through your day. Although we haven’t had any Iraq oil for a long time and the U.S. economy is moving along quite nicely, thank you very much.

Answer - The U.N. was a concept, (not an invention) whose predecessor was championed by Wilson, formed by concensus. If you look at the Dictators, many were supported by the U.S. against their people. The U.S. economy is in shambles with record defecit, growing debt and an ever-widening gap between the wealthy and the poor.
............
The reason for unwavering U.S. support of Israel is that Israel is (was) the lone democracy in the region. Iraq is a wake up call to the rest of the middle east. Like it or not, life for all those regimes is going to change. Containment is no longer an option.

Answer - in 1967 the U.S. military provided Egypt with information on Israeli tank movements and tryid a direct rocket attack against a secret Israeli nuclear complex. Some support.
.........
And yet, when pond scum Muslim extremists kill 3,000 innocent Canadians, you may be able to assert the moral high ground. Until then, try to remember that when terrorists hit my country again.

Answer - you gave up on fighting the 'pond scum Muslim extremists' and instead killed 18,000 Iraqi civilians in a country left weakened by a previous war and 10 years of sanctions.
...........
Also try to remember that you don’t have to expend a whole lot of money on military defense, since you get to be the unintended beneficiary of ours. (As if the U.S. would let Canada be invaded.)

Answer - The U.S. has invaded Canada twice and is the only country to take up arms against us.
............
Who will Taiwan turn to for protection from China? Canada or the U.S. You have how many aircraft carriers, again? Oh yeah, none.

Answer - another U.S. 'favoured' nation formed as a dictatorship by a former Triad assassin whose wife came from a family whose wealth was gained in the opium trade.
............
Answer to the rest - your sad diatribe reflects the rising far right sentiment in the U.S. that clearly indicates to me that the McCarthy era was just a rehearsal for the Fascism erupting down there.

 

[I think not]

Answer - basketball, insulin, and Neil Young

8) , 8) and 8)

Answer - So that was America,s doing??? The Soviet Union fell into a cesspool of corruption.

I think you can agree the US had some indirect involvement. The Soviet Union and Eastern Europe began to crumble economically because they were trying to keep up with the arms race. Reaganomics?

Answer - The U.S constitution was a straight rippoff from a French philosopher. It has yet to be put into full effect. Check out the level of disenfranchisement.

Actually it was John Locke, an English Philosopher, and while we're on the topic, additional origins can be traced to Ancient Athens, Magna Carta, English Bill of Rights and Mayflower Compact. And of course it hasn't been put into full effect, democracy is a journey not a destination.

Answer - the U.S government was supporting Huisein as he slaughtered the Kurds.

The effects of the cold war in itself is a crime against humanity.

The attack on Iraq was unprovoked and resulted in the murder of 18,000 Iraqi civilians by U.S. forces as they rushed to seize the oil wells. The outcome of this war is not democracy but chaos and likely civil war.

Let’s hope that will soon change

You guys were 2 years slow in the WW2 and extended the war by not allowing bombing of Krupp tank factories as he was partnered with General Motors

I’d like some more information on that if you could please.

Answer - The U.N. was a concept, (not an invention) whose predecessor was championed by Wilson, formed by concensus. If you look at the Dictators, many were supported by the U.S. against their people. The U.S. economy is in shambles with record defecit, growing debt and an ever-widening gap between the wealthy and the poor.

You said many, who were the others supported by? Don’t remind us about the current state of our deficit

Answer - in 1967 the U.S. military provided Egypt with information on Israeli tank movements and tryid a direct rocket attack against a secret Israeli nuclear complex. Some support.

I suggest you watch “50 years war – Israel and the Arabs” a very unbiased documentary, the middle east isn’t black and white

Answer - you gave up on fighting the 'pond scum Muslim extremists' and instead killed 18,000 Iraqi civilians in a country left weakened by a previous war and 10 years of sanctions.

Nobody has given up anything, that’s what the whole world is complaining about.

Answer - The U.S. has invaded Canada twice and is the only country to take up arms against us.

The United States declared War on Great Britain on June 12, 1812. The war was declared as a result of long simmering disputes with Great Britain. The central dispute surrounded the impressment of American soldiers by the British. The British had previously attacked the USS Chesapeake and nearly caused a war two years earlier. In addition, disputes continued with Great Britain over the Northwest Territories and the border with Canada. Finally, the attempts of Great Britain to impose a blockade on France during the Napoleonic Wars was a constant source of conflict with the United States.

What’s the second war you speak of?

Answer - another U.S. 'favoured' nation formed as a dictatorship by a former Triad assassin whose wife came from a family whose wealth was gained in the opium trade.

Cold war relic?

Answer to the rest - your sad diatribe reflects the rising far right sentiment in the U.S. that clearly indicates to me that the McCarthy era was just a rehearsal for the Fascism erupting down there.

Only someone that is far left makes that claim