Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democracy

[Jersay]

Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democracy??

I think through elections because as Hugo Chavez and others show if you present your ideals to the public you will win in elections. You can beat conservative theory through democratic debate.

In the 1960s, and the 1970s was the time for revolution.

 

[I think not]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

Neither. It should be "wiped off the map"

 

[Jay]

RE: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

Why would we want to achieve socialism? Why can't you guys mind your own business and leave us alone?

 

[Finder]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

I do not believe Socialism, or anything can be achieved threw violance.

Orthadox Marxists, Most Communists (not all), Maoists and Trotskists highly believe that socialism does not have to be achieved threw violance but argue that when the workers come to power it is not the workers who will fire the first round but always the capitalists trying to hold onto the means of production. In every good lie their is a grain of truth and their is a grain of truth in this marxist theory. However I believe in reason, advancement and progress threw democratic means and a share of capitalism and socialism at one time.

This is the problem with a Utopian theorist, right wing or left wing it is always all or nothing. You can't believe in both and if you do you are always on the other side in their minds, you are the enemy. A hard communist government would see me as a fascist, or back in the 1930's they used to call left wing democrats, "social fascists" anyhow, that was their wording. A fascist government or an extremely right wing one would see me as a communist. Basically I'm screwed if either extreme wereto ever gain power.

 

[cortezzz]

RE: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

socialism should be established --
but only as a transition
to
communism

by any means mecessary
including nukes


sorry --if that is too politically correct

 

[Jersay]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

Neither. It should be "wiped off the map"

You can never wipe socialism off the map. We are here to stay.

Why would we want to achieve socialism? Why can't you guys mind your own business and leave us alone?

Because if there is ineqquality between the rich and the poor and until equality is reached between the classes our job will never be complete.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

Depends what you mean by socialism. In the usual meaning, I don't think it should be achieved at all, it's not necessarily a logical step in the development of economic and political systems, it's just another way of organizing certain things and I suspect it's fundamentally contrary to human nature, at least in its extreme forms. I've no objection in principle to certain "socialist" institutions, like SaskPower and SaskTel here where I live, they're instruments of social policy that have done much good for the province. I'd also agree that unbridled capitalism is a bad thing, it needs to be regulated and monitored. I like Keynes' observation on that one (at least I think it was Keynes) who said something like this: "Capitalism is the pecular notion that the nastiest of men, for the nastiest of reasons, will somehow work for the good of us all."

But to whatever extent you want socialism to be achieved, it should be through democratic means, and it should maintain the democratic institutions that got it there.

 

[Finder]

Re: RE: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or d

socialism should be established --
but only as a transition
to
communism

by any means mecessary
including nukes


sorry --if that is too politically correct

Socialism is not in the hearts of communists, and marxists understand socialism even less then capitalists do.

 

[cortezzz]

RE: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

we will make them understand

 

[Finder]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

Cortezz you do relieze that usually social democrats and socialists side with capitalists before letting a communist revolution to take hold.

 

[the caracal kid]

RE: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

We need the real, nation-wide terror which reinvigorates the country and through which the Great French Revolution achieved glory.
Vladimir Lenin

When one makes a Revolution, one cannot mark time; one must always go forward - or go back. He who now talks about the "freedom of the press" goes backward, and halts our headlong course towards Socialism.
Vladimir Lenin

While the State exists there can be no freedom; when there is freedom there will be no State.
Vladimir Lenin

 

[Finder]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

the caracal kid, good quotes, but your last one was misquoted. That is taken to mean that in the final stage of communism the state/government/democracy/dictatorship will disappear, leaving everyone in a socialist Utopia because you no longer need government at all because everyone is equal... I know such things sends shivers down the spin of conservatives.... equility and all... But for me the persuite of Utopia only brings hell on earth.

 

[I think not]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

You can never wipe socialism off the map. We are here to stay.

Sadly this is true, ignoring you is a good first step. Eradicating the left wing extremists would be step two when they get out of control.

 

[cortezzz]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

Cortezz you do relieze that usually social democrats and socialists side with capitalists before letting a communist revolution to take hold.[/

quote]

stop trying to be rational
im trying to whip people up

 

[Finder]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

You can never wipe socialism off the map. We are here to stay.

Sadly this is true, ignoring you is a good first step. Eradicating the left wing extremists would be step two when they get out of control.

any talk of eliminating.... anybody is somewhat extreme in itself. As I feel Right wing extremeists should be controled.

 

[Finder]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

Cortezz you do relieze that usually social democrats and socialists side with capitalists before letting a communist revolution to take hold.[/

quote]

stop trying to be rational
im trying to whip people up

I'm a Deist man, I need to be rational. But keep whipping people, sooner or later you will discredit the entire left wing if that is your destiny.

 

[I think not]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

You can never wipe socialism off the map. We are here to stay.

Sadly this is true, ignoring you is a good first step. Eradicating the left wing extremists would be step two when they get out of control.

any talk of eliminating.... anybody is somewhat extreme in itself. As I feel Right wing extremeists should be controled.

I agree, this a pinko thread though, so expect answers to that effect.

 

[Finder]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

ITN
True, why ask a question when the conclusion has already been made and any argument will not disway your dession. I believe violance in the name of anything be it socialism, communism, liberalism or conservatism, is wrong. There is of course times when you must use some level of order to keep the magority of the society safe. Like Quebec during the FLQ crisses.

 

[I think not]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

I see communism as a threat to humanity in its present form, history has shown me humanity isn't ready for a "system of equality", too many power hungry people take advantage of the situation. When humanity evolves (not in my lifetime) to the point it will acknowledge all people are truly equal, then it might be the time. Till then, every single individual that espouses asphyxiating oppressive tyrannical ideologies, should be dealt with accordingly, peacefully preferably, violently if necessary.

Communism is a disease, it needs to be eradicated.

 

[Jay]

Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

Depends what you mean by socialism. In the usual meaning, I don't think it should be achieved at all, it's not necessarily a logical step in the development of economic and political systems, it's just another way of organizing certain things and I suspect it's fundamentally contrary to human nature, at least in its extreme forms. I've no objection in principle to certain "socialist" institutions, like SaskPower and SaskTel here where I live, they're instruments of social policy that have done much good for the province. I'd also agree that unbridled capitalism is a bad thing, it needs to be regulated and monitored. I like Keynes' observation on that one (at least I think it was Keynes) who said something like this: "Capitalism is the pecular notion that the nastiest of men, for the nastiest of reasons, will somehow work for the good of us all."

But to whatever extent you want socialism to be achieved, it should be through democratic means, and it should maintain the democratic institutions that got it there.

Great post Dex!