Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democracy

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

Communism is a disease, it needs to be eradicated.

I agree with most of what you said besides that. Communism is a dream and a noble dream at that if you chose to believe everything Karl Marx said, I don't. I don't thik Communists are evil though it seems that most communist leaders tend to have the same flaws as capitalist ones. Also the fact that Lenin in his revision of Communism made matters worse with making it possible to form a communist party. Indeed before Lenin, Marx had said that communists should work in workers movements, unions, socialist parties and social democratic parties to achieve the goals of communism. Lenin changed that by allowing the formation of pure communist parties. In doing so if you read Orwell and Trotsky this has lead the "Communist Party" to become what it destoryed. The capitalist or bourgeoisie. Indeed you do not have to look at the Soviet union to see this, as it can be proven by this alone. But today all you have to do is look at modern China and see the Communist party for what it is. In fact the bourgeoisie have been replaced by the communist party leadership and middle managment. Indeed the communist party members today of any considerable rank enjoy the luxuries of the bourgeoisie class and reap the profits from the means of production and to some extents now it has come full circle with the incorperation of the capitalist econmey and privitization of indestries with communist leaders being the first allowed to buy or own these companies.

To this level it has gotten worse for the chiness worker. Leninism has made the worker who was supposed to own the means of production a virtual slave of the indestry to those of the communist party who control and sometimes privately own the means of production. Communism, socialism, even marxism truly doesn't exist in China, but the fruits of Leninism have encircled the working class in conditions which are worse then that of capitalism in the middle of the indestrial revultion when Marx and Englas wrote the menifesto which changed the world.

In deed a Marxist, even a Marxist Leninist could point out that workers are slaves to the wage and the difference between the rich and the poor in our nations and the level of explotation in American and even Canada. But the level of explotation in China and before that the Soviet Union was staggering. Workers were no more then slaves to their communist masters.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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Re: RE: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or d

cortezzz said:
sorry --if that is too politically correct

 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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RE: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

indeed finder,

the success of the "elite" of the capitalist world was that it created the willing slave compared to the enforced slave of communism.

We can watch in amusement as the defenders of capitalism stand guard for their masters claiming some level of freedom when all they have is enslavement sold as snakeoil.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

The truth is workers are more free in democratic capitalist nations then those of the old communist nations like China, Soviet Union, Vietnam and The Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea. But while I say this I think both highly social Liberal, democratic socialist and social democratic nations like Canada, Sweden and so on workers have a lot more rights and both capitalism and socialism are praticed to certain extents.
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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Re: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

opps left a frag senatance in my first post their. Lenin, charged that a workers/communist party should be made, to be the vanguard of the working class. But as I stated this workers vanguard became what it was ment to replace by the supposed facade of leading the working class to achieve the revultion. Marx had no conceptions of such a party. He said the revultion would be a sort of microcossom, which would automatically happen at one level of capitalism. Lenin by-passed this idea and by-pass it with force as Russia was only barely entering the indestiral age at that time and capitalism was at it's infancy.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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RE: Should socialism be achieved through revolution or democ

free to enslave themselves.

that is the point, freedom not exercised because of clever mechanisms that cause the worker to submit. Many of the great "socialist" ideals seen in capitalistic societies were born out of a desire to keep the workers working and obedient.