Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Leaves?

Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Leaves?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Canada is Not "Broken"

:arrow: Canada is Not a Broken Nation

I would vehemently oppose the assertion that Canada is "broken." It has some domestic issues going on, as does any other nation of its type on Earth. I would submit that Canada is quite operative as it is, but that it could certainly use improvement in various areas; perhaps one could say that Canada, rather than being broken, has some glitches that need to be "tweaked" in order to improve the performance of the nation as a whole.

Québec is a Province of Canada, and Quebeckers are subjects of the Crown¹, as are citizens of each and every other Province, and of the three Territories. There is a place for Québec in Canada as a strong voice, and as a strong Province, hosting much of the nation's population. It is an important Province for the economy of Canada, and for our culture; Québec is an important part of our heritage, as Québec is more than anything else Canadian. Even if recognized as being "distinct" in one or more ways, what Province in Canada wouldn't assert the very same?

:arrow: "Canada is in a Stronger Position?"

I would think that Canada and Québec, in terms of the sovereigntist issue, are no stronger than the other. If the Legislature of the Province of Québec passes a referendum on the issue of separation, then the Government of Canada knows, clearly, where the current population of the Province stands.

Such a referendum, however, is not binding — the House of Commons, the Senate, the Governor General, the Legislatures of the Provinces and, depending in the situation, perhaps even the Queen of Canada, have a role to play whenever such a "showdown" occurs.

The debate would likely be heated — as it should. We would be talking about removing one of the founding Provinces from this great Confederation (yes, I know that some would disagree with the assertion that this Confederation is "great," but this is my whole-hearted opinion). If the House of Commons should consent to the separation, then the debate in the Senate should be no less vigorous.

If this event were to politicize the Office of the Governor General, or to pull the Queen of Canada into the affairs of the Ministry, then so be it — such an issue would, in my opinion, warrant the involvement of our Head of State. This would, after all, be the biggest crisis in the history of Canada. Every resource at our disposal should be exhausted in attempting to convince the citizens of Québec that their place in this world is, and should be, as a Province of Canada.

:arrow: The Showdown

When push comes to shove, and Quebeckers are determined to become a sovereign nation even after exhaustive debate and discussion, then what are we to do? Is the Government going to force Québec to continue to sit as a Province of Canada, against the wishes of its people? Or would we, ourselves, feel bound to the people of Québec, to respect the decision they make on the matter, and to consent to such a separation notwithstanding our subjective opposition?

Are we going to risk an American-style "declaration of independence," where we could irrepairably damage the relationship between Québec and the rest of Canada? If Québec should separate, are we going to foster some sort of partnership on the world stage?

I ask what would become of both a Canada ... and a Québec ... ?

:?: Footnote
¹ By Crown, I refer to the three components of Parliament.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
Re: RE: Should Canada Pay the

bumbo said:
Personal feelings aside as Chris mentioend, it is unlawful for Canada to withold the pension monies when the individuals involved within this pension "Contract" signed prior to seperation. Furthermore this very argument is one of the main reasons that Quebec will never seperate, I doubt very highly if we'll ever see the day when this comes to pass.

I hope you are correct with your last statement.

First, governments can change contracts, especially if the terms are eggregious.

Second, what you are saying is that pensions should be paid because they are legal obligations of the government of Canada. Well, so is the federal debt. Does that mean that if Quebec separates, Quebec would assume no debt from the government of Canada? If Quebec does assume a share of the liabilities of the federal government of Canada, why can it not assume the pension liabilities of the MPs? After all, Quebeca's portion of the federal debt is something like $100-$125 billion. Surely it can assume the $50 million in pension liabilities as well.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
48
RE: Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Lea

If Bloc MPs have their pensions paid by their constituents, then are these taxpayers also obligated to support other MP's pensions as well? In effect, these kinds of arguments are the same as those made by separtists.

Some of you obviously don't understand why many Quebecois feel the way they do. I know people who voted in favor of Quebec independance. According to them, until the 1960's English people ran Quebec like an old boys network. Speaking English wasn't good enough to get in. You had to be English.

As recently as the 1960's, Francophones working in the Federal goverment in Quebec could be officially reprimanded because they spoke French during a coffee break. Most managers in the civil service were unilingual English and their rule was 100% English all the time in the workplace.

Before the 60's if you wanted to go to university and become an Engineer or get your BA, you had to read, write and speak English fluently. Parle francais seulement? Go back to your place on the farm.

Before the PQ had power, French was dissappearing so quickly in Quebec, French grandparents couldn'y talk to their unilingual English grandchildren.

I know French Canadians who have experienced anti-French sentiments while travelling outside Quebec. Most French Canadians say they only feel welcome inside Quebec. As soon as they step outside they continuously have to deal with hostile anti-French Anglophones.

It will take time before these old wounds heal. Some of the posters in this string are the reason why many Quebecois feel the way they do. Your attitudes justify their attitudes and vice versa.

But I doubt Quebec will separate. Most of the above grievances have ben addressed and then some. Sure the Bloc will do well in the next election, since most Quebecers have a choice between a rabid separatist or a corrupt Liberal. Even I would vote for the separtist.

I sincerely doubt Quebec will separate because most English and French Canadians live up to their international reputation for being polite, kind, hospitable and generous. We are stronger together than we are apart. English Canada needs French Canada and vice versa. Reason will prevail over passion.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
RE: Should Canada Pay the

I was once told by a teacher in high school that French was banned in Saskatchewan for one year, in something like 1912, for one year. I have no idea if that's true or not.

I have no problem with decentralization and "distinct society". But you're in the country or you are not.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
RE: Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Lea

"Reason will prevail over passion."

it has not yet.

"I have no problem with decentralization and "distinct society". But you're in the country or you are not."

i agree with decentralization. As to whether one is in the country or not, well, there are those that are in the country but are not a part of it anyway, so indeed you can be both in and out at once!
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
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Re: Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Lea

Mike wrote:
Quebekers are Canadian, and they deserve a voice in Canadian politics. If we try to limit what that voice says, there will be blowback in one form or another.

Yes, of course they deserve a voice. I guess this situation is symptomatic of having politicians who can't see past the end of their noses. The Blok should have been refused federal party status from the very first. That the Bloc are dishonest goes without saying. They do pledge allegiance to the queen and her heirs so they are caught in a lie. How can one honestly pledge allegiance to Canada's head of state and then plot the destruction of the country? In any other country, this would be called treason. I wouldn't pay them a nickle. What would be the point?
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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RE: Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Lea

and yet, juan, the alternative is UDI and potential civil war.

Perhaps canadians are too much of the wussy crowd.

How does one take a stand within the system for one's desired outcome, which they are honest about, without agreeing to the rules of said system? I would like to know how such a conundrum is solved.

They are not plotting the destruction of the country, but the formation of a better country. Whether or not the rest of canada can become a better country without quebec is the ROC's problem. You make it sound like a giant guilt trip: "you can't leave us after all we have done for you". Sorry, that does not work. If quebec has grown to the point were it is ready to go it alone, it is not the ROC's place to stand in its way (the same goes for any province seeking to leave).
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
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Re: Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Lea

They are not plotting the destruction of the country, but the formation of a better country. Whether or not the rest of canada can become a better country without quebec is the ROC's problem. You make it sound like a giant guilt trip: "you can't leave us after all we have done for you". Sorry, that does not work. If quebec has grown to the point were it is ready to go it alone, it is not the ROC's place to stand in its way (the same goes for any province seeking to leave).

I think Canada is worth saving. I think Quebec wants to leave with a hell of a lot more than she came with. The federal money that has been poured into Quebec for years has been a scandal in it's self. I say they can leave but only with the land they came with. I want a Canadian corridor through to the Maritimes. The indigenous people of the First Nations should not be forced to join. Indeed, No Quebecor should be forced to join. Forget the pensions. I make my feelings clear. So do you.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
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www.kdm.ca
RE: Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Lea

I agree, first nations should not be forced to join. Then again, first nations should not have been forced into what they have now.

Canada is worth another attempt at nation building. Unfortunately, the backwards ways of canadians dictates it is going to take a rather major upheaval, of the kind like separation, to start the reconstruction of canada from the ground up. The current canada is like something that has been held together with duct-tape. It is time to just replace the processes and the system with something progressive. "True democracy", no monarchy, equality of the provinces/territories, decentralized federalism, social consciousness, a new economy, ect.

Either that or scrap the experiment as a failure.
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
RE: Should Canada Pay the

"A new economy"

Let's have more free enterprise, I say.

It'd be interesting to see if an independent Quebec would believe so. I think not. I think Quebec would try to emulate France, which has lead to stagnant growth and 10% unemployment.

The other thing about the separatists is that they often talk about the US economy as a place to sell, which is true to some extent. However, Quebec has a long history of pacifism and not wanting to fight overseas. That doesn't fly well in the US. If Quebec wants to be a part of the global economy, its going to have to pay a price, one that it has been reluctant to pay in the past.

Finally, Quebec is viable on its own, but it will be a bit poorer, and, of course, pretty irrelevent in the world. It will have an economy smaller than Belgium's and have a debt to GDP ratio higher than Canada or the US.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
53
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RE: Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Lea

Its possible that the queen of Canada could be the head of a sovereign Quebec. Unlikely, but possible.

Quebec has contributed to the Canada's nation building process and I for one am glad they are part of Canada. If it wasn't for Quebec's influence, I'm sure Canada would be a puppet state of the United States and Canadian soldiers would be fighting for oil in Iraq along with Americans.

Perhaps the best reason for keeping Quebec in Canada is because they know how to party. I suggest taking in the Montreal Jazz festival any night after midnight. Its hotter and more decadent than Mardi Gras. I've seen things at this annual wild street party that would only be seen in a zoo outside of Quebec! In comparison, Anglophones are pretty uptight. Yes we need our Francophone brothers and sister to keep the rest of Canada loose.

I for one am glad Quebec is still part of Canada.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
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Independent Palestine
Re: Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Lea

Agreed. But, I am sorry I think it was FiveParadox who stated it I can't see any way Quebec can get out of Canada without I am sorry to say it, war.

Let's look at it.

They have referendum. It is accepted. However, it has to be approved by the House of Commons, the Senate, the provinces, the GG and maybe even the Queen.

Therefore, unilaterial declaration of independence. Which has never been acknowledged by the world community for other nations who declare unilateral independence.

Army goes in and war starts.

On a more positive note, French-Canadian standing has risen in Canada since the 1960s. So I believe this debate about seperation has nothing to do with culture or language anymore.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
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RE: Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Lea

war?

as much as i am opposed to war, perhaps a civil war would give canada the kick in the pants necessary to move forward.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
Re: Should Canada Pay the Pensions of Bloc MPs if Quebec Lea

You never know, just look at the American Civil War.

Similar too, the south wanted to seperate, keep their slaves and culture. Had the same kind of power and strength as the North which resulted in a five year slaughter.

You never know.