Should Canada indict Bush?

[Reverend Blair]

What about relations with the US? Economic relations? The fact that we are talking about the president of one of the most powerful nations in the world, a nation which happens to be your neighbor?

Canada is the only country in the world that could even hope to get away with this. The United States needs us as much, probably more, than we need them. In addition to that we have a long history of multi-lateral relationships that would cause and require others to come to our aid should we be threatened.

I'm not saying that it would be easy or that wouldn't be repercussions, just that those repercussions are worth the risk.

this is a moot thread, anyway - bush will have diplomatic immunity on his visit, will he not?

It is and isn't moot. Bush has diplomatic immunity on this official visit but he does not have diplomatic immunity should he come here on one of his fishing trips. We can also cancel that diplomatic immunity for future official visits as long as fair warning is given. That can be done for Bush and for other members of his government.

This visit is the perfect opportunity to break the news to him.

 

[Paco]

What about relations with the US? Economic relations? The fact that we are talking about the president of one of the most powerful nations in the world, a nation which happens to be your neighbor?

Canada is the only country in the world that could even hope to get away with this. The United States needs us as much, probably more, than we need them. In addition to that we have a long history of multi-lateral relationships that would cause and require others to come to our aid should we be threatened.

***deleted personal attack and obscenity****

I know what your problem is now. It's hockey. Rather the lack of it. Y'all just don't know what to do with yourselves do ya?

The fact of the matter is that Canada relies on the United States, and has for years. Economically, Canada would not exist without the United States. We have also provided and paid for a large portion of your national security for years.

Canada always fall back into line....because they have to. Militarily, you stand no chance. Even if you bring all your friends. Without the United States, Canada is nothing. And you know it.

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Without the United States, Canada is nothing. And you know it.

Arrogant and mindless comments like that simply prove just how far the US has fallen, and how close to the edge it teeters. It is a 'running scared' comment, but that is not surprising, coming from a country of the most frightened citizens as you'll find anywhere... just a tiny example, in the news, 'Americans panic because of the 'flu vaccine shortage'. If they panic over little things like that, no wonder they feel the need to lash out.

 

[Reverend Blair]

I know what your problem is now.

You haven't got a clue, Paco.

It's hockey. Rather the lack of it. Y'all just don't know what to do with yourselves do ya?

If you did have a clue you'd realise that ***gasp*** not all Canadians are hockey fans.

The fact of the matter is that Canada relies on the United States, and has for years.

The fact of the matter is that the US is at least as reliant on Canada as we are on them.

Economically, Canada would not exist without the United States.

Not true.

We have also provided and paid for a large portion of your national security for years.

Really? I don't recall seeing the cheque.

Canada always fall back into line....because they have to.

No, actually we don't have to.

Militarily, you stand no chance. Even if you bring all your friends.

Without Canada's resources you don't have a military, Paco. You also don't have any industry and won't be able to feed yourselves.

Without the United States, Canada is nothing.

Bullsh*t.

And you know it.

Actually a growing number of us know just exactly the opposite.

 

[Martin Le Acadien]

What about relations with the US? Economic relations? The fact that we are talking about the president of one of the most powerful nations in the world, a nation which happens to be your neighbor?

Canada is the only country in the world that could even hope to get away with this. The United States needs us as much, probably more, than we need them. In addition to that we have a long history of multi-lateral relationships that would cause and require others to come to our aid should we be threatened.

I'm not saying that it would be easy or that wouldn't be repercussions, just that those repercussions are worth the risk.

this is a moot thread, anyway - bush will have diplomatic immunity on his visit, will he not?

It is and isn't moot. Bush has diplomatic immunity on this official visit but he does not have diplomatic immunity should he come here on one of his fishing trips. We can also cancel that diplomatic immunity for future official visits as long as fair warning is given. That can be done for Bush and for other members of his government.

This visit is the perfect opportunity to break the news to him.

Rev,
multi lateral agreements are useless! You would have been a teenager, do you remember the Falklands War? The US and Canada were wringing their hands hoping the clauses of the various agreements would not be called upon.

The Argentines wanted to invoke the Monroe Doctrine and Organization of American States Defence Treaty and ask the US for help in repelling the British Attach! The US did not want to help the Argentines who were clearly the aggressors and were scared if the British faiied in the attempt to retake the Falklands, the US might have to get involved under the NATO Treaty!

Military planners call this a no win situation since it would have forced us to pick sides. I still have my suspecisions that the old USSR was behinfd the whole thing to start a hot war and divide the European and American (Hemisphere) powers into camps and give an excuse to Start WW #3. Thank God, Maggie Thatcher got back her little islands, the War ended and that was it.

As far as grabbing Mr. Bush, you evidently have never been into a bar fight! Usually when a little guy tries to hit the bouncer, no one comes to the little drunk's aid! i could envision Canada with this US ex-Pres, with a full diplomatic hubris and learning these lessons quite quickly:

1. The Affront to American Pride would bring forth:

A. The rest of the world would whistle while Canada Burns.
B. Say I told you so! (i =other countries)
C. Say way to go Canada while giving lip service.

2. Diplomatic Lawyers would make a fortune. "Please pay us in Gold since the Looney will soon be worthless."

3. The US invades and annexes Canada and makes it part of Texas! Quebec is alllowed to form its own country!

4. Mr. Bush is released and Ross Perot is named Governor of Canada.

 

[Martin Le Acadien]

Without the United States, Canada is nothing. And you know it.

Arrogant and mindless comments like that simply prove just how far the US has fallen, and how close to the edge it teeters. It is a 'running scared' comment, but that is not surprising, coming from a country of the most frightened citizens as you'll find anywhere... just a tiny example, in the news, 'Americans panic because of the 'flu vaccine shortage'. If they panic over little things like that, no wonder they feel the need to lash out.

The US isn't on the edge, just 300 million jumpy characters down here with itchy trigger fingers. I hope Paul Martin asked for the Keys to the Nukes, adult supervision might not be a bad thing right about now. :lol:

You want to see "panic", just announce a toiet paper shortage! 8O

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

The US isn't on the edge, just 300 million jumpy characters down here with itchy trigger fingers. I hope Paul Martin asked for the Keys to the Nukes, adult supervision might not be a bad thing right about now. :lol:

You want to see "panic", just announce a toiet paper shortage! 8O

Thanks for the good chuckle!

 

[Reverend Blair]

multi lateral agreements are useless! You would have been a teenager, do you remember the Falklands War?

Yes I do. The Falklands is not Canada though, and enforcing laws is not aggression. The US is also not Maggie Thatcher's Britain. Do not make the mistake of underestimating how poorly thought of the US and George Bush are thought of around the world right now...including in the United States.

As far as grabbing Mr. Bush, you evidently have never been into a bar fight!

Oh, I've been in a couple. The US isn't the bouncer in this case though, Martin. The world is the bouncer. It is still a much bigger place than the United States.

The simple fact is that the Commonwealth would have to come to our aid by law. Same with le francophonie. China would likely side with us because of our resources. South America would likely side with us because of their history (check out their leaders...they'd side with us for the pure joy of it). Most of Africa would side with us because we have sided with them in the past and because they want our technology. China would side with us because of our resources (there's a major blow to the US economy). Japan would choose our resources too. Most of Asia would back us. So would the Middle East. So would Europe. So would a good number of Americans who are calling for George Bush to be impeached and tried for treason and/or war crimes.

There are two reasons why George Bush came to Canada yesterday Martin. One is that he wanted to try to jam his missile plan down our throats. The other is that he is trying to build legitimacy on the world stage...something he does not presently have.

If we would have threatened to arrest him before he got here, he could have done neither. Instead he put the pressure on both our Prime Minister and the Official Leader of the Opposition to accept his insane plans and they folded completely.

 

[Martin Le Acadien]

multi lateral agreements are useless! You would have been a teenager, do you remember the Falklands War?

Yes I do. The Falklands is not Canada though, and enforcing laws is not aggression. The US is also not Maggie Thatcher's Britain. Do not make the mistake of underestimating how poorly thought of the US and George Bush are thought of around the world right now...including in the United States.

As far as grabbing Mr. Bush, you evidently have never been into a bar fight!

Oh, I've been in a couple. The US isn't the bouncer in this case though, Martin. The world is the bouncer. It is still a much bigger place than the United States.

The simple fact is that the Commonwealth would have to come to our aid by law. Same with le francophonie. China would likely side with us because of our resources. South America would likely side with us because of their history (check out their leaders...they'd side with us for the pure joy of it). Most of Africa would side with us because we have sided with them in the past and because they want our technology. China would side with us because of our resources (there's a major blow to the US economy). Japan would choose our resources too. Most of Asia would back us. So would the Middle East. So would Europe. So would a good number of Americans who are calling for George Bush to be impeached and tried for treason and/or war crimes.

There are two reasons why George Bush came to Canada yesterday Martin. One is that he wanted to try to jam his missile plan down our throats. The other is that he is trying to build legitimacy on the world stage...something he does not presently have.

If we would have threatened to arrest him before he got here, he could have done neither. Instead he put the pressure on both our Prime Minister and the Official Leader of the Opposition to accept his insane plans and they folded completely.

You're missing the big picture here, George will never get arrested, you believe the Commonswealth would come to your aid and you seem to think the US could be defeated in three easy steps. The US Stategic Reserve has 120 days of oil in storage, so how long do you figure that the Canadian Army would last once the rail link is servered and the Militias are turned loose to head North! I think the Albertans would turn and join the US laughing while Sask. Wheat Pool Rail cars are being emptied into the graneries of North America.

China has a brown water Navy and there are more subs in the Edmonton, Alberta mall than in the Canadian Navy!

If push came to shove, the world just gives lip service, The US really doesn't care about how the world sees it, The US will respond and since the US is the only true superpower left from the Cold War, the has beens and wannabees of Russia has problems caused by the failure of its socialist system, China has a smaller army than Vietnam which is keeping Malysia and Indonesia nervous. (Commonwealth country, you may get a call).

Most world leaders have a JANUS COMPLEX, they denounce the US for the Iraq war and under their breath are glad Saddam is gone, where is Saddam's allies?

ANSWER-HE DID NOT HAVE ANY.

The money dogs of Wall Street Rule, the Gnomes of Zurich have power and Sheiks will keep selling their oil. So how does America get defeated? pray do tell.

 

[TenPenny]

Where are Saddams Allies?

Well, Reagan is dead, and let's see... Rumsfeld is....where is he again? I forget.....

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Should Canada indict

I do believe that Martin. Five years ago I would not have, but the world has changed a lot since Bush came to power. Most of that change is because he started a war for oil...basically fired the starters pistol in the race for the rest of the world's resources. The United States is not the only country eyeing Canada's resources.

The other thing that Bush has done is weakened your country...likely fatally as far as superpower status goes. It no longer has the economic clout of even a few years ago and is very dependent on the rest of the world.

You are still missing the point of this whole exercise though. That point is that we should be making it very clear to Bush that we do not want him in our country, to the point of threatening an international incident should he decide to come anyway.

What's he going to do, cut off trade? Sorry, not an option. Bush needs us. If our leaders had any spine, they'd quickly realize that Canada is in the driver's seat there.

Invade? Nope. The world might tolerate that in your scenario, but I doubt they wold tolerate it even then. If we were just telling him to stay away or be arrested they would not tolerate it at all.

So the point of this exercise is that Canada is not playing hardball with the US. They try to use trade to influence, actually dictate, our foreign and domestic policies. We need to do the same to them and the world will back us up if we do.

Nobody thinks that George Bush will ever be arrested...time will tell on that, they used to say the same about Pinochet...but for now we don't have to arrest him, just make it clear that if he comes here we will.

That leaves us in the clear to start turning the screws...making George obey the laws for the rest of his term. The world will back us in that too.

 

[Martin Le Acadien]

Re: RE: Should Canada indict

I do believe that Martin. Five years ago I would not have, but the world has changed a lot since Bush came to power. Most of that change is because he started a war for oil...basically fired the starters pistol in the race for the rest of the world's resources. The United States is not the only country eyeing Canada's resources. .

I worked overseas in Africa, the world changed on 9/11 for a lot of us here, A sleeping giant was awoken.

As far as Canada's concerned, the world looks at her with envy, but is those eyeing her resources should be kept at an arm's length, yes includiing the US!

The other thing that Bush has done is weakened your country...likely fatally as far as superpower status goes. It no longer has the economic clout of even a few years ago and is very dependent on the rest of the world. .

The same thing happened during the Carter years, it seemed the US doomed and then the USSR went out of business after Reagan spent it down in an arms race. Lots of money wasted. The economic clout is still there, our spending hasn't slowed and the consumers are still buying. China has replaced Mexico as the source of the cheap industrial goods and yes, they hold a lot of the US balance of Trade, but what can they do with it? Spend it here on what? China is the leading buyer of oil now and they buy every drop they can get, their industrial complex is fuel hungary!

You are still missing the point of this whole exercise though. That point is that we should be making it very clear to Bush that we do not want him in our country, to the point of threatening an international incident should he decide to come anyway.

Who is "WE" it seems that he was invited by protocol to Ottawa to visit with Paul Martin. You better bet that he was asked for and agendas agreed upon before he came. Speaking of International Incidents, there was one here in South Louisiana where the British Consular Officer was detained about 25 yrs ago by a deputy sheriff who reminded the BCO about the how badly the Acadiens were treated by the British. Needless to say, diplomatic immunity was the new subject of the day in Police School. Even now, I don't recommend for British or Anglo Canadians to bring up the subject of the Deportation, I was working on an oil production module for a platform from Nova Scotia here in Houma, Louisiana when an Anglo-Scottish Canadian said something about how the Cajuns ended up in Louisiana, needless to say, the attention he attracted wasn't the right kind and I was lucky to be there to head off any trouble. The next day at the shipyard in my office, I had a heart to heart talk about tact and diplomacy.

What's he going to do, cut off trade? Sorry, not an option. Bush needs us. If our leaders had any spine, they'd quickly realize that Canada is in the driver's seat there.

Invade? Nope. The world might tolerate that in your scenario, but I doubt they wold tolerate it even then. If we were just telling him to stay away or be arrested they would not tolerate it at all.

So the point of this exercise is that Canada is not playing hardball with the US. They try to use trade to influence, actually dictate, our foreign and domestic policies. We need to do the same to them and the world will back us up if we do.

The world tolerates a lot of sh*t, look at Darfur! Trade hardball is a game of one up mans ship where you have to be ready to back up the bluff, the economic reality is that money always talks and Bullsh*t walks. Sorry but the basic principals of capitalism drive the world and human nature and I don't look for any change soon. On this side of the line, we hear how the US needs to sign Kyoto, ICJ and fall in line but it is hard to get the electorate to buy in so the same old bunch keeps getting elected!

Nobody thinks that George Bush will ever be arrested...time will tell on that, they used to say the same about Pinochet...but for now we don't have to arrest him, just make it clear that if he comes here we will. .

As you say about Britian, Pinochet and Bush are like comparing apples and oranges, Bush was elected (this time fair and square) and Pinochet was a dictator from a Military Junta (CIA driven however). Time will tell if the invasion of Iraq was a crime or if the world's better off with Saddam gone!

That leaves us in the clear to start turning the screws...making George obey the laws for the rest of his term. The world will back us in that too.

Sadly, I know how you feel about capitalism, but the world backs whoever is paying the bills and has money in its bag! Sadly, money runs the world and ideals take a back seat! Principals and Ethics are hard lessons to teach to a hungary wolf.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Should Canada indict

I don't think you realize how much economic trouble your country is really in, Martin. European economists have been comparing you unfavourably with South American states that are wards of the World Bank. They are starting to sound the alarm bells.

I don't think you fully realize how angry the world is at the US either...not just over Iraq, but over a host of things ranging from the landmine treaty to Kyoto to AIDS to GM crops to the war on drugs. That makes it very difficult for even sympathetic foreign leaders to deal with the US because their people really don't like it.

We gave George Bush two dates when he could come here...this one and another in January. Everybody thought he'd take the later one, but he chose this one. He did that, at least in part, so that the protestors would have less time to organize.

A week before the visit it was suddenly announced that day two would be in Halifax. Do ya think that George really wanted to say thanks three years later? Probably not, it buggered up those protestors though.

The real purpose for this visit was to soften up Europe before Bush goes there. Fewer protestors on the news looks like Canadians have accepted this guy.

That's all being done because Bush knows that he's hated and he knows how weak his position is.

Now was the time to say no to this man...to his wars and his weapons and his rogue nation foreign policy. It was the time for Canada to step up and make demands. If Bush refused to meet those demands then, "Sorry buddy, come here and we'll bust you for war crimes...probably best if stayed home."

The world would have backed us on that. It would have set a lead they could follow and would have impressed the hell out of other middle powers. Instead Martin folded up like a house of cards.

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

Canadian authorities arrest US president George W. Bush
By Paul K. J.
November 30, 2004

Canadian authorities have arrested US president George W. Bush in Ottawa.

He has been charged with several offences under Canada's War Crimes Act.

Vice-President Dick Cheney has mobilized the American military and all border crossings between the two nations have closed. Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin has urged for calm in a short radio and television broadcast to the Canadian people immediately after the arrest. Part of the Prime Minister’s broadcast is included here:

“This decision was not made lightly. But, it was also a decision that was impossible not to make. The United States is not outside the rule of law, and cannot expect to get an unlimited “free pass”. This decision puts a grave strain upon both our nations, and I urge calm and restraint from our American neighbours, as well as from Canadians. I have met with the cabinet, and with our colleagues in the House. This is a time of great crisis for us as a nation. But as people, we will survive this test. Earlier I enacted the Emergency War Powers Act. This is necessary to guarantee our domestic security. This is not a time for panic, for lawlessness, for anything other than a responsible and sobre focus on what lies immediately ahead.”

Prime Minister Martin also said, “President Bush has been arrested under the Canadian War Crimes Act and the charges against him are being processed. He is being treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention and he will be treated fairly.”

Reports from the White House say there is absolute chaos as frantic phone calls and meetings are held to deal with this crisis.

Speculations on the American response run the spectrum from one analyst’s prediction of an all out American invasion of Canada to a more restrained pin-point rescue mission of the President. Whatever course of action is decided upon all experts are in agreement that the war in Iraq has so weakened the American military that it could be some days before the United States is ready to field a large scale military response.

Meanwhile, in New York, the Secretary General of the United Nations Kofi Anan has urged for calm, and British Prime Minister Tony Blair has been in almost constant contact with NATO leaders and President Putin of Russia.

A Britney Spears concert which had been scheduled to occur this evening in Ottawa has been postponed. A spokesman for the entertainer said that Ms. Spears was concerned for the President's wife and two daughters. The spokesman also said that Ms. Spears would be praying for the president.

President Bush had been due to attend an Ottawa luncheon when the arrest occurred. Witnesses at the scene said that utter havoc erupted as the arrest was carried out.

Earlier in the day things seemed to be going smoothly on this first visit to Canada by President Bush. The President’s private jet, Air Force One had landed at the Ottawa International airport amidst intense security. Only a few protestors were on hand at the airport to welcome the President.

Authorities had been expecting moderately sized protests in downtown Ottawa, but the fine weather and unseasonably warm temperature brought an estimated three hundred thousand demonstrators out on to the streets.

From the airport the President’s motorcade drove directly to the Ottawa Convention Centre.

The moment that President Bush stepped from his limousine a group of RCMP officers, who had been standing guard, grabbed the President and proceeded to place him under arrest. A gunfight broke out with the President’s secret service bodyguard. In the short exchange of gunfire two bystanders were killed and another three slightly wounded by flying debris. The RCMP were able to quickly subdue the American agents, and they have been detained in a separate facility. Separate fire arms related charges are pending.

According to Canadian Justice Department officials the President faces a lengthy list of offences.

Canada’s War Crimes Act was designed to hold foreigners accountable for their complicity or involvement in a vast array of war crimes.

George Bush is being charged not only as the civilian head of government of the United States, but also as the commander in chief of the United States Armed Forces. This position could bring with it even more serious consequences, but he will not face the death penalty.

Under both Canadian and International War Crimes law George Bush is being charged with genocide, torture, murder, and the most strong of all war crimes, the crime of war of aggression.

The United Nations position on the illegality of the Iraq invasion has been known for sometime, but sceptics believed that the UN would fail to be able to bring America to account.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7390.htm

 

[Scape]

Do you think they were goading for it?

 

[Paranoid Dot Calm]

Hi! Scape

Nice meeting you.

I'm lovin' it!
I find these kind of stories so amusing. I'm not offended at all when I read them.

It sure beats reading about dead Iraqi's, eh?

Calm

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Should Canada indict

Coulter is an idiot, Scape. Tucker Carlson is a pompous little boy. I wouldn;t worry about them too much...they both have a long history of not getting the facts right.

Good story, Calm.

 

[Just the Facts]

American's like to harp on about the whole defense thing, how we'd be taken over by Iceland if it wasn't for the U.S. What they ignore is that that's how they want us. If Canada mobilized on serious military buildup, the U.S. would do everything they could to convince us that we don't need to, they'll protect us. They like us not being a threat, then they slam us for it.

We need to remind them, and ourselves even moreso, that we SCRAPPED a fighter in the 1950's that would only recently have been obsoleted by the American made equivalent. I wonder what led to that....hmmm. :?:

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Should Canada indict

They'll learn eventually, Facts. The churlishness of the right in the US has repercussions.

I was just reading on another board how great it was that Bush was extremely rude to Jean Chretien at supper the other night. Funny...Georgie has to go and beg forgiveness and ask Chirac for help soon. It's on his itinerary. Do you think for a second that Jean's good friend Jacques won't be aware of how his good friend was treated?

The truth is that Chretien was well-regarded by all of those that Bush now has to go to, hat in hand. His actions will have repercussions and he's not enough of a statesman to realize that.

 

[moghrabi]

RE: Should Canada indict

On November 30, as President Bush visited Canada to meet with Canadian Prime Minister Paul Martin in an effort to improve the two countries' strained relations, right-wing pundit Ann Coulter and CNN Crossfire co-host Tucker Carlson ridiculed the United States' northern neighbor. On FOX News Channel's Hannity & Colmes, Coulter said that Canadians "better hope the United States doesn't roll over one night and crush them. They are lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent." On CNN's Wolf Blitzer Reports, Carlson stated: "Without the U.S., Canada is essentially Honduras, but colder and much less interesting"; he went on to say that instead of following politics, "the average Canadian is busy dogsledding." And on Crossfire, Carlson referred to the "limpid, flaccid nature of Canadian society.

Sick