Should an accused violator of immigration law be allowed an inquisitorial process?

Should an accused be allowed to opt for an inquisitorial process?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 2 66.7%
  • No.

    Votes: 1 33.3%
  • Other answer.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    3

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
What the hell does this statement have to do with some foreigner costing Canadian taxpayers money?

She's not costing Canadian taxpayers money. The CBSA is costing taxpayers money. Had the CBSA not appealed, she wouldn't even be in Canada right now! How can you blame a foreign national for the actions of a stupid CBSA officer who doesn't know how to do his job or a stupid Minister's counsel who doesn't realise that his appeal is a lost cause? Why don't they just give up and let her go home instead of dragging this out and out and out at taxpayer expense because they don't want her to go home of her own free will, because they want to buy her flight ticket for her.

Hell, they even legally obligated her to fly back to Canada for the appeal that they made. It wasn't even her who wanted to return to Canada! If they wanted her out of Canada, why force her return to Canada?! Are they that stupid?!
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
She's not costing Canadian taxpayers money. The CBSA is costing taxpayers money. Had the CBSA not appealed, she wouldn't even be in Canada right now! How can you blame a foreign national for the actions of a stupid CBSA officer who doesn't know how to do his job or a stupid Minister's counsel who doesn't realise that his appeal is a lost cause? Why don't they just give up and let her go home instead of dragging this out and out and out at taxpayer expense because they don't want her to go home of her own free will, because they want to buy her flight ticket for her.

Hell, they even legally obligated her to fly back to Canada for the appeal that they made. It wasn't even her who wanted to return to Canada! If they wanted her out of Canada, why force her return to Canada?! Are they that stupid?!


She didn't have to fly back, that was her choice.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
She didn't have to fly back, that was her choice.

So you think that when a foreign national is legally obligated to attend an appeal, he should just snub Canadian law and not show up? Make up your mind man, should foreigners respect Canadian law or not? Now you're encouraging foreign nationals to snub Canada's immigration tribunals.

And the CBSA didn't have to appeal. That was its choice. And the police and CBSA officers also had the choice to not include false statements in their reports. That's what started it all. Perhaps we should hand them the bill for all the costs. I'm not accusing them of lying, I don't know if it was intentional. But at the same time, do we blame a foreign national for a government officer's functional illiteracy? And that's assuming the false statements weren't in fact intentional flat out lies.

But I agree with you. If people learnt how incompetent our officers are, it would be embarrassing for Canada. The best solution is to do like Iran and just presume all police statements to be true. Yeah Iran!
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
So you think that when a foreign national is legally obligated to attend an appeal, he should just snub Canadian law and not show up? Make up your mind man, should foreigners respect Canadian law or not? Now you're encouraging foreign nationals to snub Canada's immigration tribunals.

And the CBSA didn't have to appeal. That was its choice. And the police and CBSA officers also had the choice to not include false statements in their reports. That's what started it all. Perhaps we should hand them the bill for all the costs. I'm not accusing them of lying, I don't know if it was intentional. But at the same time, do we blame a foreign national for a government officer's functional illiteracy? And that's assuming the false statements weren't in fact intentional flat out lies.

But I agree with you. If people learnt how incompetent our officers are, it would be embarrassing for Canada. The best solution is to do like Iran and just presume all police statements to be true. Yeah Iran!



again, it was her choice to come back.When she didn't show up, the judge would have made a ruling for the CBSA and that would have been the end of it. Instead, she wasted her own money and the Canadian taxpayers money on something that you admit to not being that important to her and was just a "principle" thing.

So, as far as I'm concerned she can stick her principles up her a$$ and stay the fu ck out of my country.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
again, it was her choice to come back.When she didn't show up, the judge would have made a ruling for the CBSA and that would have been the end of it. Instead, she wasted her own money and the Canadian taxpayers money on something that you admit to not being that important to her and was just a "principle" thing.

So, as far as I'm concerned she can stick her principles up her a$$ and stay the fu ck out of my country.


I want to stay out of your country too, but we're talking about Canada here, not your country.

You seem to be saying that you support a police state where the police and CBSA can claim what they want to claim, appeal however much they want, and when others defend against the appeal, accuse them of wasting taxpayer dollars? I say the blame for the wastage lies at the feet of the ones who made the appeal, no? The judge alreaddy ruled in her favour. So why couldn't the CBSA just accept that? I could see if new evidence should come out. New evidence did come out, and it only strengthened her case.

Do you believe in a person's right to defend against a false accusaton?

For example. You're an effin child molestor and drug pusher. But don't sue me otherwise you'll be clogging our court system and imposing costs on the taxpayer, got that kiddie diddler?
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
I want to stay out of your country too, but we're talking about Canada here, not your country.

You seem to be saying that you support a police state where the police and CBSA can claim what they want to claim, appeal however much they want, and when others defend against the appeal, accuse them of wasting taxpayer dollars? I say the blame for the wastage lies at the feet of the ones who made the appeal, no? The judge alreaddy ruled in her favour. So why couldn't the CBSA just accept that? I could see if new evidence should come out. New evidence did come out, and it only strengthened her case.

Do you believe in a person's right to defend against a false accusaton?

For example. You're an effin child molestor and drug pusher. But don't sue me otherwise you'll be clogging our court system and imposing costs on the taxpayer, got that kiddie diddler?



'
She has no fu cking rights...she's not a Canadian citizen. If she doesn't like what Canada, or Canada's agents do, then she can stay the fu ck out of Canada. Simple. No skin off my a$$ if she never comes back. I....don't....care.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
17,878
61
48
Ottawa, ON
'
She has no fu cking rights...she's not a Canadian citizen. If she doesn't like what Canada, or Canada's agents do, then she can stay the fu ck out of Canada. Simple. No skin off my a$$ if she never comes back. I....don't....care.

Well, according to Canadian law, she does have rights.

So perhaps we should add a Gerryh Clause to the Constitution:

A tribunal shall accept a government officer's accusations as true until proved false beyond a reasonable doubt. Problem solved.
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
25,756
295
83
Well, according to Canadian law, she does have rights.

So perhaps we should add a Gerryh Clause to the Constitution:

A tribunal shall accept a government officer's accusations as true until proved false beyond a reasonable doubt. Problem solved.


hERE, i CLARIFIED FOR YOU.

'
She has no fu cking rights, AS FAR AS i'M CONCERNED....she's not a Canadian citizen. If she doesn't like what Canada, or Canada's agents do, then she can stay the fu ck out of Canada. Simple. No skin off my a$$ if she never comes back. I....don't....care.
 

personal touch

House Member
Sep 17, 2014
3,023
0
36
alberta/B.C.
There may be cases when the adversarial system is preferable. But when the accused knows that all the evidence will either corroborate her claims or at least not contradict them, and she knows the Minister's counsel has nothing on her but speculation and is just doing what she is paid to do and that is to prove her guilt, I think those are the cases in which the inquisitorial system is far superior to the adversarial one.



At the first hearing, the judge had ruled in her favour on the basis of a balance of probabilities due to her having proved many claims in the CBSA report to have been false and due to irregularities in the police report.

Are you saying an accused should never have the right to challenge an officer's claims?

Unfortunately, the judge ruled too soon. He skipped the witness and the accused's counsel's final testimony before ruling in the accused's favour.

This resulted in the Minister's counsel appealing the decision. At the appeal, the Minister's counsel presented some evidence (pictures) that she'd not shown at the original hearing, to show my friend was in the pictures. The pictures showed her nowhere to be seen in them. But my friend is aware that the Minister's counsel also had access to the names of police officers and other witnesses that she refused to share with my friend's counsel on request.

The problem with that is while the Minister's counsel could not prove my friend's guilt, she could prevent my friend from proving her innocence. This allowed her to drag the process outwhrn it could have been resolved very quickly. The problem though is that the Minister's counsel is actually paid to prove my friend's guilt, so her very job description goes against the goal of finding the truth.

From what I know of my friend's case, I get the impression that under an inquisitorial process, the ruling in her favour would have been far more ironclad and so significantly reduced the probability of an appeal.
Sometimes process are not about winning or losing,going into a process which is administered is not to being reassured that the process will accompany strong legislation,corruption has been recycled through the courts in presentation as being honest and fair, a good Constitutional lawyer would be benificial or a Liberal lawyer could accomadate fair process,
You can have fun in processs but this may not be beneficial for end results
 

WLDB

Senate Member
Jun 24, 2011
6,182
0
36
Ottawa
Your friend should consider herself lucky she was allowed to set foot in our country, period. She should consider herself lucky that she get's any kind of "hearing".

Everyone is entitled to a hearing at minimum.