Russia's Fading From Glory

[Chukcha]

It rose from a quite feudal peasant country to one of the leading industrial countries of the world.

No, wrong, Russia was a much reacher country under the monarchy system, the only thing they needed to change is to help the very poor ones, but not to completely change the system. The poor ones were too hungry to think about anything at all, so they were ready to kill and destroy for the sake of their comfort not for the country.

Good education was available practically to everyone. Roads were build. Children were educated. Yes, they were educated according to the communist ideology, brainwashed, in a sense, but at least they were looked after and taught to study, work and be useful to the country.

Again, wrong idea about that education part, the education was no better than any western country has for public school today, if you were an ordinary person, you could not be in an quality school, but some kids were off course, those who's daddy's used to be in the big seats, but remember, not those who were usefull for the country, but for their own interests. Big seats were occupied by mostly gready, lazy, corruptive and most importantly they were not chosen by the brain, they were there because they had "connections". You should know that. So where do you think the finances were provided for the education, free housing, cheap living (transport, electricity), it was coming out of countries resourses, but the russian resourse were also used by these big heads for their own purposes in large amounts, it was quite comfortable for them to sit their be in charge, in control of the low class, glooming everyone about the west and not giving the chance to see it. So what happened next, thanks to their stupidity, is that russia had ran out of money, because those who had brains were not treated in a special way, but only used like slaves, so those who had brains decided not to work very hard as they didn't see much point, in fact, no one was putting effort in a country's profit, everyone was interested in having a free idle time, and not to put any effort to study, because there were too many restrictions for the "ordinary brainy" people, like the age, the money to enter to the UNI, yes, though, in the legal books there wasn't such thing, but in real life people had to bribe to get somewhere. The country was close to the financial collapse, the communism idea had to be killed and the capitalism took the honor. Right now everyone is suffering, the brainy, the drunkers, the ordinary family people, thanks to who - what do you think? Don't blame everything on Gorbachev, he had to do what had to be done, otherwise, russia would be slaved by some other country.

My point is, the communist government at least did something for the people.

Ideology was supposed to do something for the people, but the people did nothing to the people, they only gloomed everyone around with that ideology. And as I said earlier, I don't even agree with ideolgoy, as it equalises everyone, and it just doesn't seem to be too fair, as some people put efforts to work hard and some sit on their arses. I was also grown up in russia, and I remember, we couldn't dream of things like car, not even Zaporozhetc, we couldn't dream of having a separate apartment, we had to share the apartment with some drunk idlers, sharing kitchen, bathroom and hearing them and their drunk friends screaming and dancing at nights. Our apartment lobbies were always messed with **** and piss, as drunks and teenagers used to party there in cold wheather, and the cleaner was hardly cleaning the place, as she was also too drunk most of the time, and she was still getting paid by the government , the same pay as my mom was receiving with high qualifications and hard work, so here is your fair deal?
We couldn't escape this situation, simply because there was no such thing as "re:employing for better pay" or "buying your own apartment", whatever they give you that's where you live, wherever they send you, that's where you work. But, yeah, some people had it all, those very people who sat on our necks. And frankly I am glad that these people are now paid back what they deserve, I don't pity them at all. I feel sorry for the kids yes. But I was also a kid, and I had a very hard life, very humiliating and hungry life. I hope, things will get better, but they won't untill everyone, including the government would work in the interest of the country. Look at Australia for example, there is no communism, but the poor are still looked after.

I was talking to some people I know, and one of them mentioned Stalin's regime, and the Gulag, and he said how glad he was that these times are over and that people are not dying anymore. Well, they are. If you look up statistics, people are now dying in greater quantities than at that time, without any Gulag. all this is very tragic and frightening, and I am sad for my country and for my people.

As I said earlier, this you should be thankfull to our ex-communists, who practically drowned the country in debts.

 

[Finder]

I have to argue that 1. Socialism in Russia was a facade of the ruling communist party. As a ruling class the Communist party of the Soviet union didn't really follow any principles of Marxism, socialism, or communism, but created grand facades to increase the power of a police state and there own life of luxury. To gaze at some of this I'd recommend a book by the title of "Lenin's Tomb" written by David Remnick. Though Remnick I believe is against any kind of hard line socialism (for a more Liberal Democracy), he does paint a picture of anyone who has studied Marxism and socialism to truly making the soviet union appear like a feudal state with the workers and farmers as serfs and the communist chiefs as the vassals.

Anyhow studying Czarist-Russia you can see any kind of mythical pride being just that. Russia has always lagged behind the west, social ally, economically, militarily and well politically. I'm not trying to bolster the police state of the Soviet Union but truly the soviet constitution though not worth the paper it was written on was hundreds of times more progressive then Czarist rule. Remember it wasn't until the late 19th century that Peasants were freed from Serfdom, in Czarist Russia.

When Studying Russian history, you can either buy into Czarist propaganda (I'm not too sure who does to this day), Communist propaganda or well the truth. The truth is I believe that the Bolshevik Revolution was a step forward for Russia as, I believe you couldn't get any worse then Czarist Russia, it had a lot of potential to become something better, with things such as the NPA and so on. But many things harmed it. Such as the Bolishivics not sharing power, the cival war, and the invasion of soviet Russia by Japaness, Canadian, British and American forces during the cival war which made matters worse.

The Soviet system had many problems but it also achieved many great things. It was corrupt to it's core but also looked out for the bare basic living standards of all it's people. In the end Russia or the Soviet Union can not be a world power. The Soviet Union spent billions on trying to keep up with the West and failed. Today the corpse of the Soviet Union, Russia and all it's former Republics lay in testament of this broken dream and the intense try by the Russian people to become a world power.

Russia is not a fading nation, but has always been a nation which is too large, too un-organized and well too readily to blame the last generation for its failure(s). Today it's the Communists, yesterday the Czars, tomorrow the reformers.

 

[Vereya]

Anyhow studying Czarist-Russia you can see any kind of mythical pride being just that. Russia has always lagged behind the west, social ally, economically, militarily and well politically. I'm not trying to bolster the police state of the Soviet Union but truly the soviet constitution though not worth the paper it was written on was hundreds of times more progressive then Czarist rule.

The truth is I believe that the Bolshevik Revolution was a step forward for Russia as, I believe you couldn't get any worse then Czarist Russia, it had a lot of potential to become something better, with things such as the NPA and so on. But many things harmed it.

The Soviet system had many problems but it also achieved many great things. It was corrupt to it's core but also looked out for the bare basic living standards of all it's people.
Russia is not a fading nation, but has always been a nation which is too large, too un-organized and well too readily to blame the last generation for its failure(s). Today it's the Communists, yesterday the Czars, tomorrow the reformers.

I fully agree with you on these points. The Revolution, despite the Civil War, and all the bloodshed and upheaval connected with it, was a huge step forward. And I agree that Russia was always a difficult country to rule. It is indeed very big and the population large and diverse. But I don't think that it is a dead-end problem that can't be solved. The main problem in Russia is its leaders. They are corrupt and either incapable of improving the people's lives, or are absolutely unwilling to do so.
But I wouldn't say that we are uncapable of being a world power. On the contrary, the Russian nation has great potential to become a world power. Probably, that is why it is being kept as low as it is?

 

[Chukcha]

Russia was always a difficult country to rule. It is indeed very big and the population large and diverse. But I don't think that it is a dead-end problem that can't be solved. The main problem in Russia is its leaders. They are corrupt and either incapable of improving the people's lives, or are absolutely unwilling to do so.

What do you think about communism in China? And again, I am not talking about those people who have nice lives, but about the ordinary low class, fully controlled and slaved people, basicly working for free, not living but surviving - is it also the leaders, what about the communistic south american countries, Vietnam? Is it also the leaders, or maybe nevertherless the root of the communistic system?

 

[Zzarchov]

To pretend Socialism 'broke' russia is a joke.

Russia has never been anything but a Broken Bedpan for europe since Peter.

Was the USSR run by despots and dictators? Yep. But thats all Russia had EVER been run by. Stalin was no worse than Ivan the terrible, and at least Stalin improved the country. Russia in 1900 was for the most part (barring some cities) the same as Russia in 1200.

Lets be honest here, Socialist Dictatorships took the worlds laughingstock "Monarchy" and made it go toe to toe with the richest nation in the world for 50 odd years.

Russia still grew faster under the socialists than it has ever before.

The problem is Russian culture embraces dictators, even now people actively support Putin destroying democracy. And I don't mean in the round about way where they support his policy and don't think its killing democracy, I mean, they say things like "Democracy is a terrible idea and I hope Putin can unroot it from Russia".

Until russia embraces the type of competitive culture that requires everyone be given a fair shake, it will always lag behind the west.

 

[Vereya]

You see, I am in no way trying to protect communism and to make it seem better than it is. What I want to say is - the Revolution and the events that followed were a great stimulus for the country's development. What I know of history convinces me, that Russia wouldn't have taken such a leap in industrial and scientific development without such a major upheaval. Such rapid development was a good thing, but probably the only good thing about communism. My main message was - don't let us blame the communist for every thing that is wrong in Russia nowadays. Finder made a very good point, when he said that we are always eager to blame the last generation. Communists did a lot of harm, but the communist rule ended in 1991. Now it is 2006. Fifteen years have passed. Fifteen years is quite a long time for things to start change for the better. But I don't see such a change, somehow. Everyhting is getting worse and worse. So maybe it is really time to stop blaming the communists and take a better look at what the present-day government is doing? For during this period of fifteen years the presidents and ministers that we had did their best to make us feel happy that we are not communists anymore. This happiness, and this feeling of freedom are used to distract the people from the fact that our lives are in no way improving, and from the fact that the degree of freedom in Russia is gradually decreasing.

 

[Chukcha]

Lets be honest here, Socialist Dictatorships took the worlds laughingstock "Monarchy" and made it go toe to toe with the richest nation in the world for 50 odd years.

I am sorry, I don't remember being reach, at least as well of as I am here now.
I also don't remember any of my relatives, friends or acquaintances having 5% of what an ordinary western person would have. So, how was it reach, may I ask? And who benefited from that "reach" country?

 

[Chukcha]

Fifteen years is quite a long time for things to start change for the better. But I don't see such a change, somehow. Everyhting is getting worse and worse. So maybe it is really time to stop blaming the communists and take a better look at what the present-day government is doing? For during this period of fifteen years the presidents and ministers that we had did their best to make us feel happy that we are not communists anymore. This happiness, and this feeling of freedom are used to distract the people from the fact that our lives are in no way improving, and from the fact that the degree of freedom in Russia is gradually decreasing.

Fifteen year is a very short incompetitive period to restore all the mistakes were done by the rulers during 70 (not 50) years. Every year to destroy takes a year to restore. If the country goes backwards, that will be the final and unreturnable end to its people, fatal.
Maybe it's time to stop blaming the communists and Gorbachev and start looking into a better future, giving the next generation the right education, not seeding the hate, stricktness and fear in their heads but to teach them wisdom and freedom in their beautifull ideas.
Those who didn't go through what my family have, will continue to insist on going back, I've been there, I know how bad ones life can turn out to be.

 

[Finder]

I fully agree with you on these points. The Revolution, despite the Civil War, and all the bloodshed and upheaval connected with it, was a huge step forward. And I agree that Russia was always a difficult country to rule. It is indeed very big and the population large and diverse. But I don't think that it is a dead-end problem that can't be solved. The main problem in Russia is its leaders. They are corrupt and either incapable of improving the people's lives, or are absolutely unwilling to do so.
But I wouldn't say that we are uncapable of being a world power. On the contrary, the Russian nation has great potential to become a world power. Probably, that is why it is being kept as low as it is?

I agree with you.... But blaming the past systems, be it the Soviet or Czarist, or even the Reformists will not help Russia along. To blame the soviet system for all of Russia's woes is ignoring the current administrations corruption, the corruption of the capitalist system and that of the socialist ones. Really Russia is just messed up right now, very large and hard to manage. Always has been always will be, even under the soviet system.

I agree with you again a big problem with Russia is it's leaders and I'm not sure how that could be solved.

But my point however which I think you saw was that you can not blame it all on the Soviets. (I think you saw my point there...)

 

[Finder]

Fifteen year is a very short incompetitive period to restore all the mistakes were done by the rulers during 70 (not 50) years. Every year to destroy takes a year to restore. If the country goes backwards, that will be the final and unreturnable end to its people, fatal.
Maybe it's time to stop blaming the communists and Gorbachev and start looking into a better future, giving the next generation the right education, not seeding the hate, stricktness and fear in their heads but to teach them wisdom and freedom in their beautifull ideas.
Those who didn't go through what my family have, will continue to insist on going back, I've been there, I know how bad ones life can turn out to be.

I agree with you, in part. But teaching them the right history is needed. Teaching them the dirty truth of the Soviet Union and also the glory of the Soviet Union is needed. Many of the goals of the Soviet Union were not bad, but the leaders were corrupt and power hungry and perverted a Utiopian Idea into a nightmare for many.

 

[Chukcha]

Really Russia is just messed up right now, very large and hard to manage. Always has been always will be, even under the soviet system.

Not much bigger than US

 

[Vereya]

agree with you again a big problem with Russia is it's leaders and I'm not sure how that could be solved.
But my point however which I think you saw was that you can not blame it all on the Soviets. (I think you saw my point there...)

I did, indeed. And I fully agree with you on this point.

Teaching them the dirty truth of the Soviet Union and also the glory of the Soviet Union is needed. Many of the goals of the Soviet Union were not bad, but the leaders were corrupt and power hungry and perverted a Utiopian Idea into a nightmare for many.

Absolutely! it is just what I've been trying to say, all along. You said it in so few words, and so much better that I did!

Fifteen year is a very short incompetitive period to restore all the mistakes were done by the rulers during 70 (not 50) years. Every year to destroy takes a year to restore.

yes, 15 years is definitely less than 70, but what I wanted to say was that 15 years should be enough time for things at least to start to improve, if we have proper management.

 

[jimmoyer]

Chukcha, your posts are very interesting. Sounds like you know alot more than we outsiders.

 

[Chukcha]

yes, 15 years is definitely less than 70, but what I wanted to say was that 15 years should be enough time for things at least to start to improve, if we have proper management.

No, it's not, if the country had a bit of stability in a first place, then I should say yes enough already, but as I mentioned earlier, the country was close to death, and if the decision of killing the communism wasn't made than it would have been the "dead" people instead. What would you prefer the life system or life people? But the communism is not dead yet, the communistic minded generation is still present, untill this generation passes it will not change, first of all, secondly, when I mentioned earlier that the country was almost "dead" I meant that it had no money left at all, there were debts owing in huge amounts, these debts are not yet paid, until its paid - russia will not be able to stand firm, so 15 years is not enough in this situation. This is tricky situation, you either pay your debts or continue to provide free living to people but be ready to be destroyed. So I guess the russian government is thinking about the country, maybe more than it's people right now, but it has no choice, once things are better for a country as a whole, people will have better lives.
Do you think Africa should be wealthy and civilised country by now? Why aren't they hurrying up?

 

[Chukcha]

And Vereya, it has changed a little, lets be honest here, the middle class is picking up there now, it's not like say even 10 years ago, when there was only either the very poor or the very rich, there are jobs available, maybe not as well paid as in US or other civilised countries, but people are beginning to afford a comfortable living, even comparing to communism, the middle class now is much better off. The poor still exists mainly due to their own laziness and drinking problems and also staborness "oh!!! the communism was better!!, I didn't have to work so hard, everything was free, so I will be firm, I will be insisting on communism" instead of just start adjusting to the new system and actually start working. Now because of these idlers, the real poor class who really does have financial problems - like the elders, or the single mother are struggling thanks to the lazy, not enough tax paid to the country's resources to support the elders and pay off the HUGE debts at the same time.

 

[Vereya]

Chukcha, I wouldn't compare Russia to Africa. The comparison is not quite appropriate, don't you think?
And as for the middle-class already emerging - well, it does. In Moscow and Saint-Petersburg. Probably in Nizhny Novgorod, as well. And maybe in a couple of other larger cities. I live in an industrial town, two hours' driving from Moscow. The average salary in my town is about two hundred dollars. And my town is not an exception, it is not an extraordinary case. And there a lot of people, whose salaries are even less than the subsistence wage. I wouldn't say that all these people are lazy. They would like to earn some extra money, but in what way can a kindergarted teacher, for instance, make her extra money? it is easy enough for me, because I have had a very good education, and I can always give private lessons or do some translations, but what about people, who are not that lucky? Who didn't have the value of education explained to them while they were young, and who realized only when it was too late? Can you tell me, how can a coal-miner, whose salary is very often in huge arrears, if paid at all, make extra money for himself and his family? And how do you survive if you are a teacher in a village school? Or a nurse in some village hospital?
Yes, if you live in a large city, if you happen to have an education, you can do fairly well. But if you just drive two hours from Moscow, you will see a totally different picture. And despite everything the government is saying, I do not see any change for the better for the kind of people I have mentioned.
And like I said, 15 years is not time enough to solve all the problems, but it should be time enough at least to start moving into the proper direction. I don't see this kind of movement, somehow. Maybe, I am just looking into the wrong direction?

 

[Chukcha]

Chukcha, I wouldn't compare Russia to Africa. The comparison is not quite appropriate, don't you think?

I wasn't really comparing Russia to Africa, I had different point on that.

And as for the middle-class already emerging - well, it does. In Moscow and Saint-Petersburg. Probably in Nizhny Novgorod, as well. And maybe in a couple of other larger cities.

So I think it's a good sign, isn't it

I live in an industrial town, two hours' driving from Moscow. The average salary in my town is about two hundred dollars.

How much salary to you think an average Chinese gets paid in some chinese provincial area? - they are communists, long time ago, actually

I wouldn't say that all these people are lazy. They would like to earn some extra money

Remember, russian had a free education at one stage, why didn't they take an opportunity back then to be better off now?

And like I said, 15 years is not time enough to solve all the problems, but it should be time enough at least to start moving into the proper direction. I don't see this kind of movement, somehow. Maybe, I am just looking into the wrong direction?

Like I said, if russia goes back to communism - IT WILL BECOME LIKE AFRICA - so what choice would you like to have? Be patient, things will get better, let the country itsefl to pick up first. Unfortunately that's how life goes, and at least the next generation will have a better life, only they have to be taught the truth, good faith and be free in their ideas.

 

[Chukcha]

Chukcha, your posts are very interesting. Sounds like you know alot more than we outsiders.

Thanks