Revelation 14

[look3467]

Anybody care to discuss the wording and what it all means in this chapter?

Since it is central to all that I believe to be the designed plan of God, I would gladly discuss my insights into it.

Some questions concerning the words are:
1. Who and why are there 144,000?
2.How is the Fathers name written in their foreheads?
3. Is a lamb a beast?
4.What mean "as the voice of many water, as the voice of great thunder and the voice of harpers harping"?
5.Before the throne?
6.Before the four beasts?
7.Before the elders?
8. What means that only the 144,000 could learn that song?
9. The only ones redeemed?
10. They were not defiled with women?
11. They are virgins?

I think that those are enough questions asked in order to prove that within the whole bible are symbolisms, metaphors, numbers doubled, tripled,and multiplied, visions of this or that.

All of which makes no sense at all to the average reader, for there in lies the mysteries of the ghost writer, who intended for us to seek out those answers if we dared.

If you want to discuss these things, however small or great, please contribute your views, for all views will I entertain.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[mrgrumpy]

"Seek out answers", eh?

I think you mean by answers, YOUR interpretations. For surely YOUR interpretations would not be the same as say the Catholics, or the Uniteds or the Anglicans or the Lutherans or the Presbyterians, or various Jewish sects, or the Mormons or the Seventh day Adventists or for that matter any schmuck on the street, now would they?

 

[hermite]

Uh oh. I know about Harper's harping. Damn, maybe this really is the end.

:lol:

 

[Scott Free]

I think you would have to put the quote in an historical context. I'm sure it meant something to the author but it means nothing to us today. You cant interpret such a text by juxtaposing modern events or you will be taking the authors meaning out of context. That may lead to some insight about our modern world, true, but that can't be taken as the authors intent. This is how mysteries of the bible are routinely misinterpreted.

 

[look3467]

"Seek out answers", eh?

I think you mean by answers, YOUR interpretations. For surely YOUR interpretations would not be the same as say the Catholics, or the Uniteds or the Anglicans or the Lutherans or the Presbyterians, or various Jewish sects, or the Mormons or the Seventh day Adventists or for that matter any schmuck on the street, now would they?

My views are my interpretations yes, but the most beautiful thing about my views is that it includes in Gods plan for all folks regardless of who or what they believe to be saved after this life is all said and done.

It is the view that unites all folk, in a fellowship of love, rather than a dis-fellowship because of beliefs.

Even you, my friend, would be to me a friend first, and your views would be respected.

So, friend, it is good to converse with you despite our differences.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

I think you would have to put the quote in an historical context. I'm sure it meant something to the author but it means nothing to us today. You cant interpret such a text by juxtaposing modern events or you will be taking the authors meaning out of context. That may lead to some insight about our modern world, true, but that can't be taken as the authors intent. This is how mysteries of the bible are routinely misinterpreted.

The historical context of the chapter has to do with the time span between the prophets who prophesied 400 plus years before Christ, and what were the current political conditions at that time.

The message was written addressing all those prophecies, political conditions using them as symbols to convey a spiritual message, that in those times, persecution of believers was going on.

I believe, based on all that I have understood about why it was done that way basically, that mankind needed to perform an action of seeking, analyzing and through experience, learn what God is all about in each individual life.

An inner spiritual growth that transcends above all earthly desires, to the perfection of the inner man of the heart.

The bible speaks of perfect love as casting out all fear. That being the case, when one arrives there at that point, love itself becomes the vehicle by which directs all our actions.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

Uh oh. I know about Harper's harping. Damn, maybe this really is the end.

:lol:

And how is that? Harper's harping?

Peace>>>AJ

 

[MHz]

Anybody care to discuss the wording and what it all means in this chapter?

That would be the day I passed up an opportunity to verbose an otherwise clear short opinion.

Since it is central to all that I believe to be the designed plan of God, I would gladly discuss my insights into it.

My 'outlook' will probably be a bit different.

Some questions concerning the words are:
1. Who and why are there 144,000?

These are the remnant that God will not allow to see the grave after a certain starting time, yet to be.

2.How is the Fathers name written in their foreheads?

God baptizes them with baptize from Heaven (GOD), which is slightly different than baptism from Jesus. Christ is bound by prophecy not to help the rest of the 12 tribes during that certain time. He is also bound to helping them at the end of that period.
If Jesus protected the 144,000 then His face would not be hid from them (all of them).

3. Is a lamb a beast?

The many eyes are references to a number of times that Christ is speaking about some things He does, words with the deed in that one book, following quite quickly in most instances.

4.What mean "as the voice of many water, as the voice of great thunder and the voice of harpers harping"?

It starts out as 'sounding like running water' but at a high volume, like a steady thunder that changed pitch the same way a little brook would.
Apparently the harpers are even louder.

5.Before the throne?

The might be His throne in Heaven 9home of the angels, same place as Satan was called up to a few times in Job. This is not the Great White Throne) If you are wondering about where the Holy Spirit is (God and Christ already mentioned) look no further than the Throne itself.

6.Before the four beasts?

The 'after their kind' that was all flesh with the exception of man. These would be the ones that let God know when even a sparrow died.

7.Before the elders?

They were redeemed from men, the only time that has happened was when some Saints came out of the graves when Jesus did. Take your pick from there back. John the Baptist on back to Adam.
Personally would include a lot from those that were over 120 when they died.

8. What means that only the 144,000 could learn that song?

These are the 'firstfruits' that Christ welcomes into His kingdom when He is wearing the crown that is given to the KING of KINGS. That verse would be complete before the resurrection of the rest of those tribes. These 144,000 would probably be the ones who 'welcome home' the others.

9. The only ones redeemed?

Up to that point, 24 at the cross. The 144,000 should be right after the His two witnesses are resurrected.

10. They were not defiled with women?

It might mean it is an all male group, it might mean they are in the same 'state' as those who are resurrected about the same time. They neither marry nor are they given in marriage. There are a few other possibilities.

11. They are virgins?

They have never married, these go on to have a future that puts them almost as Shepherds to the rest of resurrected Israel.

I think that those are enough questions asked in order to prove that within the whole bible are symbolisms, metaphors, numbers doubled, tripled,and multiplied, visions of this or that.

That sounds like it is going to be rather long, to be fair to, you should write it from scratch rather than repost something you have already written in the past.

All of which makes no sense at all to the average reader, for there in lies the mysteries of the ghost writer, who intended for us to seek out those answers if we dared.

Actually, that is just who Scripture was written for. The first impression of what is being said is what the minute details enhance, it does not change the first impression.
You have to have an impression before you can have a question.

If you like Scripture about visions you should (being that this book was a contender for what ended up being 66 books) read Enoch. I think he was with God for 300 of his 365 years. I wouldn't expect you to understand it all on your first read.
Even then, though the words might seem very spiritual, they cover places that are physical places in Heaven.

 

[look3467]

Hi, MHz

I can see by your answers that you still have the typical view of how all that is seen.

I would like to present to you a different view which in no way takes away the glory to God, but in fact, credits Him with such a wonderful and glorious plan for mankind.

Starting with verse one: Rev 14:1 And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

We see Jesus, the sacrificial lamb (a beast), surrounded by the band of men from the high priests in whose minds are written the letter of the law, the laws of Moses, given to them by the Father God, by which blinds them to see Jesus as the Son of God.
These men are instrumental and are exempt from their wrong doings, because they are as virgins, sealed by the Father to perform as they were led to by the Father who blinded them to Jesus.

Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them.

In understanding the order of the sacrifice, there must be first instituted a high priest that is ordained to offer sacrifices unto God for the people.

Such were these men who accused Jesus of blasphemy; these men were as like Abel, who offered a lamb (Jesus)acceptable to God as a sacrifice, and Jesus was as Cain offering up the first fruits (These 144 band of men) as the sacrifice, which was not favored by God.

But God would not accept them as a sacrifice, but Jesus only, thus, these men are forgiven as being the firsts fruits that are forgiven, meaning they are as like virgins, pure of any wrong doings.

Saying all that then sets the stage for a deeper understanding into those events which happened during that time when Jesus was about to be offered up for the world.

Second verse: Rev 14:2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
The Jewish nation is prepped to bring over to the the ark (Christ) into the promised land by fulfilling the scriptures.

1Ch 15:28 Thus all Israel brought up the ark of the covenant of Jehovah with shouting, and with sound of the cornet, and with trumpets, and with cymbals, sounding aloud with psalteries and harps.

Israel is Gods spokesman as a voice heard from heaven, and as was customary when the ark of the Covenant was brought in that was a joyous occasion of celebration.

Verse 3: Rev 14:3 and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.

Again, the burden of offering Jesus is upon the shoulders of these band of men, who to only was given those instructions, (by the way, Judas is included with them) new the only new song, because to them only was it given to Jesus to as an offering as first fruits sacrifice by Jesus, as a matter of forgiveness, when Jesus said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.
But again, that offering is rejected, for Jesus Himself is the offering which actually forgives them, and all of us to boot.

That is enough for these first 3 verses.

I just wanted you all to see that there is more to the bible than just stories, symbols and numbers, for they all mean something, and that something is what need be sought after for a clear understanding of the book of Revelation.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[chachynga]

they follow Gods laws, and certainly don't eat pork

 

[darkbeaver]

And yet the barbacued pork chop is surely not the least of gods creations--------DB 9-11

 

[dj03]

I think that those are enough questions asked in order to prove that within the whole bible are symbolisms, metaphors, numbers doubled, tripled,and multiplied, visions of this or that.

I didn't realize this was in dispute? Even most "literalists" tend to acknowledge these things and the few that don't are usually too far "out there" to bother discussing things with.

 

[look3467]

I didn't realize this was in dispute? Even most "literalists" tend to acknowledge these things and the few that don't are usually too far "out there" to bother discussing things with.

Understood, but the meanings are not in my opinion.

I know and understand the literalist point of view for I've being one for most of my Christian life.

But unless one wants more than what is understood, one must dig further to the joy of the Father.

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

I searched out the matter!

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Tundra Tornado]

Apocalypsis

It's best to keep in mind when trying to interpret the Book of Revelation that it belongs to the genre of apocalyptic literature, a type of literature quite popular at the time of Jesus. One of its characteristics is the extensive use of imagery and allegory, so literal interpretations almost never work. Also, the writer of the book is clearly expecting the reader to be familiar with other apocalyptic works which are not in our Bible - such as I and II Enoch. Lacking that background, much of what we find in Revelation will necessarily seem obscure.

With that in mind, let me take a crack at chapter 14...

Why 144,000? It's an allegorical number - 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, symbolizing totality. The 144,000 symbolize those who have been martyred for refusing to worship the Beast. This is the true meaning of their "virginity". Idolatry and worshipping false gods is always described in the Old Testament in sexual terms, specifically as fornication and adultery (see verse 8 for an example of this language). They are "virgins" in that they have been faithful to the Lamb unto death.

To have someone's name on your forehead is a way of describing your allegiance. Those faithful to the Lamb have his name on their foreheads, and those faithful to the Beast have his name on theirs (verse 9). Recall as well that in the Israelite world a "name" was something active, a personal force, not just a label.

The remainder of the chapter contains the message that those who worship the Beast will suffer God's judgment, but those who are faithful will ultimately be saved.

The context of this chapter is quite clearly the ongoing martyrdom of Christians, and attempts to answer the question of what happens to those who are martyred. The money quote is verse 13:

"And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

The chapter ends by promising the victory of God's forces on earth against those who are persecuting the Christians.

A prophecy that actually came true with the conversion of Constantine, but I doubt the author of Revelation had that in mind.

Cheers and good luck with the rest of the book.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

It's best to keep in mind ... literal interpretations almost never work.

...

Cheers and good luck with the rest of the book.

Welcome to the boards Tundra. You'll soon find you're plowing sterile ground on this subject. You will not convince some people that (a) the Bible's not literally true, and (b) Revelation is not about our own times.

 

[Tundra Tornado]

Literality

Welcome to the boards Tundra. You'll soon find you're plowing sterile ground on this subject. You will not convince some people that (a) the Bible's not literally true, and (b) Revelation is not about our own times.

Well, parts of the Bible are in fact literally true, as scholars can attest. They're just not he most interesting parts. Also, where the Bible itself clearly intends a symbolic or allegorical meaning (e.g., the parables of Christ), then using a figurative interpretation is in fact the "literal" interpretation, right? Fundamentalism in fact requires non-literal interpretation to make sense of the Bible, since often the literal interpretations are way too scary (the story of the Fall in Genesis is a good example of this).

As for Revelation not being about our time: in one sense, sure. The author Revelation wasn't peering into a crystal ball and seeing Britney Spears entering rehab. In another sense, not so fast. I think Christians undergoing persecution for their faith in the modern world would find the message of Revelation highly relevant to their current situation.

 

[dj03]

I know and understand the literalist point of view for I've being one for most of my Christian life.

What point of view do you have now (in general, not just Revelation)?

 

[dj03]

I think Christians undergoing persecution for their faith in the modern world would find the message of Revelation highly relevant to their current situation.

I think you are right.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Well, parts of the Bible are in fact literally true

Certainly, parts of its story are supported by other sources and many of the people and places in it are, or were, real.

Also, where the Bible itself clearly intends a symbolic or allegorical meaning (e.g., the parables of Christ), then using a figurative interpretation is in fact the "literal" interpretation, right? Fundamentalism in fact requires non-literal interpretation to make sense of the Bible, since often the literal interpretations are way too scary

I think you're just playing with words here a bit, and you know it, or you wouldn't have put "literal" in quotes. Some things are clearly intended as parable, metaphor, and allegory, some things equally clearly are not, and there's a vast gray area where it's not clear. I wouldn't agree though that fundamentalism requires a non-literal interpretation, fundamentalism in my experience takes literally everything that is not clearly identified as not to be taken that way. The tale of the Garden of Eden and the Fall is taken as literally true precisely because its scary and makes wicked, unredeemed sinners of us all.

As for Revelation not being about our time: in one sense, sure. The author Revelation wasn't peering into a crystal ball and seeing Britney Spears entering rehab. In another sense, not so fast. I think Christians undergoing persecution for their faith in the modern world would find the message of Revelation highly relevant to their current situation.

Perhaps they would, but only if they understood it metaphorically. The message is about the triumph of good over evil, how the persecutors will be brought down and the righteous elevated. Like most apocalyptic literature, it's meant to reassure the faithful that things in fact are working out according to some divine plan and it'll all come right in the end. But to take it as a literal description of the end of the world as we know it in the near future, which is how a lot of contemporary fundamentalists read it, is I think a dangerous and foolish delusion.

 

[MHz]

But to take it as a literal description of the end of the world as we know it in the near future, which is how a lot of contemporary fundamentalists read it, is I think a dangerous and foolish delusion.

And it includes a few lines about the world beginning as we don't know it, like sin becoming extinct.
It is neither foolish nor dangerous to view Revelation as a guide to a set sequence of events that follow a rigid time-line. Both the rest of the NT and much of the OT have words that apply only to the events given in Revelation.
If you can't 'shift' the ending of the of prophecy that is in Matt:24 to the first few trumps in Revelation then maybe you haven't tried viewing the literal version. Being in fear of death is thinking your life is in danger, literally. Taken any other way, like death being 'a belief in something' is not literal. The dead rising from graves is literal, it has not happened yet, nor has the literal fulfillment of any of Revelation. Reading about 'Godly power' is different from seeing it unfold.