Revelation 14

[MHz]

It's best to keep in mind when trying to interpret the Book of Revelation that it belongs to the genre of apocalyptic literature, a type of literature quite popular at the time of Jesus. One of its characteristics is the extensive use of imagery and allegory, so literal interpretations almost never work. Also, the writer of the book is clearly expecting the reader to be familiar with other apocalyptic works which are not in our Bible - such as I and II Enoch. Lacking that background, much of what we find in Revelation will necessarily seem obscure.

I'm not sure a chapter or two from Enoch would add any clarity to Revelation. Anything to do with the Son of Man in Enoch is in general terms, although it might shed some light on the rapture issue. There is more than enough Scripture in the Holy Bible to get a fairly clear understanding of what Revelation talks about.
Sure apocalyptic literature was 'popular', every book from Exodus has something to say about the Messiah coming as King (with the muscle to back-up His desires all by Himself). The Day of the Lord is the most common theme of the entire Bible.

The 144,000 symbolize those who have been martyred for refusing to worship the Beast. This is the true meaning of their "virginity". Idolatry and worshipping false gods is always described in the Old Testament in sexual terms, specifically as fornication and adultery (see verse 8 for an example of this language). They are "virgins" in that they have been faithful to the Lamb unto death.

That's interesting, they are sealed before any trump sounds, Satan only makes his entrance at the 5th trump. The locusts cannot harm the ones who have been sealed, I doubt God would then let death take them, plus they are called the 'first-fruits', then 'others, at Christ's return. It would seem that seal is a form of protection from harm. They should be a part of the woman (ch:12) that has the earth itself interfere with Satan & Co.

The chapter ends by promising the victory of God's forces on earth against those who are persecuting the Christians.

A prophecy that actually came true with the conversion of Constantine, but I doubt the author of Revelation had that in mind..

Are these two lines supposed to go together, as persecution was just getting started back then wasn't it?

Small point but Christ was the 'actual author' of Revelation, He was speaking to His 'scribe' who then wrote it down word for word..

 

[look3467]

The bible since it has been put together will be a book for all time, I believe.
Because, it application can be timeless and fits many situations.

But, to get the real picture of what the book of Revelation is making, has to do with the process of recreation that Christ had to go through in order “to save that which was lost”.

Ref: Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

The process had to do with the original story of creation which over a period of time evolved to what it was to the point when Jesus made the scene.

Jesus had but a short time to do it in, in fact, only one day.

So, to compile all sin ever committed and the sin of eternal separation (death), Jesus had to include the souls of all them that ever lived, living and will live, into one body, and sacrifice that body in ransom for all mankind.

Hence chapter fourteen opens with the lamb, the sacrificial lamb and the people around Him as coded 144,000.

You have a beast (lamb) a coded number and “The
Father’s name” on their foreheads.
Notice: the lambs name but the fathers name.

That is because the wall around Jesus are men who in their minds held to the directions and instructions given down through Moses and the prophets which was in direct contrast to that of Jesus’.

144,000 can be said to include all the tribes 12,000 x 12000 =144,000.

But in this case is defines what the subject is about, and that is the wall around Jesus that followed Him everywhere the lamb went.

This wall feel backwards at Jesus’ arrest: Joh 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

REV 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins…

These men, coded virgins, were going to be exempt from their sin of crucifying Jesus when Jesus prayed: “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

There were than as angels doing the will of the Father.

When these men come to take him captive, by law they become captive themselves. Jesus may keep them for bondsmen. But he does not. In his refusal to hold their trespass against them they are therefore redeemed by his grace. This then as an offering to God, as are all of our forgiving of others are.

So, I am saying to you’al, that to the best of my understanding this point of view fits the best possible scenario, because it is in concert with all of the bible from front to end.

All other end time scenarios’ have no substance because it is all guess work, and fuel to promote fear in persuading the world to come to Jesus.

But in fact, the opposite is true, that through the demonstration of love and understanding, more folk could be won to Jesus.

My attitude has changed from nonbelievers going to hell because of their failure to believe in Jesus as I do, to all souls are going to be saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus.

What that now affords me the freedom to express my love without discrimination towards all who would having nothing to do with God, to share God with them in a way that would give God the credit because of my actions.

The God of the bible is a loving God, but has been tainted by mankind’s interpretation of Him.

Hence” Father forgive them for they know not what they do” because we will all be forgiven.
The key issue for mankind was the death of it’s soul, meaning the soul had no hope of ever getting into heaven were it not that God provided the means to do so for mankind.

Once that is realized, the soul is liberated, free from all dogmas, practices and is under bondage to no one.
Peace>>>AJ

 

[Tundra Tornado]

Fundamentalist Metaphors

Certainly, parts of its story are supported by other sources and many of the people and places in it are, or were, real. I think you're just playing with words here a bit, and you know it, or you wouldn't have put "literal" in quotes. Some things are clearly intended as parable, metaphor, and allegory, some things equally clearly are not, and there's a vast gray area where it's not clear. I wouldn't agree though that fundamentalism requires a non-literal interpretation, fundamentalism in my experience takes literally everything that is not clearly identified as not to be taken that way. The tale of the Garden of Eden and the Fall is taken as literally true precisely because its scary and makes wicked, unredeemed sinners of us all.

Perhaps they would, but only if they understood it metaphorically. The message is about the triumph of good over evil, how the persecutors will be brought down and the righteous elevated. Like most apocalyptic literature, it's meant to reassure the faithful that things in fact are working out according to some divine plan and it'll all come right in the end. But to take it as a literal description of the end of the world as we know it in the near future, which is how a lot of contemporary fundamentalists read it, is I think a dangerous and foolish delusion.

It's not clear to me how I'm "playing with words". I'm just pointing out that "literal interpretation" is itself an ambiguous term. One standard meaning of the term, at least in terms of literary exegesis, is "it means what the author intended it to mean". But if part of the author's intention was for a passage to be taken symbolically or metaphorically, then the literal reading of that passage would have to be symbolic or metaphorical. QED.

And fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible absolutely has to rely on non-literal interpretations of the Bible in order to protect its own assumptions. A classic case of this is when Jesus says we must hate our fathers and mothers to follow him. Show me a fundamentalist who insists on a literal meaning of that passage. You won't find one.

Or when Paul says that *all* goverment authorities are appointed by God, and must be obeyed. Fundamentalists aren't too keen to accept that as a literal truth when they decide to condemn and oppose the governments they live under.

I could multiply this list many, many times without even breaking a sweat.

 

[Tundra Tornado]

Persecution

I'm not sure a chapter or two from Enoch would add any clarity to Revelation. Anything to do with the Son of Man in Enoch is in general terms, although it might shed some light on the rapture issue. There is more than enough Scripture in the Holy Bible to get a fairly clear understanding of what Revelation talks about.
Sure apocalyptic literature was 'popular', every book from Exodus has something to say about the Messiah coming as King (with the muscle to back-up His desires all by Himself). The Day of the Lord is the most common theme of the entire Bible.


That's interesting, they are sealed before any trump sounds, Satan only makes his entrance at the 5th trump. The locusts cannot harm the ones who have been sealed, I doubt God would then let death take them, plus they are called the 'first-fruits', then 'others, at Christ's return. It would seem that seal is a form of protection from harm. They should be a part of the woman (ch:12) that has the earth itself interfere with Satan & Co.


Are these two lines supposed to go together, as persecution was just getting started back then wasn't it?

Small point but Christ was the 'actual author' of Revelation, He was speaking to His 'scribe' who then wrote it down word for word..

The earliest persecutions of Christians were carried out by Nero and Caligula, and continued periodically for the next two centuries. The generally accepted date for the authorship of Revelation coincides almost exactly with Caligula's persecution. Indeed, the number of the beast (which is actually 616, not 666), can easily be decoded to yield Caligula's name.

Roman persecutions of Christians only ended with the conversion of Constantine to Christianity (that is to say, persecutions of Christians by non-Christians. Persecution of Christians by other Christians was just beginning). So John's prophecy ultimately came true.

Rev. 14 is also concerned to answer a question that was to bedevil early Christianity right through the time of Augustine. Namely, what is the fate of those who were Christians, but who then gave up their faith under duress during persecutions? Were they still saved? Or were they damned? Revelation gives a rather harsh answer to that question.

And no matter how you understand the experiences that led the author of Revelation to write his book, it's undisputed that he's the one who actually did the writing, even if he was being dictated to by a fiery angel. God leaves the manual labor to us. Typical boss!

 

[look3467]

And no matter how you understand the experiences that led the author of Revelation to write his book, it's undisputed that he's the one who actually did the writing, even if he was being dictated to by a fiery angel. God leaves the manual labor to us. Typical boss! >>>Tundra Tornado

The application of parts or all of the book of Revelation is hinged on individual beliefs, at different time spans in human history.

I found an old book written in the early 1800's by some bishop detailing the end of the world in 1844.

I came across that book not by co- incidence but by design so as to further my knowledge of understanding concerning my desire to find truth of the end times.

But I can see clearly now the true message is in the works of God in reconciling the world back unto Him self more so that what the message Christianity gets out of it today.

In reality, God deceived us in order for us to be like Him, but knew also to give us hope and to save us where no one else could.

In its place, we get to be like Him in practice, but understand this, we are accountable for our actions until the death. Death is the wages for that accountability.

After that, we are totally His.

Peace>>>AJ