Republican slams iraqi governement

[MikeyDB]

Jim

Your contribution restores much of my faith in the American people. While I'm harshly critical of any presuposition that declares that violent intervention in any national/political scenario is urgently demanded, hindsight is 20-20.

Do you think it's possible that more Americans will entertain the possibility that the actions taken by the Bush administration were egregiously and disingenuously undertaken or will the American people fear the "loss of face" as an insurmountable problem to regaining control of their government and social institutions?

 

[flipside]

Jim

Your contribution restores much of my faith in the American people. While I'm harshly critical of any presuposition that declares that violent intervention in any national/political scenario is urgently demanded, hindsight is 20-20.

Do you think it's possible that more Americans will entertain the possibility that the actions taken by the Bush administration were egregiously and disingenuously undertaken or will the American people fear the "loss of face" as an insurmountable problem to regaining control of their government and social institutions?

I travel to the US frequently, and have both relatives and friends from NY to Florida. I also travel once a year internationally.
I would have to say that 95% of the Americans I know and have met are completely embarrassed of George Bush and thier entire administration, and near that number do not think the US should be in the Middle East anymore.

Although none of them are super religious, and none believe FAUX news.

 

[talloola]

What a mess.

"we" were wrong.

I respect you so much for saying the above, and with that, I support your country to struggle back
to normal and learn from their mistakes.

 

[jimmoyer]

When my Dad laid in a VA (Vet admin) hospital (from service in Germany during Korean war years)
from a stroke, we'd watch the news together just like when I was little.

The one thing that stayed with me while supporting this war in the beginning was my Dad saying, "We're supposed to take the hit first. We're not supposed to attack first."

I trotted out the argument that in this day and age we can't wait to get hit first, because that first hit might be more than devastating.

He was quiet, which means neither point was cancelled, which means both points grow larger in the silence.

However it was his point that grew larger in the silence since.

And another argument has since fallen away. I thought it was the "soft bigotry of low expectations" that the Middle East cannot handle democracy, that such an attitutude was patronizing and a put down, hating that old argument they've been fighting for 1000s of years. Funny. I believe North Americans have been fighting for 1000s of years too.
But we have such a mess. We were too egotistical.


Our friend is going back to Iraq for the 4th time.

His eyes show it.

He's 51. National Guard.


MikeyDB, I don't think most Americans worry about losing face. That happened a long time ago with the world. We're just seeing that although we would like to make right what we made wrong in Iraq, we won't be able to make it right.

 

[mabudon]

I think a few others have said it better than I could, but anyways- the "good" folks all around the world are pulling for the "good" Usonians in this one- frankly I always have been but some of the propaganda seemed to speak to people a LOT louder than appeals for reason aond thorough consideration. I will not say "I told you so", but will say that I am glad that what has been obvious to some for so long is finally coming into the light

I hope, too, that the sheer scale of the mess is enough to put some momentum against this world-wide crusade in our own country too. Our "mission" is a cruel joke on pretty much the entire globe, and "we" must be stopped, and if it takes an awful, sobering reality to do it then so be it. I would wish it wasn't this way, but there's no good in that.

Sorry about your friend, Jimmoyer, that truly sucks, especially since a lot of folks who join the National Guard actually intend to be there for the country when the country needs them, a truly noble calling... getting sent to risk senseless death in a gigantic mistake is likely pretty damn far away from the spirit in which he signed on, and a true betrayal of the principles upon which the US was ostensibly founded. I do really hope he makes it through.

Hope you get your country back, and I hope we're not far behind.

 

[jimmoyer]

Mabudon, a little more humility and a little more respect for the enormity of the problem and a better understanding of the long history of hubris would be good attributes to see in a leader.

I should have had more suspicion earlier.
I remember wishing Bush had included Senator Joe Biden's request to seriously discuss AFTERMATH issues. I still remember those hearings.

Canada is one of the more braver nations sticking its neck out in the mountains of Afghanistan.

I really wish we could help Afghanistan and follow up on our promises of building infrastructure for that nation. I also wish we could make right what we did wrong in Iraq.

 

[talloola]

Mabudon, a little more humility and a little more respect for the enormity of the problem and a better understanding of the long history of hubris would be good attributes to see in a leader.

I should have had more suspicion earlier.
I remember wishing Bush had included Senator Joe Biden's request to seriously discuss AFTERMATH issues. I still remember those hearings.

Canada is one of the more braver nations sticking its neck out in the mountains of Afghanistan.

I really wish we could help Afghanistan and follow up on our promises of building infrastructure for that nation. I also wish we could make right what we did wrong in Iraq.

I will always remember Joe Biden speaking on more than one occasion before the Iraq war, he was
so diplomatic and sensible, thought of so many reasons why the invasion shouldn't take place, and
he even explained his worry that the Iraqi people would not come together to form any kind of
unification. Noone would listen, noone at all, even if he was a republican, they wouldn't have
listened. Too bad.
He asked what kind of preparation had been made for the AFTERMATH he was never given a
proper answer.

We all realize now, that none of the republicans/administration KNEW, they went in there blind and
stupid, following their leader who wore his big cowboy hat and ego, that cowboy hat didn't have
to protect much at all.

 

[gopher]

Here in Minnesota there is virtually no talk about the war anymore. Its former defenders now are too ashamed of defending it or Bush, and the anti war crowd has become silent knowing that it was correct all along.

But with that lack of discussion, nothing is being done to end the damn war! People are still dying in Iraq and nobody is keeping watch or doing much about it,

 

[talloola]

Here in Minnesota there is virtually no talk about the war anymore. Its former defenders now are too ashamed of defending it or Bush, and the anti war crowd has become silent knowing that it was correct all along.

But with that lack of discussion, nothing is being done to end the damn war! People are still dying in Iraq and nobody is keeping watch or doing much about it,

Until that so-called president actually does something himself, or, his own party revolts against him,
nothing will happen, Bush and Chaney will push on, so arrogant and stubborn, and still not admitting
they made all the wrong decisions in the beginning.
The democrats can't make him bring the troups home, they can only prevent money from going to the
military, then the republicans will scream that the democrats are the cause of their own troops
being killed, cause they won't support them. They're dammed if they do and dammed if they don't.
Hurry up 2008, get here faster.

 

[earth_as_one]

We REpublicans and conservatives got a rude awakening (one of many) that the Baghdad government is going to take a 2 month vacation right during the Surge where our sons and daughters are going to die for them.

Meanwhile they will also not adopt the Alaska plan whereby every citizen gets paid a check from oil revenue.

Disgusting.

The rest of the world was right.

Since they are paid to sign documents written by the American government, taking a holiday is a form of defiance. Neocons can't trust their bribed Iraqis? That's too bad.

Families of Iraqi vets have my sympathies, but their sons and daughters are not dying for Iraqis. They never were. It should be obvious by now that's BS propaganda. The sad truth is that they are a hostile occupation force guarding foreign oil interests.

Some clues:

A majority of Iraqi lawmakers want the US to leave:

Majority of Iraq Lawmakers Seek Timetable for U.S. Exit

Joe Raedle/Getty Images
An American unit from the Second Battalion, Seventh Marines, on security patrol Friday near Falluja in Anbar Province in western Iraq. Iraqi lawmakers have signed a petition calling for a legislated timetable to govern a withdrawal of American troops from their country.


By KIRK SEMPLE
Published: May 12, 2007

BAGHDAD, May 11 — A majority of Iraq’s Parliament members have signed a petition for a timetable governing a withdrawal of American troops, several legislators said Friday.

The rest here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/12/world/middleeast/12iraq.html

Iraqi violence directed at Americans has majority support in Iraq.

Secret MoD poll: Iraqis support attacks on British troops


By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
Last Updated: 11:59pm BST 22/10/2005





Millions of Iraqis believe that suicide attacks against British troops are justified, a secret military poll commissioned by senior officers has revealed.
The poll, undertaken for the Ministry of Defence and seen by The Sunday Telegraph, shows that up to 65 per cent of Iraqi citizens support attacks and fewer than one per cent think Allied military involvement is helping to improve security in their country...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...ml&sSheet=/portal/2005/10/23/ixportaltop.html

But a big clue that American invasion/occupation forces are not welcome in Iraq should be the rate at which American invasion/occupation forces are attacked by Iraqis.

Why shouldn't be a mystery:

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/international-politics/62509-what-price-life.html#post835601

http://forums.canadiancontent.net/international-politics/62509-what-price-life.html#post836020

 

[earth_as_one]

Another fine American product. Arm them then call them a danger to the world...invade them and kill a few hundred thousand then whine that you're getting body-bags at home...

America is the enemy. From the time that the "big-stick" mentality impressed the American people as the assurance of their absolute right to wage war and destruction on anyone in the name of greed....

Luckily the greed of mankind as epitomized by America is finally closing the book on this little planet and global climate change will perhaps change perspectives enthralled with consumption and greed regardless of the millions that have to die....

American involvement in the middle east won't end when the US pulls out of Iraq. The various powers inside and outside Iraq will slice up Iraq. Violence will follow Americans forces when they retreat to Kurdistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan and Turkey. Iraq will be run by heavily armed, battle hardened war lords flush with oil wealth. When Saudi Arabian oil is interrupted, it will result in sky high oil prices benefiting Iran and Iraq. Sooner or later Saudi leaders won't have enough oil wealth to sustain themselves leading to revolution...

The longterm looks worse than the short term.

 

[MikeyDB]

Earth-as-One

What has happened in Iraq isn’t new, and certainly the aftermath of these events won’t be new either. Empires fall. Dictators and oppressors come and go. The disheartening (not that there’s only just one…) and larger dynamic that’s emerged is the preparedness of people the world over to surrender to those darker angels of our nature….

We’ve had controversies and boondoggles throughout human history.

Every human endeavor must by the nature of the beast be plagued with the shortsightedness of a temporal being that struggles daily to understand his own existence and respond to the impulses of his genetic and sociological nature/rapprochement.
Governments if ever undertaking the task of serving populations best interests… are rendered suitors to the appetites of those cultures. Our conditioned acceptance of patriotic hubris predicated on consumption and notions of entitlement are what have given the instigators and the perpetrators their license. Our choices to live beyond our means and bet on the disciplines of science and notions of social conscience wrapped up in misunderstood and poorly synthesized concepts of morality and altruism have failed. In abandoning our subscription to a perception of the world as anything larger than our interest in having our individual and immediate “needs” met accommodated and satisfied we’ve effectively rejected the fundamental nature of what it is to exist as a human being… A member of a species, who as individuals, are all as equally reliant on that blanket of air that surrounds the world and is shared by everyone as surely as we are all dependent on every drop of water that has ever or will ever exist. We have instead opted to conceptualize the planet and those critical sub-elements and constituents of this ball whirling through space as a reservoir of wealth and power, not the very substance of existence that it is.

As we’ve witnessed time and time again throughout the human saga, only when sufficient numbers of people suffer and die will there be a sea change of thinking that has any hope of effecting potentially positive change. The hallmark of life is consumption. While reproduction and the maelstrom of petty idiosyncrasies that balloon into social institutions like religion and philosophy, expanding and contracting as mental and social sophistication changes, it is the nature of the organism to consume what is required to survive. And this is the basic mistake we’ve made. We’ve become conditioned to believe that our survival as societies and cultures can proceed without attention or consideration given to the billions of other beings that populate this little life raft in space.

It is inevitable that until and unless a balance can be found, that we will continue to regard only the temporal, the “here-and-now” of existence as somehow more important than the larger mosaic of life on this planet. Something we like to call “mother nature” will perform the reckoning that is required, regardless of our protests and our willingness to self-delusion.

Is there anything that can accelerate our thinking? Likely not. Millions the world over have willingly accepted that the hierarchies and structures of governments and social institutions are suitable to the task at hand. We have inadvertently and intentionally given the enormous power to destroy and wage war the uppermost hand in defining our future. We are loathe it would seem to hold not only ourselves but our elected structures accountable to any future beyond our own lifespan.

Perhaps it’s time the door is closed.

 

[gopher]

Bush's war of imperialistic terrorism is an unjust and criminal war. Defending him is defending treason.


Some anonymous inquirer asked, what kind of question is that?

Answer: the truth.

In a democracy, the majority rule. We, the patriotic majority say NO MORE WAR!

 

[MikeyDB]

Hear Hear Gopher!

Have any idea how the masses of the great unwashed electorate can be informed? It's a damn shame that American politics and the most recent elections in America have appeared more like the scam and chance "elections" taking place in bananna republics and communist strongholds.

America will only regain it's freedom when the oppressors in the Whitehouse are expunged.

 

[gopher]

Amen!

 

[normbc9]

The elected representatives of Iraq are smarter than those from the US who are monitoring the non-progress of that constitutionally elected body. The Iraqi member have been successfully siphoning off US aid funds to help construct new villas and country estates for them and even use US forces to protect the construction crews. The true issue about this whole sad affair is that the oil Dick Cheney envisioned getting has never been realized and now the new plan is to try again to get it flowing. The US has changed contrctors in the region and are now using a Yemeni frm to protect the oil facilities using the theory that Muslim led and staffed teams may suffer fewer attacks from the insurgent groups. I'll bet that plan doesn't experience any better results than the previous one. But, failure never deters the US planners. Look at our previous gunboat diplomacy record in the world. Most of the time it is an expensive failure and unfortunately many lives are affected. The loss of an individual soldier is just a number to the government but to the families affected it is the loss of a loved one and leaves a hole in the fabric of the lives of the surviving family members that can never be completely healed.

 

[jimmoyer]

I'm pretty much dismayed. I remember how I used to argue FOR this war.

I asked Charlie "Chick" Roland, an 86 year old historian of the Civil War and soldier in the Normandy invasion and Battle of the Bulge, what he thought of the current status of the war and what we should do.

I asked him if Bush's father was the wiser for not going all the way to Baghdad in Gulf War I and if the incompetence demonstrated in the aftermath of this war could have gotten a better result.

His answer sounded conveniently self serving for the American cause, but this is a spry 86 year old guy having the long view over time and who despite one rock in his Maker's Mark --or because of it---takes the long Hegelian view of thesis battling antithesis and that no matter what some forces of history collide if not now, will do so later. Yes it sounds convenient on the shallow surface.

But, I wonder about the Ground Hog day syndrome.


No matter what, two cultures are colliding.

Give yourself an infinite number of tries. It's Ground Hog Day.