Reality can be so unpatriotic.

[athabaska]

Re: RE: Reality can be so unpatriotic.

Just finished reading in the Globe and Mail that the resolutions at the NDP convention included pulling Canadian troops TOTALLY out of Afghanistan (known unofficially as the cut and run, stab your allies in the back because we're cowards resolution), along with one calling for a two-state solution in the ME (sensible) and one that listed Israel's sins, while praising Hezbollah as elected social workers.

All these resolutions got more than 90% support.

The last resolution irritated one sitting NDP MP who asked that it also be noted Hezbollahis a terrorist organization. She was booed down by the crowd.

DAMN! I had hoped that the NDP would maintain a facsimile of sanity until the next election, and draw away some of the Liberal voters, helping the Conservatives get a majority.

No such luck. The NDP have gone completely loopy.

The NDP will wallow as the 4th place party in the House of Commons... again. They will have these resolutions played back to them and have lost any inroads they made in Atlantic Canada....and will gain zilch among rural voters, zilch in Alberta. The only place they might go over well with these resolutions is in Quebec but they will do zilch there for other reasons. After 18 federal elections as a failure the NDP might be headed for oblivion. I really thought they had a chance to challenge the Liberals if they played their cards right. Now? Now they will lose votes to the Libs in Atlantic Canada and suburbia...and at the same time will be squeezed by the Greens for younger voters and on the environment. Next election...10 NDP seats, tops.

 

[Toro]

Re: RE: Reality can be so unpatriotic.

A high profile journalist was on one US network discussing Afghanistan tonight. He remarked that the US never defeated the Taliban.

In his book, the guy who runs Strategic Forecasting, George Friedman, made this point. Friedman also wrote that, despite the public rhetoric, the US government believed the campaign in Afghanistan was fought to a draw.

 

[BitWhys]

Re: RE: Reality can be so unpatriotic.

The NDP will wallow as the 4th place party in the House of Commons... again. They will have these resolutions played back to them and have lost any inroads they made in Atlantic Canada....and will gain zilch among rural voters, zilch in Alberta. The only place they might go over well with these resolutions is in Quebec but they will do zilch there for other reasons. After 18 federal elections as a failure the NDP might be headed for oblivion. I really thought they had a chance to challenge the Liberals if they played their cards right. Now? Now they will lose votes to the Libs in Atlantic Canada and suburbia...and at the same time will be squeezed by the Greens for younger voters and on the environment. Next election...10 NDP seats, tops.

...but when Grandstand Steve ignores the polls and stands by his principles its a good thing.

damn

just when Jack does the right thing the metric changes. oh well.

 

[BitWhys]

Re: RE: Reality can be so unpatriotic.

In his book, the guy who runs Strategic Forecasting, George Friedman, made this point. Friedman also wrote that, despite the public rhetoric, the US government believed the campaign in Afghanistan was fought to a draw.

Like it or not, the Taliban are a political force over there and nothing will be solved until we manage to abandon certain platitudes about "terrorists".

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Re: RE: Reality can be so unpatriotic.

Ya, back in Canada. It's much more defensible here.

If that's meant as a retort its ironic you'd say that since the defense of Canada is supposed to be the whole object of the exercise.

I'm not quite sure why you are so fond of the Taleban. The government of Afghanistan has asked that we stay until their country is on their feet. Is it your wish that we leave the people of Afghanistan to the tender mercies of the mullahs?

The Canadian Armed forces are a fighting force, not feel-good party planners or day-care nannies. A nation cannot survive with militant factions operating as independent entities. If Afghanistan is to have any hope of establishing itself as a functioning nation the government must be the one who decides what it's armed force will be and what they will do. Armed warlords and destabilizing factions cannot be allowed free reign.

Do we choose to run away from our commitments? I sure don't think that is the choice our armed forces would make. It's not the choice I want made in my name.

 

[BitWhys]

Re: RE: Reality can be so unpatriotic.

I'm not quite sure why you are so fond of the Taleban.

don't hurt yourself trying to figure it out because I'm not. its called real politik.

...

Do we choose to run away from our commitments? I sure don't think that is the choice our armed forces would make. It's not the choice I want made in my name.

no. absolutely not. we keep our troops on a fool's errand so your precious pride doesn't get hurt. :roll:

 

[iARTthere4iam]

Whatever we decide to do should be based on a rational foreign policy, unfortunately we don't have one and so seem to be winging it. This is a sad and stupid way for a country to behave.
Having said that we have gone to Afghanistan. We are there. Parliment decided to extend the mission. Leaving there because we don't like taking casualties is weakness. To go there with parlimentary approval under two governments and then to turn tail and run is cowardice. Showing the world that we don't honour our commitments, that we care nothing for a nation that wants our help is not in our best interest.

 

[BitWhys]

RE: Reality can be so unp

I'm waiting on my riding office to track down a copy of the resolution on Afghanistan as it passed so I won't know for sure until then, but its Jack's idea that Canada should also begin working immediately with the NATO nations who won't send troops into the south (which is the vast majority of them) to see what they find wrong about the mission and work out a strategy with a potential to actually work and return ASAP.

The intention of the resolution, afaik, is NOT to abandon Afghanistan but rather to give the mission the direction it needs to be successful.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Reality can be so unp

I'm waiting on my riding office to track down a copy of the resolution on Afghanistan as it passed so I won't know for sure until then, but its Jack's idea that Canada should also begin working immediately with the NATO nations who won't send troops into the south (which is the vast majority of them) to see what they find wrong about the mission and work out a strategy with a potential to actually work and return ASAP.

The intention of the resolution, afaik, is NOT to abandon Afghanistan but rather to give the mission the direction it needs to be successful.

Just for a moment, I'm going to pretend that Jack and the NDP are serious......that they believe there is some alternate way in Afghanistan.

Okay........so why not work on this alternate plan while we continue to exert pressure on the Taliban? A carrot and stick approach I can understand.....abandoning the field in the face of the enemy will garner you NO respect either from our NATO allies, or the Taliban.

AND, from every report I've heard, the resolution amounts to the following:

RUN AWAY!

RUN ALL THE WAY!

To Canada, that is.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Reality can be so unpatriotic.

The NDP will wallow as the 4th place party in the House of Commons... again. They will have these resolutions played back to them and have lost any inroads they made in Atlantic Canada....and will gain zilch among rural voters, zilch in Alberta. The only place they might go over well with these resolutions is in Quebec but they will do zilch there for other reasons. After 18 federal elections as a failure the NDP might be headed for oblivion. I really thought they had a chance to challenge the Liberals if they played their cards right. Now? Now they will lose votes to the Libs in Atlantic Canada and suburbia...and at the same time will be squeezed by the Greens for younger voters and on the environment. Next election...10 NDP seats, tops.

...but when Grandstand Steve ignores the polls and stands by his principles its a good thing.

damn

just when Jack does the right thing the metric changes. oh well.

There is a difference between understanding political reality and doing the right thing.

Steve has done the right thing......stayed commited in Afghanistan, and supported Israel............and, I'm sorry to say, it may cost him mightily.

He is most definitely NOT a Liberal.

But, as I learned long ago in Poly-Sci......the principled side almost always loses in a democracy.

 

[hermanntrude]

Reality can be so unpatriotic

that's because national borders are fictional. reality ignores our made up borders and causes "unpatriotism"

 

[BitWhys]

Re: RE: Reality can be so unp

...A carrot and stick approach I can understands...

I think if we predefine our position in that manner alone we do ourselves and all those involved a disservice. There are some aspects of Canada's position that should not ever be compromised and we need to place those aspects front and centre on the table before we even sit down.

We also need to make it clear to the Taliban that we understand we cannot win this stuggle by force of arms but just as importantly, neither can they. Also we must make every effort to ensure they understand that even though we are willing to talk in order to reduce the suffering, just like them when it comes to what we believe in, we will never back down.

There are basic human rights that we as Canadians will never sacrifice either for ourselves or those we are trying to help whether it brings an end to fighting or not. That said, I'm convinced our way of life is not so uncommon to the culture the Taliban proports to represent that what we hold dear to ourselves and others and refuse to abandon would not prove insurmountable.

 

[BitWhys]

Reality can be so unpatriotic

that's because national borders are fictional. reality ignores our made up borders and causes "unpatriotism"

so true. but the nation-state is part of present day realpolitik and the best terms of reference yet available.

 

[hermanntrude]

RE: Reality can be so unp

I have no terms of reference. I am referenceless. A citizen of the Universe. except when the footy's on

 

[BitWhys]

LOL!

one of these days I'm going to pick up "How Soccer Explains the World".