The very idea that these home movies of torture could be shown at senior US politician's homes means that ordinary porn no longer does anything for these sick twisted people. Perhaps they really are Satanists. :x
RATIONALIZING TORTURE
- Thread starter jimmoyer
- Start date
Torture as a means of extracting information is notoriously inefficiect,so the only benefit of torture is for the enjoyment and amusments of the torturers. The use of drugs is recommended for info extraction.
I didn't win over my conservative friends tonight, that maybe torture does not ever accomplish moral or practical strategical ends.
My conservative friends are right about the essentially shallow partisan nature of the liberals, but they are essentially wrong after all the pros and cons are said and done that torture still does not ever meet the goals the conservatives may value.
My conservative friends are right about the essentially shallow partisan nature of the liberals, but they are essentially wrong after all the pros and cons are said and done that torture still does not ever meet the goals the conservatives may value.
Liberals are not shallow and partisan, Jimmy. The majority of them have come to their beliefs and understandings through careful thought about the issues. That's why you find liberals trying to give real answers while the conservatives spew platitudes, misinterpret religion, and resort to character assination and purposeful misunderstanding.
Well Reverend Blair I might be as wrong as you in characterizing the opposite side. My conservative friends are just as 3-dimensional as your liberal friends and yes Peapod no party affiliation matters on this issue of torture, but I'm trying to sort my way through this maze of vitriol in our conservations.
The vitriol exists because some very partisan religious conservatives joined forces with some nut-bag neo-conservatives and hijacked the political system in the United States and elected Reagan. The polarisation has been growing ever since.
What the conservatives did to Clinton...the lies, the fake stories in the media, the constant attacks...pushed things to the point where you now get what you've given for so long, Jimmy. Bush and his followers have made things worse by upping the ante and telling even more lies.
The mess that your religious right (maybe we should call them the religious wrong) and neo-cons created has been spreading to Canada. We're just a few years behind you is all. If you look at the lunatics in our Conservative Party, they are using the same tactics and pushing the same brand of bullshit that your Republican party succumbed to.
What the conservatives did to Clinton...the lies, the fake stories in the media, the constant attacks...pushed things to the point where you now get what you've given for so long, Jimmy. Bush and his followers have made things worse by upping the ante and telling even more lies.
The mess that your religious right (maybe we should call them the religious wrong) and neo-cons created has been spreading to Canada. We're just a few years behind you is all. If you look at the lunatics in our Conservative Party, they are using the same tactics and pushing the same brand of bullshit that your Republican party succumbed to.
Well, this religious right is not monolithic. I live in the heart of the religious right who are no where near the shrillness of the more extremist leaders. And although I go to church with them, I do not push in their faces any disagreement, knowing as you do that some of your characterizations are indeed right, but it won't blind me to what talent and ability lies in them that can exceed the talents and abilities of someone who thinks like a good liberal should think.
It's not about talent, Jimmy. It's about them pushing their radical religious beliefs on others through legislation and their failed economic plans, which have been killing people all over the world for a quarter of a century, on people who just can't afford it anymore.
You know what I hear just about every day? That the NDP is a tax and spend party. BULLSHIT. It's been repeated so many times that people think it's true. The truth is that if you take a hard look at NDP governments they are no worse, and generally better, than other parties when it comes to finances.
Meanwhile we are told that conservatives are fiscally responsible. BULLSHIT. As you are seeing in your country, the people who call themselves conservatives spend insanely. They are also responsible for shifting the tax burden disproportionately onto the middle class and working people.
The other lie that the religious right pushes is that separation of church and state should not exist. In your country they've gotten so out of hand that many claim that the United States was meant to be and has always been a Christian country. BULLSHIT. Your founding fathers, many of whom were not Christians, wrote extensively on the importance of keeping a specific religion out of politics. The separation of church and state has become one of the central tenets of democracy in large part because of the emphasis that your founders placed on it.
In Canada the religious right is still pushing the vague falsehoods that your religious miscreants used to make. They say things like, "All of our laws are based on the Bible," and "Canada was meant to be a Christian country." Again, BULLSHIT. Our laws are based in British common law which goes back to before the Romans. Canada wasn't meant to be anything but a supplier of beaver furs and a nice place to fish in the summer.
So why does the oh-so-moral religious right lie so much, Jimmy? You say you go to church, so I assume you read the instruction book. Telling lies is a no-no. So is killing people to enrich yourself.
Tell that to your neo-conservative, bible-thumping friends. They'll call you a communist, but so what?
Oh, and the next time you are watching TV with them and one of those ads with starving children comes on, look at your neo-conservative, Falwell worshipping friends and say, "We did this. Those kids are starving because of our policies."
You and your buddies on the radical right better pray that the atheists are right, Jimmy. If we're wrong and there is a god, then you're all going to hell.
You know what I hear just about every day? That the NDP is a tax and spend party. BULLSHIT. It's been repeated so many times that people think it's true. The truth is that if you take a hard look at NDP governments they are no worse, and generally better, than other parties when it comes to finances.
Meanwhile we are told that conservatives are fiscally responsible. BULLSHIT. As you are seeing in your country, the people who call themselves conservatives spend insanely. They are also responsible for shifting the tax burden disproportionately onto the middle class and working people.
The other lie that the religious right pushes is that separation of church and state should not exist. In your country they've gotten so out of hand that many claim that the United States was meant to be and has always been a Christian country. BULLSHIT. Your founding fathers, many of whom were not Christians, wrote extensively on the importance of keeping a specific religion out of politics. The separation of church and state has become one of the central tenets of democracy in large part because of the emphasis that your founders placed on it.
In Canada the religious right is still pushing the vague falsehoods that your religious miscreants used to make. They say things like, "All of our laws are based on the Bible," and "Canada was meant to be a Christian country." Again, BULLSHIT. Our laws are based in British common law which goes back to before the Romans. Canada wasn't meant to be anything but a supplier of beaver furs and a nice place to fish in the summer.
So why does the oh-so-moral religious right lie so much, Jimmy? You say you go to church, so I assume you read the instruction book. Telling lies is a no-no. So is killing people to enrich yourself.
Tell that to your neo-conservative, bible-thumping friends. They'll call you a communist, but so what?
Oh, and the next time you are watching TV with them and one of those ads with starving children comes on, look at your neo-conservative, Falwell worshipping friends and say, "We did this. Those kids are starving because of our policies."
You and your buddies on the radical right better pray that the atheists are right, Jimmy. If we're wrong and there is a god, then you're all going to hell.
Re: RE: RATIONALIZING TORTURE
Forget liberal or conservative politics and make a survey.
In discussions with your friends who claim that religious values and dogmas determine their response to current political controversy, challenge them to provide the chapter and verse — not from Old Covenant law — but from New Covenant instruction.
Since the ultimate unreachable goal of ever true Christian is to live their life as an imitation of Christ’s, ask them to show what words, spoken (according to the New Testament) by Jesus, form the authority behind their opinions.
Can they do this, or are they blindly following the teachings of some contemporary “holy man” without any rigorous examination of that leader’s teaching in light of the instruction passed down through the Gospels?
You must be both the surveyor and (for yourself) the judge. If, however, they cannot, or will not, rationalize their beliefs to specifically Christian scripture, I would question either their diligence, or their sincerity.
If you were a follower of Islam, I would ask you to perform a similar exercise with The Koran.
Jim,jimmoyer said:
Forget liberal or conservative politics and make a survey.
In discussions with your friends who claim that religious values and dogmas determine their response to current political controversy, challenge them to provide the chapter and verse — not from Old Covenant law — but from New Covenant instruction.
Since the ultimate unreachable goal of ever true Christian is to live their life as an imitation of Christ’s, ask them to show what words, spoken (according to the New Testament) by Jesus, form the authority behind their opinions.
Can they do this, or are they blindly following the teachings of some contemporary “holy man” without any rigorous examination of that leader’s teaching in light of the instruction passed down through the Gospels?
You must be both the surveyor and (for yourself) the judge. If, however, they cannot, or will not, rationalize their beliefs to specifically Christian scripture, I would question either their diligence, or their sincerity.
If you were a follower of Islam, I would ask you to perform a similar exercise with The Koran.
Torture under any circumstances is wrong. Proper questioning should be practiced.
I remember a story about questioning an enemy during the Big One WW11.
Here is an example of a clean interrogation.
Wingate had two prisoners and asked a direct question.
To prisoner 1, "Where are the explosives?"
From Prisoner 1, I don't know.
Action: Pistol shot between the eyes.
To Prisoner 2, "Where are the explosives?"
From Prisoner 2, I'll talk, I'll talk...
Wingate, Pre and during WW11, he was a Military genius in Jungle warfare, but the British Army kept him in low key.
Durgan.
I remember a story about questioning an enemy during the Big One WW11.
Here is an example of a clean interrogation.
Wingate had two prisoners and asked a direct question.
To prisoner 1, "Where are the explosives?"
From Prisoner 1, I don't know.
Action: Pistol shot between the eyes.
To Prisoner 2, "Where are the explosives?"
From Prisoner 2, I'll talk, I'll talk...
Wingate, Pre and during WW11, he was a Military genius in Jungle warfare, but the British Army kept him in low key.
Durgan.
Cheney appeals for torture exemption :roll:
The article mentions this:
Cheney told his audience the United States doesn't engage in torture, these participants added, even though he said the administration needed an exemption from any legislation banning "cruel, inhuman or degrading" treatment in case the president decided one was necessary to prevent a terrorist attack.
Click link at top for article.
The article mentions this:
Cheney told his audience the United States doesn't engage in torture, these participants added, even though he said the administration needed an exemption from any legislation banning "cruel, inhuman or degrading" treatment in case the president decided one was necessary to prevent a terrorist attack.
Click link at top for article.
Cheney is a war criminal. The American people need to recognise that and demand that he be tried for his crimes.
He is a war criminal, and so is the rest of his ilk, they became war criminals the day they decided to skirt, fudge, and play with the geneva convention. Oh I see the geneva convention only applies to other nations...not the united states :roll: :roll:
They are losing that battle in their own country now, Peapod. The war criminal lobby is imploding under the weight of their leaders committing acts of treason at home.
As long as the momentum against the war criminals keeps growing, there is hope that Cheney, Rummy and Bush will live out the rest of their days in a cell under the Hague.
As long as the momentum against the war criminals keeps growing, there is hope that Cheney, Rummy and Bush will live out the rest of their days in a cell under the Hague.
McCain is a good man, all too familiar with torture. There is no excuse for torture anywhere, anytime.