Question concerning the rights of a male victim who impregnates his perpetrator.

Should a male victim be able to declare a foetus a human life starting at conseption?

  • Yes.

    Votes: 4 40.0%
  • No.

    Votes: 5 50.0%
  • Other answer.

    Votes: 1 10.0%

  • Total voters
    10

Serryah

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Actually an interesting question.

IF the man in question was assaulted and IF he had no knowledge of conception then what the woman does... he won't know about.

But.

If he DOES know she conceived and it can be proven he's the father and IF the man wants to have the chance to keep the child and raise it...

Good question. I'm pro-choice and yet in this situation, TBH I'm not sure what the answer is. Forcing a woman to carry an unwanted child is wrong, but in this situation, what about the right of the victim? Personally I do believe this hypothetical father should have a right to say whether he wants a child from this kind of situation or not, at least.
 

Blackleaf

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Oct 9, 2004
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If a woman is pregnant, she has the right to choose. If she's not pregnant, she has the right to choose.

When you get pregnant, your opinion will be worth a sack of dog vomit.

Clear enough?

We're talking about the woman being the perpetrator of a sexual assault here, not the man.

The question being asked is: SHOULD a mother have the right to abort a child without the father's consent if that child came about due to her sexually assaulting the man?

My answer is: NO.

Are you drunk?

Why Are so Many Women Raping Boys? Research into female perpetrated sexual violence - Canadian Association for Equality

So yes, female rape of men is far more common than people might realise.

Now of course I'm aware that just as proving man-on-woman sexual assault beyond a reasonable doubt is extremely difficult, the same would apply in reverse, so in many cases the victim would not be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she raped him and so could not win a criminal case in most situations.

But in the matter of proving sexual assault in a balance of probabilities, that is easier. Since we would not be talking about punishing the mother but simply protecting the rights of the father, then balance if probabilities should be more than enough for that.

The stats are interesting in that link:

“43% of high school boys and young college men reported they had an unwanted sexual experience and of those, 95% said a female acquaintance was the aggressor.”
 

Tecumsehsbones

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I agree with you. However, even if a person should disagree with us on this point, they might agree that at least a woman who sexually coerces or assaults a man forfeits that right without the victim's consent.
DINGDINGDINGDINGDING! There you have it, folks! Machjo is concerned with taking away women's rights. End of.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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DINGDINGDINGDINGDING! There you have it, folks! Machjo is concerned with taking away women's rights. End of.

I never denied I'm pro-life. But will you judge the question on an as hominem attack against me because you disagree with my stance on the right of the fietus in general terms or will you judge the question on its own terms independently of me.

If that not politically feasible, I could even agree to caveats.

For example, he can declare the foetus a human life starting at conception on the condition that he claims sole custody of the child (or at least once the victim reaches the age of maturity if he hasn't already), but that he can sue the perpetrator for child support.

We might even throw in that the parents of the victim can declare the foetus a human life starting at conception too if the victim is under-age.

And again, the victim still needs to prove on a balance of probabilities that the woman did sexually coerce him.

I know cases of men later fighting for visiting rights to a child they conceived while raping a woman. For both men and women victims, I would agree that if he can prove on a balance of probabilities that the other parent had sexually assaulted him and they were not married at the time of the assault, then the victim can deny visiting rights while still suing for child support.

If the sexual assault occurred within a marriage, then beyond a reasonable doubt. Within a marriage, we'd expect a couple to have sex and so if immediately after sex the woman goes to the police with 'proof' of rape because she plans on divorcing him and keep the child, it could be tough.

Yet even if they're not married, she could rape him and claim the opposite, so I'm still in two minds about it.

I guess the child should still have the right to know about the other parent even if that parent is convicted of rape. It's still his parent. But denying visiting rights or child support on a balance of probabilities I'm less certain about. For abortion though, since it is permanent, then I agree with balance of probabilities.
 
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Tecumsehsbones

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I never denied I'm pro-life. But will you judge the question on an as hominem attack against me because you disagree with my stance on the right of the fietus in general terms or will you judge the question on its own terms independently of me.
The motive of the questioner is relevant when the questioner is trying to change the status quo. In your case, the motive is to eliminate abortion rights, however possible, using any tool at hand.

Here's my compromise. I'm perfectly willing to give "fathers" veto rights over abortions. And if the women still want the abortion, it is to be performed in a manner that keeps the embryo alive. The embryo is then inserted into the "father's" abdominal cavity, and we let nature take its course. Surely if the almighty Gawd loves li'l Tater so much, he can work a minor miracle, right?
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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The motive of the questioner is relevant when the questioner is trying to change the status quo. In your case, the motive is to eliminate abortion rights, however possible, using any tool at hand.

Here's my compromise. I'm perfectly willing to give "fathers" veto rights over abortions. And if the women still want the abortion, it is to be performed in a manner that keeps the embryo alive. The embryo is then inserted into the "father's" abdominal cavity, and we let nature take its course. Surely if the almighty Gawd loves li'l Tater so much, he can work a minor miracle, right?

I agree even convicts have rights, but why treat them with kiddie gloves just because it's a woman?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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As it happens, the law already has standards for the treatment of parental rights. You are completely ignorant of those standards, which raises a suspicion that you are uninterested in parental rights (or possibly just really lazy). Ergo, there is reason to believe that your interest is actually something other than parental rights.

I agree even convicts have rights, but why treat them with kiddie gloves just because it's a woman?
I never said convicts have rights, so your "agreement" presumes I said something I did not say.

Ergo, you are a liar.

Have a real nice day now, hear?
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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We're talking about the woman being the perpetrator of a sexual assault here, not the man.

The question being asked is: SHOULD a mother have the right to abort a child without the father's consent if that child came about due to her sexually assaulting the man?

My answer is: NO.



The stats are interesting in that link:

“43% of high school boys and young college men reported they had an unwanted sexual experience and of those, 95% said a female acquaintance was the aggressor.”

And there is no requirement that the woman be physically unattractive or that the man not be straight.

Firstly, there is statutory rape. Secondly, maybe he didn't want sex outside of marriage.

Thirdly, maybe he didn't know her well enough and so wanted to protect himself from unwanted STI's or pregnancy (though might still want to keep the child now that what is done is done).

Fourthly, as pretty as she was, her character was a turn off.

As for the woman:

1. She might be physically stronger.

2. He might be incapacitated somehow.

3. He might fear that if he fights her off too aggressively that he could injure her and so face criminal charges for that.

4. However physically strong he might be, inasmuch as he doesn't the sex, his personality might prevent him from inflicting potential injury on her since he still does not want to injure her and so will limit his options for fighting her off in a safe manner for her.

5. He might not cry out for help out of shame.

6. Even irgasm does not prove consent. The body has a mind of its own.

6. Coerced' concentrated is still sexual assault such as if she tries purposely to arouse him against his will.

All of the above apply to female victims tok of course.

As it happens, the law already has standards for the treatment of parental rights. You are completely ignorant of those standards, which raises a suspicion that you are uninterested in parental rights (or possibly just really lazy). Ergo, there is reason to believe that your interest is actually something other than parental rights.


I never said convicts have rights, so your "agreement" presumes I said something I did not say.

Ergo, you are a liar.

Have a real nice day now, hear?

Do those standards include the right of a victim to the foetus?

As for visiting rights, I know many US states can deny if if proved convincingly that the parent raped the other parent but that that too can be difficult to prove especially if the assault was reported only much later.
 

Machjo

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https://dailynewsmobile.wordpress.com/2015/07/07/woman-who-raped-man-is-being-denied-an-abortion/

Here's an actual case I found online.

We're talking about the woman being the perpetrator of a sexual assault here, not the man.

The question being asked is: SHOULD a mother have the right to abort a child without the father's consent if that child came about due to her sexually assaulting the man?

My answer is: NO.



The stats are interesting in that link:

“43% of high school boys and young college men reported they had an unwanted sexual experience and of those, 95% said a female acquaintance was the aggressor.”

From what I'd read recently, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the women sexual predators had been sexually, physically, or emotionally abused themselves. And I wouldn't be surprised if some of the male victims go on to watch porn, pay for sex, commit sexual assaults or engage in other sexual deviancies themselves.

And so the cycle of violence continues.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Why is it wrong to take away a woman's right to choose if she has committed a crime? why is that right different than other rights taken from convicts?
Because the deprivation of convicts' rights is (or should be) only such deprivation as is consistent with their punishment. And we dealt with that in a case called Eisenstadt, where the court held that a state may not make pregnancy a punishment.

That you would seriously propose that pregnancy should be a punishment (which is what you are proposing, make no mistake) reflects a hatred of women so deep and twisted that one must question whether you are a danger to women.

https://dailynewsmobile.wordpress.com/2015/07/07/woman-who-raped-man-is-being-denied-an-abortion/

Here's an actual case I found online.



From what I'd read recently, I wouldn't be surprised if many of the women sexual predators had been sexually, physically, or emotionally abused themselves. And I wouldn't be surprised if some of the male victims go on to watch porn, pay for sex, commit sexual assaults or engage in other sexual deviancies themselves.

And so the cycle of violence continues.
But if we force them to bear the children, that'll help a lot!
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Because the deprivation of convicts' rights is (or should be) only such deprivation as is consistent with their punishment. And we dealt with that in a case called Eisenstadt, where the court held that a state may not make pregnancy a punishment.

That you would seriously propose that pregnancy should be a punishment (which is what you are proposing, make no mistake) reflects a hatred of women so deep and twisted that one must question whether you are a danger to women.


But if we force them to bear the children, that'll help a lot!

No. Imprisonment is the punishment if proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Pregnancy is just a natural consequence of her actions, nothing to do with any personal hatred against her.

She must carry the baby for nine months as a consequence if her actions. He must carry the sexual assault for life through no fault of his own.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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No. Imprisonment is the punishment if proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Pregnancy is just a natural consequence of her actions, nothing to do with any personal hatred against her.

She must carry the baby for nine months as a consequence if her actions. He must carry the sexual assault for life through no fault of his own.
That they let a person as deranged as you vote is perhaps the most eloquent condemnation of democracy.
 

Machjo

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Because the deprivation of convicts' rights is (or should be) only such deprivation as is consistent with their punishment. And we dealt with that in a case called Eisenstadt, where the court held that a state may not make pregnancy a punishment.

That you would seriously propose that pregnancy should be a punishment (which is what you are proposing, make no mistake) reflects a hatred of women so deep and twisted that one must question whether you are a danger to women.


But if we force them to bear the children, that'll help a lot!

Not us. The victim.

In this case it's not a matter of punishment but of the rights of the victim.

Heck, maybe even exchange that for imprisonment.

And yes, statistics show that sexual predators are often so as a result of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse as children or later. There is a cause and effect there and so we can be sympathetic. But that does not excuse the assault.

As an example, a pedophiles is statistically probably a victim himself. But still, it is our responsibility to make help available and the pedophiles to seek help. We can sympathize with his condition, but we can't excuse his actions. I would never judge a non,-criminal pedophiles, but still expect him to seek help before he hurts someone.

The same applies here. I can sympathize with a person, man or woman, who feels compelled to watch porn, pay for or sell sex for sexual gratification, commit sexual assault or commit other such deviant acts. I remember reading one statistic that showed that most men who pay for sex have often suffered some form of abuse as children.

However, feeling a compulsion to act and to act are two different things. If he feels such a compulsion, it's his obligation to seek help, not ours to permit and excuse his actions.

That they let a person as deranged as you vote is perhaps the most eloquent condemnation of democracy.

Ad hominem.

By the way, since I'm anonymous on this board, I am a man who had suffered sexual coercion in a severely emotionally abusive relationship with a woman many years ago. She'd even threatened suicide once with a knife pointed at her chest when I wanted to break the relationship up.

Ironically, she is the one who eventually broke the relationship off once I had become suicidal myself. I do know she had suffered trauma herself before having met me, and that might have played a role in that. It becomes clear how trans-generational trauma can occur.

In my case, I'd already suffered trauma before having even met her. I'll spare the details. But yes there was an emotional vulnerability on both sides. Birds if a feather I suppose.

In my case, she never got pregnant, and of course each case is different.

But in cases where a woman clearly assaults a man sexually, he is not emotionally dependent or similarly vulnerable, he is aware that that is legally an assault and can prove it and reports it right away, she becomes pregnant, and he wants to keep the baby, he should have that right.

From my personal experience, I'm well aware of how emotionally violently a woman can abuse a man or coerce him into sex under the right conditions.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
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That you would seriously propose that pregnancy should be a punishment (which is what you are proposing, make no mistake) reflects a hatred of women so deep and twisted that one must question whether you are a danger to women.

Bwahahaha...I haven't proposed anything. I just asked a question. Before you get your knickers more twisted than a white supremacist at a Trump rally, I am not only pro choice (I know that fact is irrelevant but it seems to matter to you) but I think this notion is ludicrous anyway because the child would be aborted long before the woman would be convicted of a crime. The only way it could ever work is if we allowed punitive action against those that are merely accused of criminal acts (which is something I vehemently opposed)
 

Machjo

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Bwahahaha...I haven't proposed anything. I just asked a question. Before you get your knickers more twisted than a white supremacist at a Trump rally, I am not only pro choice (I know that fact is irrelevant but it seems to matter to you) but I think this notion is ludicrous anyway because the child would be aborted long before the woman would be convicted of a crime. The only way it could ever work is if we allowed punitive action against those that are merely accused of criminal acts (which is something I vehemently opposed)

If you read the link above, the woman was in prison, so could be effectively prevented from having an abortion since the prison would need to grant it. I don't know how the case ended but the article suggested she's probably win and so be able to abort. It appeared to have been written before a verdict was made.

But that the man git a lawyer to try to prevent her still made an interesting case.
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
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If you read the link above, the woman was in prison, so could be effectively prevented from having an abortion since the prison would need to grant it. I don't know how the case ended but the article suggested she's probably win and so be able to abort. It appeared to have been written before a verdict was made.

But that the man git a lawyer to try to prevent her still made an interesting case.
Whether she is in prison or not is irrelevant.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Bwahahaha...I haven't proposed anything. I just asked a question. Before you get your knickers more twisted than a white supremacist at a Trump rally, I am not only pro choice (I know that fact is irrelevant but it seems to matter to you) but I think this notion is ludicrous anyway because the child would be aborted long before the woman would be convicted of a crime. The only way it could ever work is if we allowed punitive action against those that are merely accused of criminal acts (which is something I vehemently opposed)
That's fair. I was kinda cranked up by Machjo's latest not very well veiled attack on women. So, withdrawn with apologies.

Not us. The victim.

In this case it's not a matter of punishment but of the rights of the victim.

Heck, maybe even exchange that for imprisonment.

And yes, statistics show that sexual predators are often so as a result of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse as children or later. There is a cause and effect there and so we can be sympathetic. But that does not excuse the assault.

As an example, a pedophiles is statistically probably a victim himself. But still, it is our responsibility to make help available and the pedophiles to seek help. We can sympathize with his condition, but we can't excuse his actions. I would never judge a non,-criminal pedophiles, but still expect him to seek help before he hurts someone.

The same applies here. I can sympathize with a person, man or woman, who feels compelled to watch porn, pay for or sell sex for sexual gratification, commit sexual assault or commit other such deviant acts. I remember reading one statistic that showed that most men who pay for sex have often suffered some form of abuse as children.

However, feeling a compulsion to act and to act are two different things. If he feels such a compulsion, it's his obligation to seek help, not ours to permit and excuse his actions.



Ad hominem.

By the way, since I'm anonymous on this board, I am a man who had suffered sexual coercion in a severely emotionally abusive relationship with a woman many years ago. She'd even threatened suicide once with a knife pointed at her chest when I wanted to break the relationship up.

Ironically, she is the one who eventually broke the relationship off once I had become suicidal myself. I do know she had suffered trauma herself before having met me, and that might have played a role in that. It becomes clear how trans-generational trauma can occur.

In my case, I'd already suffered trauma before having even met her. I'll spare the details. But yes there was an emotional vulnerability on both sides. Birds if a feather I suppose.

In my case, she never got pregnant, and of course each case is different.

But in cases where a woman clearly assaults a man sexually, he is not emotionally dependent or similarly vulnerable, he is aware that that is legally an assault and can prove it and reports it right away, she becomes pregnant, and he wants to keep the baby, he should have that right.

From my personal experience, I'm well aware of how emotionally violently a woman can abuse a man or coerce him into sex under the right conditions.
Y'know, you woman haters really need to get your thoughts straight. Sex, whether consensual, forced, coerced, conned, whatever, and reproduction are two different things, with different legal stati, and different rules and standards.

Your attempt to conflate them is just another thinly veiled attempt to reduce women to breeding cows and domestic slaves.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
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Should a man who impregnates a woman who sexually coerced or assaulted him be allowed to declare the foetus a human life if he can prove on a balance of probabilities that the mother had impregnated herself while sexually coercing or assaulting him?

When you think about it, he would already be a victim of sexual coercion or assault. Then the fact that the perpetrator became pregnant is simply further victimization. So should the perpetrator be allowed to abort without the victim's consent unless it is medically necessary to do so?

2 yes and 1 no. The pro-choice crowd won't like that stat. :)
Are you suggesting that he should be able to force her to have an abortion?