Quebec, the Country

[researchok]

Numure, Marc...those were excellent posts. I read and reread them, not so much for content, but for nuance as well.

In particular Marc, your responsse was well thought out and almost passionate. Allow me to respond in english, as for me, like you it's easier. Feel free to post en francais-- my writing in that language is tortured at best!-- malheuresement, je ne parle pas encore courrament....mais je peut lire..etc.

Allons....The national aspirations that you both refer to are at once both uniquely Quebecois and universal.

To be frank, I don't know how different, for example, how different in policy an independant Quebec would be. Free societies, as a rule, all maintain fundamental values- of freedom, expression, rights etc. There are diferences in economic policies, social policies, etc, but overall, free societies are remakably similiar in the foundations of freedom.

Now, please understand-- I'm not opining on the merits of an independant Quebec- I'm just examining the 'crystal ball', so to speak.

In looking back, I can honestly say the chances for 'success' however you define it, of an independant Quebec are probably better now than in years gone by. I attribute that not to language laws or 'independant' thought or politics, but rather to the fact that after so many years of debate and political turmoil, things have settled down.

The fears of both the 'pur laine' ( I know thats not politically correct in som ecircles, but I love that expression!) and the non francophones community have subsided. Both sides are tiring of the 'dirty pool' theyve eached played. Each side recognizes the other is not the 'devil' as promulgated by the likes of Reggie Chartrand or the slew of reactionary Anglos.

I base my observations on the progress the Quebecois have made internally. The Anglo community can no longer say with any credibilty that Qubecois cant compete. There was a time-- not that long ago-- that the argument had merit. Not pleasant to hear, but true. Now of course, as I said, that argument wont wash.

On a personal note, if were pushing an 'free' Quebec, I would make the issue one of freedom for all. I think for non 'pur laine', there is a disconnect-- that somehow a free Quebec would limit their freedoms. If they were reassured-- not as a political secondary plank-- but a primary driving force, there would be much more support for the idea. In other words, if non francophone groups believed that THEIR lives would improve, the natural instinct for betterment would prevail. I believe i is stil a fear of loss that permeates the non francophone society.

Anyway, this is a great topic-- Id like to pursue it if you guys are into it.

 

[Marc]

Each side recognizes the other is not the 'devil'

this is not very true. there's plenty of exemple of ROXC newpaper diabolising the nationalist mouvement. In other word, we cannot forget the liberal fear campaing of 1980 and 1995. This is a shame for democraty and I hope, if this debate comes back again, that you guys will watch them really hard.

I would make the issue one of freedom for all

It have been done. And it will be done. but we cannot control the fear campaign.

If they were reassured-- not as a political secondary plank-- but a primary driving force, there would be much more support for the idea

This is on the good way if we base ourselve on the current election result. The montreal minority didn't give the majority liberal used to have. Alot of not -pur-laine- leader give their vote to the bloc! the montreal black leader give his vote to Rebello, lapierre's opponent in outremont, a native leader named Ottawa (irony) say the souveregnity is the best thing that could happen, and ted moses used to like duceppe real hard!

with the lection of Maka Kotto (in my circonscription, a traditional liberal circonscription), he'll become the first african to the parliament. We also elected a native. I was at the -rassemblement- of the BQ in montreal th 28, and the 1000 people aprox was so fucking happy when the announced those 2 élections. In fact, we were more happyu about those two than Duceppe's one.

I hope we can convince those minority to built a better future for us.[/code]

 

[researchok]

Each side recognizes the other is not the 'devil'

this is not very true. there's plenty of exemple of ROXC newpaper diabolising the nationalist mouvement. In other word, we cannot forget the liberal fear campaing of 1980 and 1995. This is a shame for democraty and I hope, if this debate comes back again, that you guys will watch them really hard.

I would make the issue one of freedom for all

It have been done. And it will be done. but we cannot control the fear campaign.

If they were reassured-- not as a political secondary plank-- but a primary driving force, there would be much more support for the idea

This is on the good way if we base ourselve on the current election result. The montreal minority didn't give the majority liberal used to have. Alot of not -pur-laine- leader give their vote to the bloc! the montreal black leader give his vote to Rebello, lapierre's opponent in outremont, a native leader named Ottawa (irony) say the souveregnity is the best thing that could happen, and ted moses used to like duceppe real hard!

with the lection of Maka Kotto (in my circonscription, a traditional liberal circonscription), he'll become the first african to the parliament. We also elected a native. I was at the -rassemblement- of the BQ in montreal th 28, and the 1000 people aprox was so fucking happy when the announced those 2 élections. In fact, we were more happyu about those two than Duceppe's one.

I hope we can convince those minority to built a better future for us.[/code]

I think, Marc, you may have misinterpreted my point.

The fact is, both sides are guilty-- when Parizeau gets up and blames 'ethnics' for an undesired outcome-- as if that and that alone is the cause of all the ills-- the effect is the same on non 'pur laines' as anyone painting the seperatistes as the artchitects of disaster, waiting to pounce on the poor anglos. In other words, it's a cycle of mistrust. Regardless of the politics of the moment, both sides have to come to understand that neither is the devil and neither will 'rape' each other. I truly believe thats a fundamental truth.

Your right of course, when you say that the fear campaign can't be controlled. I do think however, that it is the responsibility of both sides not to engage in the fear campaign and to clearly distance themselves from it. I think it is imperative for all. If not adhered to, it is inevitable that 'plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme'-- which goes nowhere.

As for black or other minority positions of leadership, thats a good thing, regardless of political affiliation. The more varied and vigorous debate, the better.

Lastly, Im in complete agreement with you. Agai, regardless of the outcome, when minorities believe that patriotism-- of any stripe-- will benefit and protect them, you have a truly vibrant democracy.

This is a great topic!

 

[researchok]

Marc, to be clear-- when Parizeau made his remarks, he was of course, right-- in a statistical sense.

Had he said instead, or in addition to his remarks, 'We failed to clearly address the fear of minorities of our beliefs and intentions and our committment to their well being', he remarks would have gone a long away in the anglo and minority communities.

Make sense to you?

 

[Marc]

Yup!Yup!

Parizeau should not have told that.

That said, I want to rehabilitate Jacques Parizeau on his forum. The actual state of quebec is basicly Parizeau's work.

HE convinced the american to give money to René Lévesque to nationalise the electricity
HE created the SGF
HE created the Caisse de placement et dépot

Jacques Parizeau is probably the greatest man that ever lived in quebec, He only made one litte sentence that will follow him until the rest of his life. But everyone, be honest, and forgive to the greatest economist of the history of Canada.

The key of soveignity will pass by those new quebecers! We francophone are too divised to make something big. The biggest problem we would is definalty the federal fear campaign. But that's not what will discourage me to try it. It's a do or die the next time. The actual federalism is killing quebec nation little by little.