Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada

[s_lone]

RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

The issue of Quebec seperatist movement certainly is not irrelevant. The threat that Quebec might seperate has been lingering above the federal government for about 30 years and it has forced politicians to be very careful about their actions, knowing very well that whenever Quebecers are angry, seperation becomes an issue again... Quebecers have a quite powerful weight in the shaping of Canada. If Canada had joined the US for the war in Irak, I can assure you that seperatism would have flared up dangerously in Quebec. Presently, Quebecers are very unsatisfied with their Liberal (federalist) government. The PQ (seperatist party and official opposition) is presently trying to actualize its politics and principles. Luckily for the federalists, the PQ is slowed down by internal conflicts concerning leadership and "how-to-seperate" issues.

IF the PQ manages to give itself a new image that younger generations can connect to, I won't be surprised if we have a third referendum coming up. Probably between 2008 and 2010. And results could be surprising... The seperatist movement can gain strength as easily as it can lose some... If the PQ fails to rejuvenate itself, the next provincial elections will be quite exciting because Qubecers would be stuck to choose between the hated Liberal Party and an outdated PQ. They might choose neither. The ADQ could possibly gain lots of support but their is a common suspicion about them (they were incoherent in the last election campaign...), they still have work to do to connect with the population. A new political party (fusion of small left-wing parties) is presently taking form called Option Citoyenne (Citizen option). Its leader is a woman and from what I heard of her, I think she will connect quite well with the values of Quebecers. And the fact that she could gain support from WOMEN is certainly not to deny... (A recent poll said that more than 90% of Quebecers would vote for a woman as prime minister...). This new party is still in the process of deciding if they want to seperate or not. Whatever happens, I believe Quebec is heading for exciting political changes. If we choose not to seperate, it could actually be pressure and frustration coming from the rest of Canada that would cause the nation to reconsider the nature of our federation. English Canadians (especially in the west) might end up sick and tired of seeing Quebecers constantly confronting Ottawa and getting a "special status". The resistant attitude of Quebecers is not about to stop, whether Quebec seperates or not, and it will continue to have a strong influence on the future of Canada.

 

[EagleSmack]

Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

The issue of Quebec seperatist movement certainly is not irrelevant. The threat that Quebec might seperate has been lingering above the federal government for about 30 years and it has forced politicians to be very careful about their actions, knowing very well that whenever Quebecers are angry, seperation becomes an issue again... Quebecers have a quite powerful weight in the shaping of Canada. If Canada had joined the US for the war in Irak, I can assure you that seperatism would have flared up dangerously in Quebec. Presently, Quebecers are very unsatisfied with their Liberal (federalist) government. The PQ (seperatist party and official opposition) is presently trying to actualize its politics and principles. Luckily for the federalists, the PQ is slowed down by internal conflicts concerning leadership and "how-to-seperate" issues.

IF the PQ manages to give itself a new image that younger generations can connect to, I won't be surprised if we have a third referendum coming up. Probably between 2008 and 2010. And results could be surprising... The seperatist movement can gain strength as easily as it can lose some... If the PQ fails to rejuvenate itself, the next provincial elections will be quite exciting because Qubecers would be stuck to choose between the hated Liberal Party and an outdated PQ. They might choose neither. The ADQ could possibly gain lots of support but their is a common suspicion about them (they were incoherent in the last election campaign...), they still have work to do to connect with the population. A new political party (fusion of small left-wing parties) is presently taking form called Option Citoyenne (Citizen option). Its leader is a woman and from what I heard of her, I think she will connect quite well with the values of Quebecers. And the fact that she could gain support from WOMEN is certainly not to deny... (A recent poll said that more than 90% of Quebecers would vote for a woman as prime minister...). This new party is still in the process of deciding if they want to seperate or not. Whatever happens, I believe Quebec is heading for exciting political changes. If we choose not to seperate, it could actually be pressure and frustration coming from the rest of Canada that would cause the nation to reconsider the nature of our federation. English Canadians (especially in the west) might end up sick and tired of seeing Quebecers constantly confronting Ottawa and getting a "special status". The resistant attitude of Quebecers is not about to stop, whether Quebec seperates or not, and it will continue to have a strong influence on the future of Canada.

S_Lone... this is very interesting. So it appears that the separatist movement is much bigger than I was led to believe but some.

And 2008 and 2010 are right around the corner. What sort of atmosphere will another Separatist Referendum build in Canada?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

Remember that is an analysis that many don't agree with, Eaglesmack. It is also built on political fact instead of a misreading of Canadian history, as you were doing.

If the Conservatives under Stephen Harper or anyone like him get in, you can pretty much count on a new referendum. If Stephen Harper gets in with a majority, count Quebec gone. I think that's likely a pretty smart move too...get out while the getting is good.

Quebec's wealth is built on hydro power and the US will keep buying it whether Quebec is a part of Canada or not. So will Ontario. The biggest problem Quebec will face will be native issues. That is the one thing that could turn into a shooting war.

 

[EagleSmack]

Hey I am just trying to learn. I am not close minded.

This really throws that unity question to and fro. You know Canada as ONE. It seems like there is a huge culture gap and that has built separatism. An "IDENTITY" thing or lack thereof.

I bet we will buy some of that hydro-power still. I'm sure our money will be still good there.

 

[s_lone]

Reverend B. is right in pointing out that my analysis is one that many don't agree on. He is also right in saying that a solid Conservative victory would be a major threat in Canadian unity. As for the native issue, it would indeed be a very complicated puzzle to solve...

My prediction of a referendum between 2008-2010 has a bit of wishful thinking I admit. But it's still a fairly realist prediction. It must be remembered that this seperation issue depends on many many factors and opinions tend to change fast on that issue... How will Canada-US relationships evolve? How will Canada's role, power and image evolve throughout the world? How will world politics evolve? International events will probably unfold at a growing speed and by 2010, tensions could be pretty high... It is very possible that Quebecers figure it would be wiser to stick around with their good old Canadian friends if ever the threat of a 3rd world war becomes real.

One thing to remember, Canadians should not take for granted that Quebec is in Canada for good.

And if there is a 3rd referendum, the atmosphere will be quite vicious. Probably no violence because Canadians and Quebecers have always been peaceful (with little exceptions...) ... If it becomes violent, it is truly a sign of the apocalypse! hehehe...

 

[Reverend Blair]

It must be remembered that this seperation issue depends on many many factors and opinions tend to change fast on that issue... How will Canada-US relationships evolve? How will Canada's role, power and image evolve throughout the world? How will world politics evolve? International events will probably unfold at a growing speed and by 2010, tensions could be pretty high.

Quebec has, more often than not, gotten its way on international issues (Kyoto, BMD, Iraq) though, S_lone. A lot of that is because Quebec opinion not that far removed from Canadian opinion in general. Those of us who support the same international programs also depend on Quebec's influence...the relationship goes both ways.

If I was living in Quebec, I'd likely be voting BQ federally and PQ provincially because the NDP aren't a force there. That being said, I wouldn't be voting for separation in a referendum.

 

[EagleSmack]

Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada

Reverend B. is right in pointing out that my analysis is one that many don't agree on. He is also right in saying that a solid Conservative victory would be a major threat in Canadian unity. As for the native issue, it would indeed be a very complicated puzzle to solve...

My prediction of a referendum between 2008-2010 has a bit of wishful thinking I admit. But it's still a fairly realist prediction. It must be remembered that this seperation issue depends on many many factors and opinions tend to change fast on that issue... How will Canada-US relationships evolve? How will Canada's role, power and image evolve throughout the world? How will world politics evolve? International events will probably unfold at a growing speed and by 2010, tensions could be pretty high... It is very possible that Quebecers figure it would be wiser to stick around with their good old Canadian friends if ever the threat of a 3rd world war becomes real.

One thing to remember, Canadians should not take for granted that Quebec is in Canada for good.

And if there is a 3rd referendum, the atmosphere will be quite vicious. Probably no violence because Canadians and Quebecers have always been peaceful (with little exceptions...) ... If it becomes violent, it is truly a sign of the apocalypse! hehehe...

Got you s-lone.

One thing I noticed you said something along the lines of "Quebecers sticking with their Canadian friends." Do folks from Quebec feel separate from Canadians? For example, I see that statement and I think of someone saying

"I'm a Floridian not an American" (Although I've never heard that before)

Am I off base? I could be.

Does the rest of Canada take advantage of Quebec as you said?

This is interesting stuff.

 

[jackd]

Eagle:
A very large portion of Quebecers will identify themselfs first as being a "Quebecois", then if necessary or useful, as a Canadian.
I would have a hard time right now to find a Canadian flag flying in Quebec(except on some official buildings) but I see Quebec flag all the time. Even on our Parliament Building in Quebec, The Quebec flag flies high while the Canadian flag is barely visible if it even exists.. This, even with a Federalist provincial government.
I know (for having lived there) Floridians would never say they are "Floridians"

 

[EagleSmack]

Eagle:
A very large portion of Quebecers will identify themselfs first as being a "Quebecois", then if necessary or useful, as a Canadian.
I would have a hard time right now to find a Canadian flag flying in Quebec(except on some official buildings) but I see Quebec flag all the time. Even on our Parliament Building in Quebec, The Quebec flag flies high while the Canadian flag is barely visible if it even exists.. This, even with a Federalist provincial government.
I know (for having lived there) Floridians would never say they are "Floridians"

So if they are in the minority... why does the Quebec flag fly in more prominent places than the Canadian flag?

It sounds like it is really divided up there... at least in Quebec. How big is that Province in relation to the others?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

Texas isn't that different, EagleSmack. Maybe you should have used it as an example?

 

[EagleSmack]

Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

Texas isn't that different, EagleSmack. Maybe you should have used it as an example?

Texans do fly the Texas flag. But guess what, here in Massachusetts my neighbor flies the Mass Flag too! But not in the way that you put it. You would also never hear of a Texan saying that he Texan over American. I was in the Marines with many Texans and never heard that once.

But hey... if it helps your argument... who cares about truth! lol


From listening to s_lone, it seems like the Quebec flag flies in more prominent places AND he says that the Canadian Flag at time cannot be seen. THAT is a big rift. I am surprised it is not addressed by Canadians.

 

[Reverend Blair]

You would also never hear of a Texan saying that he Texan over American. I was in the Marines with many Texans and never heard that once.

I've heard Texans say that very thing, that's why I used it as an example. I've also heard people from your deep south say similar things...like they've never accepted losing the Civil War. Politically the US is presently more divided than Canada.

 

[EagleSmack]

You would also never hear of a Texan saying that he Texan over American. I was in the Marines with many Texans and never heard that once.

I've heard Texans say that very thing, that's why I used it as an example. I've also heard people from your deep south say similar things...like they've never accepted losing the Civil War. Politically the US is presently more divided than Canada.

At one time I would have agreed with you but after reading the posts of some Canadians about the issue on separatism and Quebec I have learned that things are much more divided than some people on this board try to portray.

I see and understand your reasoning to deflect this to a USA thing. The truth can hurt especially coming from your fellow countrymen. But after reading what they are saying "countrymen" maybe to strong and they would object.

I am sure that if you attend a Civil War Re-enactment you will find some of those folks dressed in Gray that speak like that.

But wow... a whole Province trying to separate and coming close to doing so! And now there is talk about them trying to pass another one!

That is serious business. Nothing like that going on down here.

 

[EagleSmack]

Eagle:
A very large portion of Quebecers will identify themselfs first as being a "Quebecois", then if necessary or useful, as a Canadian.
I would have a hard time right now to find a Canadian flag flying in Quebec(except on some official buildings) but I see Quebec flag all the time. Even on our Parliament Building in Quebec, The Quebec flag flies high while the Canadian flag is barely visible if it even exists.. This, even with a Federalist provincial government.
I know (for having lived there) Floridians would never say they are "Floridians"

So if they are in the minority... why does the Quebec flag fly in more prominent places than the Canadian flag?

It sounds like it is really divided up there... at least in Quebec. How big is that Province in relation to the others?

As I was saying... before someone tried to make it a USA thing. <shaking head>

Anybody have an answer on this?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

I was just trying to put it in terms you might have an outside chance of understanding, Eaglesmack. Apparently I was wasting my time.

 

[EagleSmack]

Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

I was just trying to put it in terms you might have an outside chance of understanding, Eaglesmack. Apparently I was wasting my time.

.... and off topic.

As I said, Texans are prevalent in the Marines as are a lot of Southerners. They were Americans first.

 

[jackd]

Eagle:
Some answers to your earlier questions:
The Province of Quebec represents 15.5% of the Canadian total area. Quebec is (in sq.mi) larger than Texas.
Quebec Population: 7,6million or 24% of the total canadian population.
Re Flag: You need to understand that the flag thing in Canada (and in Quebec) is no where near what is seen south of the border.
It is not uncommon to see big flags flying on every second house in the U.S, with all the ceremonial it requires (light the flag at nigh, do not leave a flag in the rain, the flag should never touch the ground, do not throw an old flag in the garbage, and so on with the pages after pages of flag etiquette.........no so in Canada.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Quebec shouldn't sepa

No, the Texans in the Marines are. If you poll the Quebecois in the Canadian Forces you'll get much the same reaction.

 

[s_lone]

When Jean Chrétien (former prime minister) decided not to join the US on the war in Irak, Quebecers suddenly felt a lot more Canadian... Jackd said it, most Quebecers define themselves first as Quebecois and then, depending on the context, if it suits them or not, as Canadian... It would be fair to say that we are kind of opportunists... A bit flip-floppy too...

Reverend Blair, If I was living anywhere else in Canada, I would most likely vote for the NPD. I often wonder what would happen if Quebecers decided to massively vote for the NPD. It would really change everything in Canadian politics... would be quite interesting...The Bloc gained impressive support because of the sponsership scandal... They were kind of lucky on this one.

 

[S-Ranger]

Re: RE: Quebec shouldn't separate from Canada

French is forced upon you?

I'm from Ontario and of French desent, but raised an Anglo. I could only wish someone would force French on me so I could learn the language.

I'm also from Ontario and French is manditory from grade 1 through 9. If I remember correctly, even in Junior Kinegarden and Senior Kinegarden they "taught" you French.

Remember correctly? I'm 40 and it was only taught from gade 7 up to grade 9 when it became an optional course in grade 10. Maybe 11, I can't remember either, I slept through most French clases along with everyone else. Are you sure you're from Ontario? If I can remember it starting in grade 7 then anyone much younger whenever it apparently started in Junion Kindergarten, would remember.

But then again; Ontario is a very big place. With "Canada" listed as a location and the below about "resources," the usual "Canadian" view of "the country" ... that resources mean anything when Southern Ontario and Southwest Quebec have over half of the population/markets of the Canadas and generate up to 70% of federal revenues; due to knowledge-based, research, new developmen, high-value services and speciality manufacturing; part of the North American (Northeastern) manufacturing and knowledge-based heratland, not Outer "Canada" with its supply, farmets, fishers, lumberjacks, miners in very sparse markets pawning off raw commodities, and jobs/economies/tax bases in the process.

I think if Quebec separated it would be bad for them. They definately won't have good relations with Canada, there goes one trading partner

Southern Ontario and Southwest Quebec, the Windsor-Quebec City corridor, are the only trading partners in the Canadas that show up on any radar scope that matters in North America. The rest of the Ontarios and Quebecs can be dumped at any time, and are going to be along with the rest of the Outer Canadas, so that we can keep 100% of our taxes for the first time ever and the rest can pay their real debts and bills for the first time ever. And try to deal with unemployment insurance, let alone paying for your own law enforcement from top to bottom, bottom to top, and everything else.

And there goes tens of billions of dollars in expenses for this region, for Toronto alone, in exchange for paying less for supply along with the U.S. -- and actually being able to build our infrastructure up, repair it first after over a decade of neglect due to insane deals like Newfoundland&Labrador and Nova Scotia just got, over Alberta, which pays over a billion dollars less in taxes, never to be seen again, the ones that matter though they can't get their numbers straight, than the City of Toronto proper, not GTA/greater Toronto area, just one city hall of over 400 in the Ontarios, pays out in taxes that are never seen again; minus the $1.4 billion a year that disappears into the Ontario government never to be seen again, along with the Ontario and confederate feds downloading their own bills and expenses onto Toronto city hall and just about every city hall in Southern Ontario.

Once "Quebec" and "Onario" are properly structured, dumping Outer Canada including most of the Ontarios and Quebecs, we'll be the usual. The largest trading partners in the Canadas and the largest trading partners by far with the U.S. -- in commerce not tonnage or bulk of natural resources being handed away for no apparent reason.

They would have to create a new dollar which would definately not start out as a high worth dollar. Another thing is resources; what would they trade? Quebec alone wouldn't have sufficient resources to sell to make a profit.

No, actually you'll have to create a new dollar. We can't afford to be in an economic or political union with the Outer Canadas anymore. They're totally separate countries and one fiscal policy/central bank, totally dysfunctional 'federa" systems and structures and a sngle exchange rate screws up our investors, completely different economies, socio-economics, politics, everything.

So the rest gets a central bank/currency/fiscal policy based on what it does -- exporting raw commodities and all the jobs and spin-off jobs and new markets/investment and everything else along with it, likke some third-world nothing.

And it's all you'll be, ready for lots more exploitation, without the real economies of the real Canada: which works out well for both of us. inner Canada and the U.S. Aside from keeping tens of billions more tax dollars in the Windsor-Quebec City corridor where they belong, finally repairing and building up the infrastructure we're capable of building up, while paying our own debts off for a change, only our own bills for the first time ever, to attract more and more investment, create tens of thousands more jobs and markets, well it's quite a list of benefits, we'll also pay less for supply and will have fiscal policies that actually make sense.

Yours can go up and down like ... well, like the price of raw commodities exports. And the new Republic of Quebec (quite old actually; southwest. Very southwest) won't have to worry about Mandarin, Arabic, Punjabi, etc., and we won't have to worry about French: in the new (quite old actually) Republic of Ontario -- south. Very south. Like unlless you're in the London area, Toronto area, possibly the Barrie area due to the 400, but it can wait, we'll see, Ottawa-Hull area, the 401 on south.

The rest will pay access fees to use the 401 and anything south of it. In Ontario. What Montreal decides to pull, only production, no supply, tourism if it wants Quebec City, it can pay for Autoroute 20 and its portion of the 401. How the new/old Quebec deals with its user fees/taxation to uses its area/infrastructure will be up to it.

We're going to pay farmers in specific areas up to five times the subsidies they currently get, balanced with what American farmers get, without all of the handouts the usual Outer Canadas get, probably pay for their law enforcement as well, with re-structuring so that everything we need is being grown/ranched, the best equipment in the world, they'lll be truly appreciated for the first time since the invention of cities.

But will still have their own currency so we pay less for supply and they can export and kill anything else in the Canadas for being teamed up with Southern Ontario, the most successful region by light years in the Canadas and one of the most in North Americas.

And aside from our hard-working farmers, only Southwest Quebec is capable of dealing with the economies of Southern Ontario in this "country." And it'll be made an offer it can't refuse.

Money talks. Cow and horse and sheep and yak and chicken and rooster and pig dung walk. Though we might sustain some jobs up there if we don't create a better fertilizer ourselves. And you can keep stinking up towns beyond belief, with sh*t all over the place.

Then you can all find out that your farming, forestry, minining (with the technology of others), fishery, raw commodities "industries" with no markets, no tax bases to speak of, have held you all back for the last hundred of so years. And maybe even do something about it for once, figuring out that lots of things can be done with raw commodities/marterials other than exporting them.