Por Que ? Why ? IRAQ SURGE

[jimmoyer]

Oy veh.

Lack of a rebuttal is no proof you're right. So never assume to take it that way.
It's too convenient. It becomes too much about whether you are right and not whether it is truly the truth. Same for me. If you don't exactly rebutt my arguments (and you haven't yet) in
the form and manner I require, I should not consider your lack of rebuttal ever to be proof
of my being right.

It's a weak way and a wrong way to verify.

I don't have all the time in the world, but I'll get around to it. I'm doing this on the fly.
I'm a fast typer.

Also, lighten up a little, geeeezowheeezie.

You sound quite intelligent and informed and as biased as I am, which makes for
good spirited debate.

Shalom, hasta luego.

Will return. And I am trying to lighten up the discourse, only because it's nicer, not for
any stupid purpose of avoiding your truth.

 

[jimmoyer]

Of course you are right darkbeaver...
---------------------------------------uttered by lieexpsr---------------------------------------

LOL !!!

Of course it's even more frightening when I begin to share the darkness of Darkbeaver
about Iraq.

 

[MikeyDB]

Interesting isn't it how Americans on Canadian Content firstly declare ..."The sickness of Canadian Anti-Americanism...then wail about their tarnished image ...then defend their war in Iraq and their global behavior for decades with appeals to "brotherhood and moms apple pie"..

No nation forced America into the mess it's in you people did that on your own.

Have the balls to own it or shut the fqk up about it.

 

[jimmoyer]

No nation forced America into the mess it's in you people did that on your own.

Have the balls to own it or shut the fqk up about it.
-------------------------------------------------------------------MikeyDB--------------------------------

Hey MikeyDB.....I don't care about having balls.

We screwed up.

Legacy of pain for many.

And when we leave it will be a safe haven for training camps against the West.

Our present to you and the world.

It's not good.

 

[lieexpsr]

Well said jimmoyer. I certainly don't mind giving credit where credit is due. But it's not enough to just admit that your country screwed up. Nor is it completely accurate to say that you screwed up. To say that you screwed up could be suggestilng that you were misled by bad intelligence to invade Iraq. I don't accept that notion at all, as you should be aware by now. I believe that the destruction of Iraq was well planned beginning with the Gulf War. That has been m whole thrust here, which I'm beginning to think you are falling into step with to some degree.

In case there is any confusion at all, my opinion is that it is imperative that the U.S. maintain control over M.E. oil resources. And beyond that it's my opinion that that is the reason the U.S. still supports it's ME Zionist proxy, regardless of how much pain it is causing the people of your country. If there was nothing at stake the people of Israel would soon solve the ongoing problem satisfactorily for all parties and the Zionists would be put in their place as a rabid minority and a impediment to peace.

 

[darkbeaver]

Lieexpsr; I cannot see what will prevent Iran from being attacked, Russia has begun to make it's play to stop the attack which they see as imminent. India, Russia, Pakistan and Iran are close to agreement
on gas deals there are many reports detailing the American attempts to stall these agreements. As you believe in the long term nature of the American conquest of the region so do I. I cannot see anyway to stop this conquest short of war. Failure to complete this conquest will mean the unthinkable to Americans, I believe the stakes are high enough for us to see the use of nukes in this theatre and because of that an expanded conflict in the region.
Many believe that an abandonment of the region by America will lead to growth of forces intent on eventual invasion of the western world, in my humble opinion that is preposterous, American occupation is the reason for revolt not the solution to it. There cannot be regional stability with occupation and interferance at all levels by Americans, they're presence and influance throughout the region was to ensure instability and ensure that hydro-carbon developement would not proceed without them. Do you see anyway out of this?:wave:

 

[lieexpsr]

darkbeaver- There is no way out of this mess the U.S. has made of the M.E. and there is no way they even want out. They didn't built a lot of permanent bases in Iraq for no reason. I can see perhaps the U.S. eventually stabilizing and protecting the flow of Iraq oil and some Iraqis going along with that aim. I think the U.S. is now intent on a similar situation as now exists in Saudi Arabia. That being a situation where there are enough people in power being paid off to look after U.S. interests. But I also see a steadfast resolve by the Iraqi people (freedom fighters) to keep up their fight for their right to control their own destinies. Of course this is going to cost the lives of many more Iraqis along with a steady stream of U.S. military back to the U.S in flagdraped boxes.

The U.S. just better hope that the freedom fighters don't get much more proficient with their use of rocket launchers and other modern weapons which can swat helicopters out of the sky.

 

[jimmoyer]

Many believe that an abandonment of the region by America will lead to growth of forces intent on eventual invasion of the western world, in my humble opinion that is preposterous, American occupation is the reason for revolt not the solution to it. There cannot be regional stability with occupation and interferance at all levels by Americans,...
-------------------------------------Darkbeaver----------------------------------------------------------

That's a good descriptive statement of both sides.

You could say the clash started back with the Crusades, since al Qaeda still uses that term
to describe the entire Western world. And recently the Saudi wing of the loosely de-centralized
group we call al Qaeda called for attacking all sources of oil to the US which they said, includes
Canada and Mexico. Their quandary will be what they do about Venezuela's Citgo.

So even al Qaeda is not going along with your story line.

Nor does history suggest you are right. We could have done nothing for
30 years and there would still be a rallying cry of hate taught to each generation,
using the same righteous reasoning you use but don't carry to the level of violence.

I do believe we've made quite a mess from our hubris.

However, when we leave, there will be a safe haven for train camps of terrorists.
They won't be done with us even after we leave.

You see it in Europe.

It's not so preposterous. They're telling us, it's not preposterous.

 

[darkbeaver]

Many believe that an abandonment of the region by America will lead to growth of forces intent on eventual invasion of the western world, in my humble opinion that is preposterous, American occupation is the reason for revolt not the solution to it. There cannot be regional stability with occupation and interferance at all levels by Americans,...
-------------------------------------Darkbeaver----------------------------------------------------------

That's a good descriptive statement of both sides.

You could say the clash started back with the Crusades, since al Qaeda still uses that term
to describe the entire Western world. And recently the Saudi wing of the loosely de-centralized
group we call al Qaeda called for attacking all sources of oil to the US which they said, includes
Canada and Mexico. Their quandary will be what they do about Venezuela's Citgo.

So even al Qaeda is not going along with your story line.

Nor does history suggest you are right. We could have done nothing for
30 years and there would still be a rallying cry of hate taught to each generation,
using the same righteous reasoning you use but don't carry to the level of violence.

I do believe we've made quite a mess from our hubris.

However, when we leave, there will be a safe haven for train camps of terrorists.
They won't be done with us even after we leave.

You see it in Europe.

It's not so preposterous. They're telling us, it's not preposterous.

The Crusades were about economics JimMoyer, control of the eastern mediterran trade routes.Religion then as now was used to motivate the masses.Al-Kayda, I wonder how much of that specter is substance Jim, don't even think about an Islamic versus Chavez left conflict, Stick to the forces in play, ie; western capitalism and the ME people, thats basicly the conflict, the right of those people to thier own land and resources and the power of western capitalism. Chavez threatens only one of those players.
If your scenario of Islamic world domination had any valid base in reality you're looking at half a century of rebuilding and force developement before any attack other than the odd bomb could be launched. What we're really looking at is a power shift from the west to the east the conflict zone of the ME is the pivot, it's nothing more than the last desperate attempt of those western capitalist forces to remain in the saddle.What I'm primarily worried about is the number of dead considered, worth it,to the American administrations and thier controllers. I don't see any limits to that body count, at least not among the natives.:wave:

 

[jimmoyer]

Religion then as now was used to motivate the masses.Al-Kayda,
I wonder how much of that specter is substance Jim,......If your scenario of
Islamic world domination had any valid base in reality....

-----------------------------------------------------Darkbeaver--------------------------------------------

Of course religion is used to motivate the masses. By the way, some of these
characters really do believe in what they're saying, so from their point of view there is no
manipulation of the masses, but rather it is the expression of truth and the right course of
action.

You're too used to people who don't believe what they say.

LOL !!

BOOM !!!

And as far as world domination ??? Conservatives believe nothing of the sort !!
We do believe they will be able to seriously hurt us, however. Have you not seen 9/11 ?
Or the Taliban that same year gunning down the worlds' largest and oldest Buddhist
statues in Afghanistan ?

They can hurt us. They want to. They're telling us. They do believe what they say.
You're too used to the storyline of people not believing what they say.

And Islam does advise them to warn their enemies first, thus giving them a chance
to repent.

That's the danger.

Not some cartoon version of world domination.

 

[darkbeaver]

Religion then as now was used to motivate the masses.Al-Kayda,
I wonder how much of that specter is substance Jim,......If your scenario of
Islamic world domination had any valid base in reality....

-----------------------------------------------------Darkbeaver--------------------------------------------

Of course religion is used to motivate the masses. By the way, some of these
characters really do believe in what they're saying, so from their point of view there is no
manipulation of the masses, but rather it is the expression of truth and the right course of
action.

You're too used to people who don't believe what they say.

LOL !!

BOOM !!!

And as far as world domination ??? Conservatives believe nothing of the sort !!
We do believe they will be able to seriously hurt us, however. Have you not seen 9/11 ?
Or the Taliban that same year gunning down the worlds' largest and oldest Buddhist
statues in Afghanistan ?

They can hurt us. They want to. They're telling us. They do believe what they say.
You're too used to the storyline of people not believing what they say.

And Islam does advise them to warn their enemies first, thus giving them a chance
to repent.

That's the danger.

Not some cartoon version of world domination.

Hey you live in a fundamentalist haven, people who are esentially cut from the same cloth, there numbers are legion and thier declared agenda is exactly the same as the Islamists but you single out the Muslims, fine defeat the Muslims you leave the real enemy (fundamentalism) unscathed and in power ready to cleanse and purify, look at the total enemy not one distant symtom of it.
I suggest that fundemental Christians represent a real threat to Americans and I'm not alone in that belief. The greatest hurt to Americans by Muslims is your expulsion from thier land, that will completely defeat any reason or need to dabble in terrorists attacks in North America. They didn't
adopt an anti-American stance in a goddamn vacuum you know.Let them have thier land and the oil poof situation diffused. But I don't see your wall street rulers agreeing to that so a lot of people will have to die.:wave:

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

The top brass in 2003 stated that 300,000 troops were needed at that time to secure Iraq. Things have deteriorated greatly since then. All sending 20,000 more American troops to Iraq is going to do is provide more targets for the insurgents.

 

[darkbeaver]

Good, except they kill Iraqis.

 

[Cobalt_Kid]

Good, except they kill Iraqis.

How is it good?

A lot of the American troops don't want to be in Iraq the same way they didn't want to be in Vietnam. I blame Bush and Cheney for this mess not the troops on the ground. Most of them are just trying to get through their tour alive.

 

[lieexpsr]

cobalt- Do you think all this 'support the troops' nonsense is reasonable? Those people are choosing to be there and the ones that are getting shot at are probably the ones who are most gung-ho to kill others. If I was an American I would choose to not have anything to do with that immoral and illegal war. Maybe it calls for a little more consideration due to the fact that if people continue to be conned into supporting the troops they in fact have to support the war effort. Rather, if you are against the war would it not be wise to say you support no part of it and anyone who signs up should not be supported because they have put a job ahead of morality? And then of course, if they are war supporters, IMO they deserve what they get as the Iraqi people fight back to rid their country of the occupiers.

I can tell you people quite clearly, I don't support what our troops are doing in Afghanistan and I don't run around trying to convince people that they should support Canada's troops. I find it best to be silent on the matter at least and that way I don't lend any credibility to their war.

Does it help to think of WW2 and the fact that not all Germans supported their war, but needed to be silent on it for the sake of not being persecuted? Is there really any difference? Is this Iraq war any less immoral and evil?

I'm hoping to get some other opinions on this issue.

 

[darkbeaver]

Well Iraqis don't want to die either and since they're the innocent side quess that leaves me little to choose from. If someone has to die it should be the criminals.But lieexpsr has said it well enough.
I don't want to see anybody killed but if you're in a country against the expressed internationally agreed law and conducting warfare, you have not a legal or moral leg to stand on. And ignorance is no excuse. :wave:

 

[jimmoyer]

They (the Islamic fundamentalists) didn't
adopt an anti-American stance in a goddamn vacuum you know.
-----------------------------darkbeaver----------------------------------------------------

So what was 9/11 about ?

Was al Qaeda thankful for our helping them in Afghanistan against the Soviets ?
Was al Qaeda attacking America for Saddam suffering under NO FLY ZONES ?

Did 9/11 happen before this war in Iraq ?

Did al Qaeda list Israel as its top reason among the 11 reasons why they attacked America ?

Did not al Qaeda this week promise to attack Canada and Mexico ?

ARe you still used to hearing people who don't believe what they say ?

If they attacked Madrid for helping America, why do you think they don't mean to attack
Canada for exporting oil to United States ?

 

[darkbeaver]

I don't believe the storys of AL-Qaeda Jim, I don't believe the stoys about 9/11, I don't believe much of the official storys, the history of Al-Qaeda is mysterious and I'm not inclined to believe propaganda anymore, I;m not alone in that regard.I'm waiting for the next convienient terrorist attack.

 

[jimmoyer]

That's convenient, darkbeaver.

 

[Avro]

You make it sound as though Al Quaeda popped out of nowhere for nothing and started hating the West for no reason.

What you are doing now is making more Al Quaeda like groups for tommorrow just like what has been done in the past made them today.

We damned Saddam for gassing the Kurds but when Churchill did it to the same people he was a hero for doing what had to be done to maitain control.....something Saddam knew how to do.