Pope scolds Canada on gay marriage, abortion

MikeyDB

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Zzarchov

You’ve misread me my good fellow. I don’t fall into “traps” of any kind; my eyes are always wide open and my awareness honed.

This is of course antithetical to the construct of faith and obedience you seem to feel more utile to modern man.

Like the Moslem faith the Roman Catholic exercise of “faith” and dissemination of dogma are inexorably linked to times long gone and the acceptance of atrocities committed in the names of these faiths should be remembered as the product of willingness to surrender rational thinking to voodoo mumbo jumbo.

Residential schools in Canada were responsible for abuse on not only a physical and real world level, but on the psychological and cultural level as well. Investment by the Roman Catholic Church in re-making the world and human society into conformist mindless controllable fodder for monarchs and sympathetic governments would not abide the entertaining of any ideology that conflicted with the supreme and superior position the Vatican carved out for itself in the social organizing principles of a world dominated by imperialist regimes.

The basic tenets of love thy neighbour and do not return unkindness with same but return love and turn the other cheek etc. were convenient only when the coffers of the Roman Catholic Church were augmented by the plunder from French and Spanish looters sent across the planet to rape and pillage with the approval of the Holy See.

The wealth of the Roman Catholic Church would easily feed every starving child in the world, provide medical care and education for millions and yet the “Christian” kindness of this church (and most others) comes at the price of potential recipients voluntarily abandoning their beliefs traditions and cultures and whole-heartedly embracing the dogma of these money grubbing “religions”.

“Go forth and multiply”… the chant of the Vatican’s papal whores from the pulpits of enormous extravagant cathedrals regardless of the generations of poverty and legacy of vulnerability to the greedy governments of brigands and fortune-seeking governments who slaughtered in the name of Christ and the Holy Roman Church.

Put you’re faith in “god” and oh by the way don’t forget to send in your tithes and remember “god” doesn’t want his earthly messengers being driven around in anything less than Lincolns and Cadillac limousines!

Oral Roberts, Jim Swaggart, Jim Bakker and the entire roll call of conmen and grifters who’ve used the spiritual vulnerability of mankind for generations to steal from the “flock” while amassing enormous personal fortunes are all petty pikers compared to the Catholic Church.

These “godly” men and women (well no women in the Catholic church the Vatican’s been adamant about that for hundreds of years) have warped the measure and meaning of what it is to be a human being and placed a bounty on free speech and freedom of thought.

You buy their lies and invest in the same mindlessness as they approve of if you like, but don’t let the obscurity of the message and the exercises of the practices fool you for a moment.

This game like politics is entirely about power to control human thinking and fleece the faithful.

You mentioned earlier that the improvability of beliefs was the hallmark of many religions and in that you’re absolutely right. Unlike the immediacy of cause effect relationships easily comprehended by the great majority, religion relies on the special skills of translation and interpretation to build a fabrication of moral relativism that can be manipulated at will.

The “great religions” of this planet are lies and fabrications and to countenance any respect or permit of any rational foundation be applicable in examining them is to succumb to the mindlessness they champion.
 

Colpy

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Like the Moslem faith the Roman Catholic exercise of “faith” and dissemination of dogma are inexorably linked to times long gone and the acceptance of atrocities committed in the names of these faiths should be remembered as the product of willingness to surrender rational thinking to voodoo mumbo jumbo.

I would submit that "rational thinkers'" attempts to create the perfect man and the perfect society resulted in many times the atrocities , murder, and mayhem commited in the name of Christianity. Godless communists murdered about 100 million in their quest to create the perfect, rational, humanist society. Personally, I'd stick with "voodoo mumbo-jumbo", as you so arrogantly call faith.

Residential schools in Canada were responsible for abuse on not only a physical and real world level, but on the psychological and cultural level as well.

True, but, on a technicality, they were run by the Anglican church.......

The basic tenets of love thy neighbour and do not return unkindness with same but return love and turn the other cheek etc. were convenient only when the coffers of the Roman Catholic Church were augmented by the plunder from French and Spanish looters sent across the planet to rape and pillage with the approval of the Holy See.

You should read a little deeper into history......the Church was divided over the treatment of natives in North America, the Jesuits worked tirelessly to save them, and the cause of the South American Indian was taken up, with some noteable success, by a Dominican priest, Bartholomew de las Casas.

See the movie The Mission (Robert De Niro)for a VERY accurate depiction of the split in the church.

Oral Roberts, Jim Swaggart, Jim Bakker and the entire roll call of conmen and grifters who’ve used the spiritual vulnerability of mankind for generations to steal from the “flock” while amassing enormous personal fortunes are all petty pikers compared to the Catholic Church.

Funny, not a Catholic among them. yet these are very valid criticisms, as are those that address child abuse and political chicanry among the Christian clergy. BUT, I submit, for every slimeball with a clerical collar there are 10 good and honest people trying to do good for their flock and their community. To judge the Christian Church by its worse members would be like judging Islam by Osama bin Laden.

The “great religions” of this planet are lies and fabrications and to countenance any respect or permit of any rational foundation be applicable in examining them is to succumb to the mindlessness they champion.

This is just crap. To advise that the beliefs of BILLIONS of people are to be disrespected and not taken into account is arrogance at its utmost.

BTW, I was raised by Baptists, and am no Papist. In fact, I'm not a church goer at all, although I would claim to be a Christian.
 

MikeyDB

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Perhaps its "crap" because as you say it lavishes scorn on people who embrace beliefs in invisible unicorns and imaginary beings, but to dismiss it at 'crap' on the basis of fact is faulty.

Not Communism nor Fascism nor any "political" instrument of the social milieu has exercised so large and so grossly negative an impact on humankind as have religious beliefs.

Simply because sufficient numbers of people believe in something doesn't lend it authority or imbue it with absolute truth. We've learned that there are forces beyond the mountain gods that produce rainfall and that mental disease isn't sign of occupancy by demons.

Several million people who believe something have the right to believe whatever that might be but that doesn't grant them the corner on being right.
 

MikeyDB

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You've got your own fair share of arrogance seething beneath that pretense of balance my friend. The arrogance that comes with embracing fantasy and empirically unknowable "conditions" as substance for declaring who is the correct target for discrimination and hatred.

You'd suggest that the choice to elevate the male above the female in society doesn't have its basis in religious prejudices. You'd suggest that the choice to tolerate slavery and dehumanize people who don't believe what you believe is the "good" position you've learned from these various religions. I don't have the corner on arrogance my friend, I don't really care what you believe as long as it doesn't come at the price of other peoples freedoms and respect. Something it appears from your contribution that you think should be subject to your interpretation and favored voodoo mumbo jumbo.

Who's more guilty?

The person or organization that exercises intolerance and prejudice in the name of creating a workable solution of equality and common interest or teh organization that embraces prejudice at its most basic foundations.

Secular massacres in the name of Communism or any other "godless" belief construct aren't tarnished with the same burden of hypocrisy that religion has brandished as its centerpiece for thousands of years.

That secular organizations (governments and parties) have exhibited a willingness to slaughter and destroy anyone who stood in their way shares this attribute with religion and Catholicism in particular.
 

agentkgb

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Aug 22, 2006
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RE: Pope scolds Canada on

The Pope's just a guy on another continent. He can't stop gays from marrying in Canada, so what's it matter what he says about it? The peoplw who will listen to him already oppose gay marriage anyway.
 

Colpy

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Not Communism nor Fascism nor any "political" instrument of the social milieu has exercised so large and so grossly negative an impact on humankind as have religious beliefs.

Simply untrue. Reread your history. Communism alone is responsible for as many as 100 million deaths of innocents in the twentieth century. The Church could not hold a candle to that number. And we haven't even touched on fascism, as that political philosophy was, in some places (notably Spain and Italy) somewhat supported by the church.

I would absolutely agree that belief by millions does not constitute fact.........I mean look at the numbers that believe the WTC was taken down by the US gov't or the Mossad........

You'd suggest that the choice to elevate the male above the female in society doesn't have its basis in religious prejudices. You'd suggest that the choice to tolerate slavery and dehumanize people who don't believe what you believe is the "good" position you've learned from these various religions.

You shouldn't lump all religion together if you wish to seriously debate the subject. I will only defend Christianity, as that is the only one I am really familiar with.

I think you will find that males rule in any society on earth until very recently. Religion has little to do with it.

You should read some more history. Overwhelmingly the people who protested slavery in the United States, the people that created the underground railroad, the folks that tirelessly fought against the institution of slavery were Christians, and did so because of their faith.

Secular massacres in the name of Communism or any other "godless" belief construct aren't tarnished with the same burden of hypocrisy that religion has brandished as its centerpiece for thousands of years.

This is just silly. Communism is, at its core, a humanist faith that proclaims the perfectability of man and promises peace, freedom, and equality in a crimeless society..............the socialist heaven, if you will. It has failed to deliver on any of that anywhere in the world.......to dismiss its murders, commited in the name of faith, simply because that faith is humanist in nature, is hardly condusive to constructive argument.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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Re: RE: Pope scolds Canada on gay marriage, abortion

Colpy said:
This is just silly. Communism is, at its core, a humanist faith that proclaims the perfectability of man and promises peace, freedom, and equality in a crimeless society..............the socialist heaven, if you will. It has failed to deliver on any of that anywhere in the world.......to dismiss its murders, commited in the name of faith, simply because that faith is humanist in nature, is hardly condusive to constructive argument.

Congratulations Colpy. That is without a doubt the best short summary of Communism and what's wrong with it that I've ever seen.

Which I suppose is really just another way of saying I agree with you... :wink:
 

MikeyDB

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I agree, Communism as concept in the hands of a human inellect perverted to the degree only human beings can pervert an idea is undoubtedly one of great evils of humankind.

I'd suggest you examine the history of South and Central America if you think the Communist regimes (both China and the former USSR) can claim top billing for murder and mayhem. The extermination of millions of people all over the world has been witnessed and in many instances facilitated under the rubric of "gods will" in both the western hemisphere and throughout the world.

Joe Stalin and the "political" monsters of our brief occupany on this little blue orb certainly do grab ones atention but is that really product of social or cultural awareness or have there been influences at work to direct our thinking into particular avenues?

While I agree that the Underground Railway and much of the protest against slavery in the U.S. came from "Christians" it is an accepted tenet of the Judaic foundation that slavery is an aceptable component of social evolution just read about it in your bible!

Slavery was practiced in ancient Rome and Greek antiquity and remained an acceptable device for hundreds of years. I'm afraid that the facts of history although embellished and polished to lend the appearance of "good" to Christianity in particular but "religion" in general simply fails to explain why with a billion followers (or at least claimants) Christianity hasn't stood against either Facism or Communism in any meaningful way!

It was perfectly OK for Christians to slaughter folk during the Inquisitions but when it came to standing beside Russians and Ukrainians, or the aboriginal peoples of Australia, South America, just about anywhere, Christianity and the voodo mumbo jumbo of "religion" went, all this moral good was somehow missing.

While Britain ransacked Africa and established apartheid and the Dutch the Portugese and the Jews bought and sold slaves for generations where were all these good religious folk then?

Well you'd counter...there simply wasn't a global awareness during those times so sufficient numbers didn't know what was going on...

There never seems to be a paucity of excuses and avoidance when it comes to good "Christian" and religious folk in general asked to answer the question of where the power of these beliefs goes when the atrocities that humankind practices over hundreds and thousands of years is laid out before them.

Or maybe it's simply that the omnipotent all seeing all aware creator being that rests at the foundation of these beliefs wasn't actually around until the printing press was invented or the Roman Catholic Church transcribe the Aramaic scrolls into Greek and Latin.

Excuses Excuses and avoidance. If this "belief" had the strength of meaningfulness that so many folk claim it to have why is it that we can trace the abuse and corruption of not only those who'd ussurp the power of the "Holy Word" but the practioners themselves, the priests the decons and the faithful?

Hey you want to buy this load of crap you go ahead and buy it but there are people in this world capable of recognizing a con job for what it is.
 

MikeyDB

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Pope blames godlessness for low birthrate.


Just finished reading several articles on the Pope’s “message”. Someone should inform the Vatican that biological fertility doesn’t hinge on “godliness” but is affected many different things that have nothing to do with “god”.

Maybe the Pope can give us a few pointers on how to combat the “need” for two incomes by families that have been conditioned to believe they absolutely have to have the biggest the fastest the “best”…meaning new of course….

Or how to convince the movie industry that conditioning our children to an acceptance of rage and gratuitous violence complete with both voluntary and involuntary objectification of women serves the interests of manufacturers and business folk more interested in wealth and power than peace and stability in society.

Or how all the drive-thru eateries promote sit-down-together-family meals…

Or any number of components to the ethos of a society that’s given itself wholly over to greed and appearance before values and honor.

You’ll never see that happen because the Vatican relies on its cozy relationship with governments to keep public funding available to Roman Catholic Churches, to keep the “faithful” receiving those tax deduction forms for gratuities to the ‘church’….

It couldn’t afford nor has it ever been able to afford the luxury of exposing the truth and naming it for what it is, it’s always this vague concept of “godlessness” and the failure of individual people not the failure of the church to pronounce judgment on the social contrivance of government that compels people to consumer beyond this planets ability to produce so the WalMarts and the MacDonald’s and the Petroleum corporations can make donations (tax deductible of course) to keep the priests in wine.
 

tamarin

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Jun 12, 2006
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"Or how to convince the movie industry that conditioning our children to an acceptance of rage and gratuitous violence complete with both voluntary and involuntary objectification of women serves the interests of manufacturers and business folk more interested in wealth and power than peace and stability in society."

That's it in a nutshell. Democracies inevitably become silly constructs where the gratutious and the stupid hold court.
 

Zzarchov

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The problem is when you point out that is not faith or god , or belief there in that causes the horrors mankind has endured..but mankind himself then those who are religiously athiest have to come face to face with the fact that their faith is equally as prone to corruption and evil (as history shows) as monothiest and polythiest faiths have been in history.

Seeing as how we don't actually understand the universe but many think we do with science, science has become its own faith system, where much like other religions, people form chains of thought based on a faulty first assumptions (aka eugenics, stalinism) which lead to the same evil as when people make faulty assumptions based on faulty assumptions about god's will and how much they know about it.

And for the record I am not a catholic, that doesn't mean I support any kind of secular thought police telling people what they can and cannot believe and what is and is not rational thought.
 

Colpy

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Re: RE: Pope scolds Canada on gay marriage, abortion

Zzarchov said:
The problem is when you point out that is not faith or god , or belief there in that causes the horrors mankind has endured..but mankind himself then those who are religiously athiest have to come face to face with the fact that their faith is equally as prone to corruption and evil (as history shows) as monothiest and polythiest faiths have been in history.

Seeing as how we don't actually understand the universe but many think we do with science, science has become its own faith system, where much like other religions, people form chains of thought based on a faulty first assumptions (aka eugenics, stalinism) which lead to the same evil as when people make faulty assumptions based on faulty assumptions about god's will and how much they know about it.

And for the record I am not a catholic, that doesn't mean I support any kind of secular thought police telling people what they can and cannot believe and what is and is not rational thought.

Well said, especially the bit about technology, the new saviour.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Re: RE: Pope scolds Canada on gay marriage, abortion

Zzarchov said:
... those who are religiously athiest have to come face to face with the fact that their faith ...

Oh come on Zzarchov, are you suggesting atheism is a religion or a faith in some sense? It's an absence of them. Lack of belief, as I've said elsewhere on these forums, is not a belief, and there's a long and futile thread somehere on here that was kept going long beyond its natural end by people apparently unable to grasp that simple fact. Science isn't a faith-based system either, though it's often been perverted by people who think it is and represented as such by various woolly-minded post-modernist deconstructionist thinkers who have not a clue what they're going on about, but that's beyond the scope of this thread.

I'd agree there have been some remarkably nasty people who've proclaimed themselves atheists (Mao and Stalin come immediately to mind), but atheism was not what drove them to do most of their vile deeds. You can't generally pin them on atheism, any more than you can pin any nasty thing any Christian does on Christianity. Religion often does, however, directly and immediately drive people to do vile deeds in its name, which you certainly ought to be aware of with the 9/11 anniversary coming up tomorrow. You've heard of the Spanish Inquisition? The destruction of the Inca civilization? History has thousands of examples of religiously motivated persecution, terrorism, oppression, enslavement, genocide, you name it. The Bible itself is full of stories like that.

The history of atheim's pretty benign by contrast, though that may be only because it's not generally an organized movement the way religions are. History is replete with stories of groups doing unspeakably awful things to each other over fairly minor differences, so I suppose if atheists organized themselves into political movements and parties and got themselves into power there's no reason to think they'd be any more gentle in their exercise of it than anybody else has been.

But they don't, probably because they have more interesting things to do.
 

Toro

Senate Member
Re: RE: Pope scolds Canada on gay marriage, abortion

MikeyDB said:
Tamarain

Well said my friend, but Canadians haven't experienced a real democracy for years. The great NAFTA deal that the U.S. can ignore anytime it's interests aren't served, the gouging that's going on at the gas pumps while Imperial Oil posts the largest profits EVER...the list goes on and on..

We live in a nation that is ruled by the wealthy for the wealthy and any silly notions that anyone may have about democracy are cosswollop.

That's right.

We pay high prices at the pump because we lack "real" democracy.
 

Toro

Senate Member
Re: RE: Pope scolds Canada on gay marriage, abortion

tamarin said:
The western way of life is muddled indeed and so are most other, if not all, cultural arenas. The world's major problem isn't cultural, it's demographic. There are way too many of us and western societies especially - and unbelievably - are coaxing as many of us as possible to live to old age. It's profoundly warped.

Do you live in the West?

If so, do you plan to kill yourself soon?

Or at least kill yourself when you've hit 55?
 

Toro

Senate Member
Re: RE: Pope scolds Canada on gay marriage, abortion

These two posts are a mind-boggling contradiction.

MikeyDB said:
Misuse of earths natural resources and the imprudence of global wars that have seeded dioxins and pathogens across the planet wouldn't have happened if the evolution of humankind included some degree of maturation that kept pace with his infantile fascination with technology. We're killing ourselves when if we'd acted with forethought and exercised some quality long-range thinking, we wouldn't be facing the forced extinction of species we do today. This planet can support the people that are here, what it can't support is the exhaustion of billions upon billions of calories of energy that using up petroleum reseves has begun.

MikeyDB said:
the gouging that's going on at the gas pumps while Imperial Oil posts the largest profits EVER