Palestinian hero kidnapped israeli soldier

[aeon]

Re: RE: Palestinian hero kidn

I knew I should have stayed downstairs at the party and not come up here to check my email...and then this forum....and then this f.ucking post. Now I need to slap you around aeon:

Just don't take it too seriously, it is not the end of the world, and more importantly by arguing, we arenot killing anyone by our actions, so there is nothing to worry about.

I never once said Palestinians were sub-human. I did however say they were living in the stoneage, big difference. Might want to, when you debate, bring up fact and not fiction. Once again, I am not anti-liberal, as I pointed out, i'm anti-liberal party, there is a big difference. How am I anti-communist? I've never once, to my knowledge on these forums, posted anything with regard to Communism. So answer that aeon, how do you know i'm anti-communism if i've never said a word about it? Yup i'm pro-military, but that alone doesn't make me a facist and as I said, i'm extremely rational (in fact I lost a relationship due to it). So what else do you have? Besides stamping your feet and saying i'm a facist? Anything concrete to back up your "claim" aeon? I thought not. Sit down.

Ok, then you are not a fascist, but you are still close to, thinking palestinians live in stone age withouth even trying to understand why this conflict is at this stage, basically the same attitude, nazi had towards jews.

Ever heard the phrase: "Necessity is the mother of invention"? If you're refering to damage done to Palestine, would that be damage done in retribution for suicide attacks and the like? As for stealing land, that's a subjective point of view aeon. You clearly overlook the great strides they've taken to allocate land for Palestinians, in fact kicking Israeli's out of their own homes and forcefully relocating them. In all, as I said above, Necessity is the mother of invention. In other words; A need or problem encourages creative efforts to meet the need or solve the problem. Israel has a right to exist, and I don't expect them, nor do they expect themselves, to lay down and take it from Palestine. My view? If Palestine wants to keep throwing rocks, Israel will keep blowing things up. It's a war of attrition that Palestine cannot win. As I said once before; thinning out the herd. It's social darwinism at its finest aeon, and it isn't my fault Palestinians are, by and large, morons.

By saying what you just said, prove that you don't want to understand the palestinians problems.You have to understand the historic behind it, the fact that majority of jews, immigrated there in the begining of 1900, this is where the problem started.

Yup, I do believe that ALMOST everything (I say almost because Israel has f.ucked up in the past) Israel has done has been in either self-defence, or in retribution for acts carried out against them. With regard to Palestinians throwing rocks, no I don't call that terrorism, I call that being f.ucking stupid. However lets face reality aeon, a suicide vest or homemade rocket attack is a far stretch from a rock. Lets call a spade a spade aeon, Palestine does a lot of damage with plenty more than rocks. Lets try to keep this in perspective here aeon, and quit exagerating the nicety of Palestine. Can you do at least that?

Ok then let's look at the statistics just for the fun of it.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 734 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000.

The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO’s.

The Israeli unemployment rate is 8.9%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 25-31%.

60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements.

Since September 2000:
? 2,610 pupils have been wounded on their way to or from school;
? 245 Palestinian students and school children have been killed and 166 students and 75 teachers have been arrested
Between January and July 2002, Israeli military forces occupied 18 schools in the West Bank, converting them to military bases or prisons;
In Hebron alone, four schools have been converted to military bases, with three still under Israeli control (as of December 2002), denying 1,920 students access to their schools;
Between January and June 2002, 24 schools were heavily shelled by the Israeli military;
Since 29 March 2002, the education process has been completely paralyzed in 850 schools;
Since September 2000, 197 schools have been damaged, 11 schools completely destroyed and 9 vandalized;
From 29 March to 1 May 2002: 1,289 schools were closed, 45,000 tawjihi students supposed to take the general exam in June were prevented from accessing their schools, and 54,730 teaching sessions per day were lost due to complete cessation of classes in major West Bank towns during Israeli military operations1

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/new_web/factsheet_children.htm



This is quite fuk.i.n.g fair, isnt?, when i see that, i tell myself what you would do if you were a palestinians, you are ready to make their life even worst, withouth even knowing all the details from that conflict, imagine if you were a palestinians, you would be in those extremist gangs.

If they target every Palestinian, then why don't I see the crew commander of a Merkava Main Battle Tank mowing down people in the street with his turret mounted .50cal? Or why aren't Israeli warplanes conducting straffing runs on crowded Palestinian markets? No aeon, they don't target innocenets (yes some do end up dead, but war is hell). Human rights are controlled by the ruling party, you cannot blame Israel for every short-coming that exists outside of their sphere of influence. Up until recently the Gaza Strip was controlled by Palestine. Are you implying that Israel is to blame for the state of affairs in a piece of land they don't control? Come on aeon, that's f.ucking stupid man.

Read the statistics again.

No evidence hey? Anyway i've said this time and time again (as have many here), there is plent of evidence. You just don't want to see it. Your panic is not my concern aeon. Oh, and one query, if "Robert Pape" deems that suicidal terrorism isn't based on religion, they why do they use religion as the basis for conducting their acts? Why does everything consist of religious over-tones? Why the Allah AKbar just before they blow themselves up? Answer that aeon. I'll reiterate ANSWER THAT AEON, DO NOT AVOID THIS QUESTION LIKE YOU OFTEN DO. Why all the religious over-tones if it isn't about religion? And if reading that will make me "less ignorant", and you're a shinning example of "less ignorance", i'll pass and take my chances, lest I end up like you.

No evidence, otherwise show them to me, we remember powell at the UN showing fabricated evidence that saddam had WMD.

Why most of the americans/coalitions soldiers praised god when they are in action?

First off, get the mans name right aeon. I know you've got a language barrier, but frankly man, Osama is still spelled Osama in French and English. If you're going to argue a point, at least get the spelling of the subject matter correctly aeon.

In french it is Oussama, here is the proof

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109E.html

Quelques heures après les attaques terroristes du 11 septembre au World Trade Center et au Pentagone, l'administration Bush concluait, sans preuve à l'appui, qu'Oussama ben Laden et son organisation,

Man alive. Anyway, now for the "issues" with his tape;

1. His handedness; look this word up = ambidextrous

Wrong, oussama isnt ambidestrous, according to fbi he is lefthanded.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm

Remarks: Bin Laden is the leader of a terrorist organization known as Al-Qaeda, "The Base". He is left-handed and walks with a cane.

2. His weight; People do gain weight aeon, they can all lose it, it's amazing

Basically when you have kidney problem, you don't gain weight.

3. His gold ring; Yes it's prohibited, then again so is killing innocent people....what makes you think he'd violate the Quran in one aspect, then follow it in another.

That is exactly what oussama says, when he is being asked about the attacks on 9-11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oussama_bin_Laden

I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. […] The United States should try to trace the perpetrators of these attacks within itself […] there are dozens of well-organized and well-equipped groups capable of causing such large-scale destruction.

Hahahahahaha a link? Like MI6 would just leave that info laying around if it were true aeon. Come on man, you can find anything on the internet. Take this for example:

Link

Well that must be true, I found it on the internet. Right aeon?

Also fyi, your f.ucking link doesn't work....again. You're missing chromosomes aren't you?

The f.u.ck.ing link, works here it is again, a show that was on Fox news

http://www.infowars.net/Pages/Aug05/020805Aswat.html

Holy *censored* man, learn to post a link then. It's not hard. You're sitting there telling me I lack a brain for being in the Army, and then you basically admit you can't link a person to a page properly. Wow.

Not at all, the link path was too long, for the canadian content web site, cause automatically they add the cadian content link with it, but all you have to do, is click on it, and take out the canadian content link.

Holy f.uck. You just underminded your entire argument aeon. You linked me to a page, argued something, then ended up agreeing with me all in the span of three posts. Dude, seriously, get a friend with an IQ above 70 to help you with your posts. You spend more time digging yourself in to a hole than actually debating anything of merit.

First of all, my iq is at 145 , not extradinary, but better than 70% of the population, second of all, i said i agree with the fact that technically they can't be brought in american court, but my point is the fact that nobody at guatamobay are held with any kind of charge, makes it unfair, when there is evidence those saudis are financially supporting alquada.

 

[jimmoyer]

Even an IQ of 145 cannot solve this Israel-Palestine
problem, can it ?

Even rocket science is simpler.

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: Palestinian hero kidn

Come on ITN, i never said palestinians extremist were nice, that is something you can't refute.

Sure I can, you call an abduction of a soldier by Islamofascists, heroism. Heroism would be to walk up to him and shoot him, not gang up and kidnap him.

Wrong, how do you know they were islamofascist? do you seriously think there is no rebels and resistance in palestine?as soon as you attack either civilians or military isrealis, whatever the reason are, they are islamofascist/terrorist?

 

[jimmoyer]

I'm thinking a lot of Palestinians are afraid of their
own heroes and they know damn well freedom of
speech gets you killed in their own territory by their
own heroes.

They hate US soldiers for the fact one of their own
suicide bombers killed the Iraqi children taking a piece
of candy from a US soldier.

How is that different from a Palestinian "hero" inviting
return fire from the Israelis into their Palestinian homes?

I've already anticipated your distinction, but it will
not cancel the similarity of both situations --- of which
Iraqis and Palestinians are afraid to say openly.

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: Palestinian hero kidnapped israeli soldier

I'm thinking a lot of Palestinians are afraid of their
own heroes and they know damn well freedom of
speech gets you killed in their own territory by their
own heroes.

They hate US soldiers for the fact one of their own
suicide bombers killed the Iraqi children taking a piece
of candy from a US soldier.

And what do you have to support that palestinians are afraid of their own heroes? what palestinians suicidal bombers has to do with iraq?

Have you ever talk to a palestinians child? or even a palestinians? they arenot afraid of anything at all, that is a just a sad fact.

How is that different from a Palestinian "hero" inviting
return fire from the Israelis into their Palestinian homes?

I've already anticipated your distinction, but it will
not cancel the similarity of both situations --- of which
Iraqis and Palestinians are afraid to say openly.

Like i said, palestians arent even afraid of israel, which has one of the deadliest military in the world, how would they be afraid of their own extremist?

 

[jimmoyer]

You speak with the artificiality of your head, not your
heart.

Think about it.

There is fear there, and not always in the way an
outsider reading the news believes.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Palestinian hero kidn

Wrong, how do you know they were islamofascist? do you seriously think there is no rebels and resistance in palestine?as soon as you attack either civilians or military isrealis, whatever the reason are, they are islamofascist/terrorist?

Yes that's correct. Soldiers do not kidnap people, they don't blow themselves up in a market or near a school bus. They're Islamofascist scum and they need to be "wiped out". Sound familiar?

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: Palestinian hero kidn

Wrong, how do you know they were islamofascist? do you seriously think there is no rebels and resistance in palestine?as soon as you attack either civilians or military isrealis, whatever the reason are, they are islamofascist/terrorist?

Yes that's correct. Soldiers do not kidnap people, they don't blow themselves up in a market or near a school bus. They're Islamofascist scum and they need to be "wiped out". Sound familiar?

Well there is about 400 palestinians children that are held withouth charge , soldier don't blow themselves up in a market, but shot rocket in schools,bulldoze population area, you know what, i would prefer to an israeli, and having 1 chance out of 10 000 to get hurt by extremist palestinians, than having 100 % chance to get my life fucked by israelis.

 

[Mogz]

RE: Palestinian hero kidn

Just don't take it too seriously, it is not the end of the world, and more importantly by arguing, we arenot killing anyone by our actions, so there is nothing to worry about.

What the hell are you talking about?

Ok, then you are not a fascist, but you are still close to, thinking palestinians live in stone age withouth even trying to understand why this conflict is at this stage, basically the same attitude, nazi had towards jews.

You know nothing of my educational capabilites aeon. In college I spent a great deal of time studying why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict errupted and still continues. That said, this is the second time you've equated me to a NAZI in this thread, I don't take kindly to that. I know full well why Palestine is socially behind the rest of the planet, and that blame does not lay with Israel, it lays with themselves. Lastly, the vilification of the Jews by the NAZI party does not tie in even remotely with my thoughts on Palestine. The Jews were made the scapegoat for German suffering post-World War I, most importantly the political and economical ramifications dealt to them after the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. Adolph Hitler put the burden of Germanys social plight on the Jewish inhabitants of Germany (and surrounding nations), however many overlook the fact that not only Jews were persecuted; homosexuals, gypsies, mentaly handicapped, physically handicapped, Communists, Social Democrats, and anyone that the NAZI party felt didn't match up to the "True Arian Race" were interred in the camps. Big difference between that bit of history and my thoughts on why Palestine is socially backwards hey? You lean on Fascism and the horrors of the NAZI party like they're some sort of moral crutch aeon. I say get over yourself.

By saying what you just said, prove that you don't want to understand the palestinians problems.You have to understand the historic behind it, the fact that majority of jews, immigrated there in the begining of 1900, this is where the problem started.

I am well aware why the problem started aeon, and i'm also well aware as to why the problem has been interminable. My whole argument has been that Palestine has been working against peace for decades, a great example (as I pointed out in the previous post) is that Israel are forcefully moved their own people, and given a lot of land back to Palestine. They've constantly extended the oblive branch, and been slapped in the face by Palestine ever since. Palestine doesn't want peace, they want Israel destroyed.

Ok then let's look at the statistics just for the fun of it.

Whats your point aeon? You've posted all this is another bleeding heart thread before. It's quite easy to explain why the numbers are skewed aeon. Palestine pokes the bear with the stick, in lets say the form of a rocket attack. The rocket lands in Israel and doesn't kill anyone. An IDF Apache Gunship pinpoints the lauch position and fires a hellfire missile at it. It explodes, killing 20 civilians standing around gawking. Cause and effect aeon. If the rocket hadn't been fired in the first place, those civilians would be alive. Anyone can play numbers to their favour without looking at the reason behind the numbers. The actions taken by the IDF are to promote the wellfare of their own people. If a school is a tactical location, a good Army will use it. Take a step back and look at why the school had to be used in the first place aeon. Cause and effect, the basis for my whole argument. As i've pointed out before, Israel rarely carries out military operations against Palestine unless they're provoked. The provocation comes at the hands of radicals like Hamas; whose carter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic State. I myself, if I were a neighbour to that type of Government, I would be pulling out all the stops for securing my own Nation against such radicals. If you're bent out of shape as to why children are killed, schools are closed, and schools are shelled, look at the cause for such military action aeon. The Palestinian leadership.

Why most of the americans/coalitions soldiers praised god when they are in action?

I think a soldier praying to god for his life, and shouting "God is Great" just before he blows himself up on a bus full of school children are slighty different takes on religion aeon. Furthermore, do you watch the news? Ever claim for a terrorist act, comes with heavy religious over-tones. Infidels, allah, etc etc, everything is backed up by Islam. Robert Pape obviously doesn't live in the real World aeon, much like you. If you want to say terrorism (Islamic) isn't rooted in religion, that's fine, but the truth is the very basis for such acts are carried out with heavy religious over-tones, as is terrorist recruiting, and/or terroist training. Everything is about Allah and slaughtering the infidels.

In french it is Oussama, here is the proof

No, that's a French moron spelling it wrong. But nice try.

Wrong, oussama isnt ambidestrous, according to fbi he is lefthanded.

Would this be the FBI of the Government you claim doesn't know anything and therefore predicated Afghanistan on a lie? So which is it aeon, do they have comprehensive information about terrorists world wide, or do they know nothing?

Basically when you have kidney problem, you don't gain weight.

Ha, tell that to my girlfriends mother who has crohn's, diabetes, and kidney failure, yes is largely overweight.

That is exactly what oussama says, when he is being asked about the attacks on 9-11.

What the hell are you talking about? You link me to wikipedia...WIKIPEDIA, a page consisting of homemade entries? Why the hell did you link me to that place? I've read up on Osama aeon, I don't need some patchwork website to have another read. So what is your point?

The f.u.ck.ing link, works here it is again, a show that was on Fox news

Wow, you learned how to link someone, congratulations. As for the video, so buddy was a double agent? So what? Double agents existed throughout the cold war, hell Canada even had a few. Is it not possilbe that the guy was playing two sides aeon? Furthermore it says right in the video that the last time he was used was in the late 90s. A lot can happen in almost a decade. Especially with the state of the world today. I mean hell, the U.S. DID fund and equip Al-qaeda during the Soviet Incursion in to Afghanistan. That changed didn't it?

Not at all, the link path was too long, for the canadian content web site, cause automatically they add the cadian content link with it, but all you have to do, is click on it, and take out the canadian content link.

Funny, I never get a "candian content" addition to my links. Then again I am somewhat more handsome and brighter than you......

First of all, my iq is at 145 , not extradinary, but better than 70% of the population, second of all, i said i agree with the fact that technically they can't be brought in american court, but my point is the fact that nobody at guatamobay are held with any kind of charge, makes it unfair, when there is evidence those saudis are financially supporting alquada.

Hahahahahahahahaha, dude, if you're going to lie about your IQ, at least make it believeable. You can't even spell a known terrorists name, or an Islamic news source's name correctly, yet you expect me to believe you're super-intelligent. Man, you can't even debate, in your 2nd last post you ended up undermining your entire argument. Now in this post (where you claim yourself highly intelligent), you clearly show an utter lack of understanding of international, U.S. Federal, and military law. I explained why the Saudi High Commission cannot be charge, and I also explained why the Gitmo detainees haven't been. The boys are Gitmo were picked up during U.S. Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. They were not uniformed, and not a part of any sanctioned Government military, that makes then unlawful combatants and therefore not subject to the rights of POWs, hence why they haven't been charged. The U.S. is simply abiding by the rules set out during the 3rd Geneva Convention of 1949 aeon. If a U.S. soldier gets in to civilian clothing, and walks in another country to begin spying, he is subject to the same fate as the Gitmo detainess. He was not clearly uniformed at the time, and therefore treated as an unlawful combatant. Am I getting through to you? Anything at all? That 145 IQ is really paying off isn't it?

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: Palestinian hero kidn

What the hell are you talking about?

You and I are just typing words on the internet, so therefore there is nothing to worry, since nobody is hurt by our actions.

You know nothing of my educational capabilites aeon. In college I spent a great deal of time studying why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict errupted and still continues. That said, this is the second time you've equated me to a NAZI in this thread, I don't take kindly to that. I know full well why Palestine is socially behind the rest of the planet, and that blame does not lay with Israel, it lays with themselves. Lastly, the vilification of the Jews by the NAZI party does not tie in even remotely with my thoughts on Palestine. The Jews were made the scapegoat for German suffering post-World War I, most importantly the political and economical ramifications dealt to them after the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. Adolph Hitler put the burden of Germanys social plight on the Jewish inhabitants of Germany (and surrounding nations), however many overlook the fact that not only Jews were persecuted; homosexuals, gypsies, mentaly handicapped, physically handicapped, Communists, Social Democrats, and anyone that the NAZI party felt didn't match up to the "True Arian Race" were interred in the camps. Big difference between that bit of history and my thoughts on why Palestine is socially backwards hey? You lean on Fascism and the horrors of the NAZI party like they're some sort of moral crutch aeon. I say get over yourself.

So ok, i quit calling you a nazi, but you are still have no sympatie for peoples who has been under illegal occupations for 35 years, israel has violated on thounsands occasions, international laws, and tons of UN resolutions, it is quite sad, that you don't recognize somes blames on israel, yes some palestinians extremist deserves some lessons, but the population has suffered enough , especially seeing the west, saying nothing about israel wrong doing.

I am well aware why the problem started aeon, and i'm also well aware as to why the problem has been interminable. My whole argument has been that Palestine has been working against peace for decades, a great example (as I pointed out in the previous post) is that Israel are forcefully moved their own people, and given a lot of land back to Palestine. They've constantly extended the oblive branch, and been slapped in the face by Palestine ever since. Palestine doesn't want peace, they want Israel destroyed.

Israel has stolen way more land, than they have any given, that is a true sad facts, 5 or 6 Un resolutions about those lands was given to israel which never comply,palestinians extremist wants to destroyed israel, but 89% of palestinians wants a 2 state solutions, the way is palestine today, we could also say, israel wants to destroys palestine, slowly but surely.

Whats your point aeon? You've posted all this is another bleeding heart thread before. It's quite easy to explain why the numbers are skewed aeon. Palestine pokes the bear with the stick, in lets say the form of a rocket attack. The rocket lands in Israel and doesn't kill anyone. An IDF Apache Gunship pinpoints the lauch position and fires a hellfire missile at it. It explodes, killing 20 civilians standing around gawking. Cause and effect aeon. If the rocket hadn't been fired in the first place, those civilians would be alive. Anyone can play numbers to their favour without looking at the reason behind the numbers. The actions taken by the IDF are to promote the wellfare of their own people. If a school is a tactical location, a good Army will use it. Take a step back and look at why the school had to be used in the first place aeon. Cause and effect, the basis for my whole argument. As i've pointed out before, Israel rarely carries out military operations against Palestine unless they're provoked. The provocation comes at the hands of radicals like Hamas; whose carter calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and its replacement with a Palestinian Islamic State. I myself, if I were a neighbour to that type of Government, I would be pulling out all the stops for securing my own Nation against such radicals. If you're bent out of shape as to why children are killed, schools are closed, and schools are shelled, look at the cause for such military action aeon. The Palestinian leadership.

My point is easy, there is more destructions to the palestinians than israelis, in any sense, it is even outrageous.
Hamas has nothing to do with it, fatah was there before, and it was the same thing all over again, nothing has changed, except cutting funds to palestinians.

I think a soldier praying to god for his life, and shouting "God is Great" just before he blows himself up on a bus full of school children are slighty different takes on religion aeon. Furthermore, do you watch the news? Ever claim for a terrorist act, comes with heavy religious over-tones. Infidels, allah, etc etc, everything is backed up by Islam. Robert Pape obviously doesn't live in the real World aeon, much like you. If you want to say terrorism (Islamic) isn't rooted in religion, that's fine, but the truth is the very basis for such acts are carried out with heavy religious over-tones, as is terrorist recruiting, and/or terroist training. Everything is about Allah and slaughtering the infidels.

Yeah, but is there any muslim country that are illegally occupying us North america??

Was there an illegal invasion from any muslim on us North ammerica?

we are in middle east for something that hasnt been proved yet, you have not proven to me that we are better than them , sorry, but nice try.

No, that's a French moron spelling it wrong. But nice try.

You can go bullstrawberry your own back, it is Oussama in french, so therefore , ""enough said""

Would this be the FBI of the Government you claim doesn't know anything and therefore predicated Afghanistan on a lie? So which is it aeon, do they have comprehensive information about terrorists world wide, or do they know nothing?

FBI agents, were the first to jump up and complain about the bush administrations on Oussama ben laden investigations,9-11 was orchetrated by key members of each organistaion , not all of them.

What the hell are you talking about? You link me to wikipedia...WIKIPEDIA, a page consisting of homemade entries? Why the hell did you link me to that place? I've read up on Osama aeon, I don't need some patchwork website to have another read. So what is your point?

Wikipedia, does source it well, you can't refute it, you only accept the us officials versions, that is pretty not objective from you, knowing their scores of lies since 2001.

Wow, you learned how to link someone, congratulations. As for the video, so buddy was a double agent? So what? Double agents existed throughout the cold war, hell Canada even had a few. Is it not possilbe that the guy was playing two sides aeon? Furthermore it says right in the video that the last time he was used was in the late 90s. A lot can happen in almost a decade. Especially with the state of the world today. I mean hell, the U.S. DID fund and equip Al-qaeda during the Soviet Incursion in to Afghanistan. That changed didn't it?

That is not the same case, here we are talking about the same one who suppositly planned 7/7 london bombing, and still working for MI6, and still protected by them, funny isnt??

Funny, I never get a "candian content" addition to my links. Then again I am somewhat more handsome and brighter than you......

Not to your links, to the link i put, and you click on it, you see canadiancontent preceding the websit it is linked.WHEN YOU CLICK ON MY LINK, TAKE OUT THE CANADIANCONTENT.NET thing, and just keep the real link, it isnot that hard.

Hahahahahahahahaha, dude, if you're going to lie about your IQ, at least make it believeable. You can't even spell a known terrorists name, or an Islamic news source's name correctly, yet you expect me to believe you're super-intelligent. Man, you can't even debate, in your 2nd last post you ended up undermining your entire argument. Now in this post (where you claim yourself highly intelligent), you clearly show an utter lack of understanding of international, U.S. Federal, and military law. I explained why the Saudi High Commission cannot be charge, and I also explained why the Gitmo detainees haven't been. The boys are Gitmo were picked up during U.S. Operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. They were not uniformed, and not a part of any sanctioned Government military, that makes then unlawful combatants and therefore not subject to the rights of POWs, hence why they haven't been charged. The U.S. is simply abiding by the rules set out during the 3rd Geneva Convention of 1949 aeon. If a U.S. soldier gets in to civilian clothing, and walks in another country to begin spying, he is subject to the same fate as the Gitmo detainess. He was not clearly uniformed at the time, and therefore treated as an unlawful combatant. Am I getting through to you? Anything at all? That 145 IQ is really paying off isn't it?

You can believe it or not, i really don't care, but Ousama ben laden is in french, like it or not it is the way it is , here some proof again and again and again.......

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oussama_Ben_Laden

Quatrième de couverture
Oussama Ben Laden n'est ni un désé

http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/2207253201/403-2598169-3895604

Le chef du réseau terroriste Al-Qaïda Oussama ben Laden, d

http://fr.fc.yahoo.com/w/wtcenquete.html

 

[Mogz]

RE: Palestinian hero kidn

I haven't forgotten about you aeon. Been sick/busy lately and haven't had time to post. You'll get a retort tomorrow.

 

[Mogz]

So ok, i quit calling you a nazi, but you are still have no sympatie for peoples who has been under illegal occupations for 35 years, israel has violated on thounsands occasions, international laws, and tons of UN resolutions, it is quite sad, that you don't recognize somes blames on israel, yes some palestinians extremist deserves some lessons, but the population has suffered enough , especially seeing the west, saying nothing about israel wrong doing.

Illegal occupation from your point of view. I'm not seeing IDF soldiers walking around EVERY Palestinian settlement. Granted now, due to idiots, there are a whole f.uck load in Gaza, but before this abduction issue there were none. Kind of hard to occupy people when your soldiers are no where near them hey aeon? U.N. resolutions only go so far. As i've pointed out a few times, the U.N. lives in a fairytale World, and frankly I have no time for the current state of the organization. The West perhaps says nothing about Israel (and this is a stretch because the West has scorned Israel in the past) because, and this is outrageous thinking aeon, that the West 9 times out of 10 agrees with Israels right to exist?

Israel has stolen way more land, than they have any given, that is a true sad facts, 5 or 6 Un resolutions about those lands was given to israel which never comply,palestinians extremist wants to destroyed israel, but 89% of palestinians wants a 2 state solutions, the way is palestine today, we could also say, israel wants to destroys palestine, slowly but surely.

This aspect of our debate is being drug in circles by you aeon. You started off with saying that Israel is bent on destroying Palestine. I easily pointed out to you how easily, if they wanted to, Israel could accomplish this. You may deem that 80% of Palestinians want a two state solution, but in reality aeon, the vast majority of Palestinians just voted in a party whose chief political platform is the destruction of Israel. I think that says a lot more about what Palestinians think, don't you?

My point is easy, there is more destructions to the palestinians than israelis, in any sense, it is even outrageous.
Hamas has nothing to do with it, fatah was there before, and it was the same thing all over again, nothing has changed, except cutting funds to palestinians.

More destruction hey aeon? I'm about to show you something, but before I do, let me point out that the deaths of Palestinians (how tragic it is, and I honestly mean that) are more often than not the result of military action taken by Israel against Palestinian militants. They are, in essence, casualties of War. The thing you utterly fail to realize aeon, is that Palestine TARGETS civilians. The fact that it is a child means NOTHING to the animals you support. Which is why I support Israel. Yes, Israel has killed innocents, i'll never debate that, however i'm "more accepting" of casualties of War than I am of blatant civilian targeting:

Link

390 civilian deaths aeon. That's not including military deaths. Look at December 27th. Four unarmed students shot blatantly. THATS why i'm against Palestine and Pro-Israel aeon. I draw the line at premeditated MURDER. Until Palestine stops that shit, i'll support Israel in everything they do, up to and including the incursion in to Gaza that is going on.

Yeah, but is there any muslim country that are illegally occupying us North america??

Was there an illegal invasion from any muslim on us North ammerica?

we are in middle east for something that hasnt been proved yet, you have not proven to me that we are better than them , sorry, but nice try.

Aeon, if you're going to debate with me, please, please, try to focus. You quoted my stance on religious overtones in suicide attacks and Islamic terrorism. Then you somehow hijack the context and start going on about muslims illegally occupying North America and us being in the middle east for something that hasn't been proven yet. That had NOTHING to do with what we were discussing. If you don't have a retort for something I wrote, be man enough to admit it, don't change the subject. I'll give you another shot aeon. Here's what I wrote:

I think a soldier praying to god for his life, and shouting "God is Great" just before he blows himself up on a bus full of school children are slighty different takes on religion aeon. Furthermore, do you watch the news? Ever claim for a terrorist act, comes with heavy religious over-tones. Infidels, allah, etc etc, everything is backed up by Islam. Robert Pape obviously doesn't live in the real World aeon, much like you. If you want to say terrorism (Islamic) isn't rooted in religion, that's fine, but the truth is the very basis for such acts are carried out with heavy religious over-tones, as is terrorist recruiting, and/or terroist training. Everything is about Allah and slaughtering the infidels.

Respond to that.

You can go bullstrawberry your own back, it is Oussama in french, so therefore , ""enough said""

Bullstrawberry my own back? Dude, if you're going to try and insult me, at least pull something out that shows you as having a mental age above six.

P.S. It's Osama

FBI agents, were the first to jump up and complain about the bush administrations on Oussama ben laden investigations,9-11 was orchetrated by key members of each organistaion , not all of them.

You never answered my question. Does the U.S. Government know nothing (as you've claimed numerous times) or does it have indepth information on terrorism world wide? It's a simple question.

Wikipedia, does source it well, you can't refute it, you only accept the us officials versions, that is pretty not objective from you, knowing their scores of lies since 2001.

Actually wikipedia is pretty eroneous. But that's another discussion. My main point was, why the hell did you link me to the "life and times of Osama Bin Laden"? or is this just another one of your irrelevant tangents?

That is not the same case, here we are talking about the same one who suppositly planned 7/7 london bombing, and still working for MI6, and still protected by them, funny isnt??

Actually there was nothing mentioned of him still being in the employ of MI6. It was mentioned that he worked for them in the 90's in Bosnia. My point? The West once funded Al-qaeda, but they turned on us. Why couldn't this guy turn on Britain? Oh right, that's too "outside the box" thinking for you.

Not to your links, to the link i put, and you click on it, you see canadiancontent preceding the websit it is linked.WHEN YOU CLICK ON MY LINK, TAKE OUT THE CANADIANCONTENT.NET thing, and just keep the real link, it isnot that hard.

Or you could just learn to link someone properly using BBcode.....

You can believe it or not, i really don't care, but Ousama ben laden is in french, like it or not it is the way it is , here some proof again and again and again.......

It's Osama. Sit down.

 

[Jo Canadian]

 

[Mogz]

Hahaha I love it.

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: Palestinian hero kidnapped israeli soldier

Illegal occupation from your point of view. I'm not seeing IDF soldiers walking around EVERY Palestinian settlement. Granted now, due to idiots, there are a whole f.uck load in Gaza, but before this abduction issue there were none. Kind of hard to occupy people when your soldiers are no where near them hey aeon? U.N. resolutions only go so far. As i've pointed out a few times, the U.N. lives in a fairytale World, and frankly I have no time for the current state of the organization. The West perhaps says nothing about Israel (and this is a stretch because the West has scorned Israel in the past) because, and this is outrageous thinking aeon, that the West 9 times out of 10 agrees with Israels right to exist?

What the right to exist has to do with the fact israel are oppressing the palestinians?

This aspect of our debate is being drug in circles by you aeon. You started off with saying that Israel is bent on destroying Palestine. I easily pointed out to you how easily, if they wanted to, Israel could accomplish this. You may deem that 80% of Palestinians want a two state solution, but in reality aeon, the vast majority of Palestinians just voted in a party whose chief political platform is the destruction of Israel. I think that says a lot more about what Palestinians think, don't you?

You just don't understand what is going on, we the west are turning a blind eye on israel for the last 35 years, palestinians who are tired to be ignored by the west decided to elect a radical party, because first the other choice was a corrupt party, and the other choice is a radical one, does it remind you something? what about us canadians? we live in a very peaceful country, and still we have elected a bunch of ignorant right wing moron, who has no clue what is going on in the world.

More destruction hey aeon? I'm about to show you something, but before I do, let me point out that the deaths of Palestinians (how tragic it is, and I honestly mean that) are more often than not the result of military action taken by Israel against Palestinian militants. They are, in essence, casualties of War. The thing you utterly fail to realize aeon, is that Palestine TARGETS civilians. The fact that it is a child means NOTHING to the animals you support. Which is why I support Israel. Yes, Israel has killed innocents, i'll never debate that, however i'm "more accepting" of casualties of War than I am of blatant civilian targeting:

Link

390 civilian deaths aeon. That's not including military deaths. Look at December 27th. Four unarmed students shot blatantly. THATS why i'm against Palestine and Pro-Israel aeon. I draw the line at premeditated MURDER. Until Palestine stops that shit, i'll support Israel in everything they do, up to and including the incursion in to Gaza that is going on.

Wait you minute, what the fuck are you trying to show me? you show me a death toll of one year, in this month more than 100 palestinians died, do you retards realize that ? do you realize how much home has been destroyed by israel?



http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1563255,00.html

It was the summer of 2002, and Assaf and his armoured unit had been ordered to enter the Gaza town of Dir al Balah following the firing of mortars into nearby Jewish settlements. His orders were, he told the Guardian, "'Every person you see on the street, kill him'. And we would just do it."

"The reason why I am telling you this is that I want the army to think about what they are asking us to do, shooting unarmed people. I don't think it's legal.

A group of Israeli soldiers serving in the Gaza Strip have reportedly admitted killing a 15-year-old Palestinian in Khan Yunus for sport.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A4BD8038-8970-4542-9E9C-E4FD18C11051.htm


Israel get caught by doing a phony alqaeda cells in palestine.

http://www.etherzone.com/2002/raim121602.shtml


Now you probably understand why i support the palestinians all the way.

Aeon, if you're going to debate with me, please, please, try to focus. You quoted my stance on religious overtones in suicide attacks and Islamic terrorism. Then you somehow hijack the context and start going on about muslims illegally occupying North America and us being in the middle east for something that hasn't been proven yet. That had NOTHING to do with what we were discussing. If you don't have a retort for something I wrote, be man enough to admit it, don't change the subject. I'll give you another shot aeon. Here's what I wrote:

I think a soldier praying to god for his life, and shouting "God is Great" just before he blows himself up on a bus full of school children are slighty different takes on religion aeon. Furthermore, do you watch the news? Ever claim for a terrorist act, comes with heavy religious over-tones. Infidels, allah, etc etc, everything is backed up by Islam. Robert Pape obviously doesn't live in the real World aeon, much like you. If you want to say terrorism (Islamic) isn't rooted in religion, that's fine, but the truth is the very basis for such acts are carried out with heavy religious over-tones, as is terrorist recruiting, and/or terroist training. Everything is about Allah and slaughtering the infidels.


Respond to that.

No problem, first of all you said, we were more evolved, which is why i brought this, to show a different point of view, to prove that we are not better than them, by going in middle east based on a lie, killing innoncent peoples.

You can say whatever you want, but you can't refute robert papes work, you are soldier, what are your knowledge on this subject? none at all, you take your information from western media? that is a damn joke, get inform. period.

Bullstrawberry my own back? Dude, if you're going to try and insult me, at least pull something out that shows you as having a mental age above six.

P.S. It's Osama

Listen up chicken-bastard( you prefer this one right?) OUSAMA BEN LADEN,period.

You never answered my question. Does the U.S. Government know nothing (as you've claimed numerous times) or does it have indepth information on terrorism world wide? It's a simple question.

you said this

Would this be the FBI of the Government you claim doesn't know anything and therefore predicated Afghanistan on a lie?

Like i said, fbi were the first one who criticized the bush administration on the war on terror.

Actually wikipedia is pretty eroneous. But that's another discussion. My main point was, why the hell did you link me to the "life and times of Osama Bin Laden"? or is this just another one of your irrelevant tangents?

That doesnt matter the claim by ousama ben laden was well sourced by wikipedia, nice try.

Actually there was nothing mentioned of him still being in the employ of MI6. It was mentioned that he worked for them in the 90's in Bosnia. My point? The West once funded Al-qaeda, but they turned on us. Why couldn't this guy turn on Britain? Oh right, that's too "outside the box" thinking for you.

listen to it again

LOFTUS: This is the guy, and what's really embarrassing is that the entire British police are out chasing him, and one wing of the British government, MI6 or the British Secret Service, has been hiding him. And this has been a real source of contention between the CIA, the Justice Department, and Britain.

LOFTUS: Well, apparently Aswat was working for British intelligence. Now Aswat's boss, the one-armed Captain Hook, he gets indicted two years later. So the guy above him and below him get indicted, but not Aswat. Now there's a split of opinion within US intelligence. Some people say that the British intelligence fibbed to us. They told us that Aswat was dead, and that's why the New York group dropped the caseThat's not what most of the Justice Department thinks. They think that it was just again covering up for this very publicly affiliated guy with Al-Muhajiroun. He was a British intelligence plant. So all of a sudden he disappears. He's in South Africa. We think he's dead; we don't know he's down there. Last month the South African Secret Service come across the guy. He's alive.

JERRICK: Yeah, now the CIA says, oh he's alive. Our CIA says OK let's arrest him. But the Brits say no again?

LOTFUS: The Brits say no. Now at this point, two weeks ago, the Brits know that the CIA wants to get a hold of Haroon. So what happens? He takes off again, goes right to London. He isn't arrested when he lands, he isn't arrested when he leaves.

Lol, pretty funny those mi6, cia, mossad.

It's Osama. Sit down.

Ousama ben laden

http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Ousama+bin+Laden

http://www.syti.net/AttentatsUS2.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/RIC111A.html

http://pages.globetrotter.net/mcordeau/2004/ousama.htm

http://www.geocities.com/gaetan8888/ttt3.html

http://persocite.francite.com/Orient/benladen.htm

http://www.religioscope.com/info/doc/jihad/jihadfile.htm

http://www.voltairenet.org/article140501.html

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3230,36-222457,0.html

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=subject:"jihad"

http://www.humourdunet.com/php/annuaire/index.php?cat=86

http://www.pasti.org/moumbari.html

http://www.jp-petit.com/Presse/Ben_Laden_FBI.htm

 

[DurkaDurka]

RE: Palestinian hero kidn

Aeon, you are a rambling fool.

Nice signature you have by the way. With all your hatred for your own country, please leave by all means, move to Palestine so you can Jihad with your heroes.

 

[Mogz]

What the right to exist has to do with the fact israel are oppressing the palestinians?

You call it oppression. I call it retaliating for acts of agression. The oppression would stop if the acts of aggression stopped. Simple. To the point.

You just don't understand what is going on, we the west are turning a blind eye on israel for the last 35 years, palestinians who are tired to be ignored by the west decided to elect a radical party, because first the other choice was a corrupt party, and the other choice is a radical one, does it remind you something? what about us canadians? we live in a very peaceful country, and still we have elected a bunch of ignorant right wing moron, who has no clue what is going on in the world.

35 years. I'm glad you used that broad a timeframe. It gives me plenty of ammo to use. You think the World turned a blind eye when Egypt and Syria launched the Yom Kippur War? Hell, along the Suez Canal 500 Israeli soldiers were attacked by over 80,000 Egyptians. The whole goal of the War was to catch Israel unprepared on a holy day, and utterly conquer them. Israel stomped the two-front attack and sent the Arabs running however. My point however is, how can you expect Israel to just sit around and take treatment like this? Sneak attacks, suicide bombings, rocket attacks. No aeon, any Nation that just took it would be a Nation of idiots. Idiots Israeli's are not. Furthermore do you honestly expect the Western World to just roll over and pretend that all the Nations surrounding Israle are bent on destroying them? Especially when they've proven it numerous times during the last 50 or so years. With regard to us having a "bunch of ignorant right wing moron, who has no clue what is going on in the world", that's your opinion aeon. And if you're any benchmark as to what it means to NOT be an ignorant moron, then we're all pretty much doomed.

Wait you minute, what the *censored* are you trying to show me? you show me a death toll of one year, in this month more than 100 palestinians died, do you retards realize that ? do you realize how much home has been destroyed by israel?

Calm down. I wasn't doing a number comparison aeon. I was however pointing out the difference in the deaths. If some Palestinians is killed by an apache gunship shooting at militants, well, as sad as that is, he's a casualty of war. 4 innocent school children blatantly murdered, they aren't casualties of War. They're victims of slow, deliberate, attemps at genocide aeon. I'll reiterate; I support Israel, who I will admit kill innocents, but do so by chance rather than vile volition.

Now you probably understand why i support the palestinians all the way.

That's it? A few isolated incidents? Come on aeon, that happens in EVERY military. Hell, Clayton Matchee, a member of the Canadian Airborne, captured, tortured, and murdered a Somali civilian. Were his actions an indication of the mindset of the Canadian Airborne, or for that matter, the Canadian Government? No, they were not.

No problem, first of all you said, we were more evolved, which is why i brought this, to show a different point of view, to prove that we are not better than them, by going in middle east based on a lie, killing innoncent peoples.

once again aeon, your opinion. That said, we don't go to Afghanistan and "kill innocent people". We go to rebuild Afghanistan. If some moron decides to shoot at us, we shoot back. The whole foundation for our Rules of Engagement (ROEs) in Afghanistan is; fire only if fired upon. But then again, i'm sure you knew that right?

You can say whatever you want, but you can't refute robert papes work, you are soldier, what are your knowledge on this subject? none at all, you take your information from western media? that is a damn joke, get inform. period.

You never did offer me anything to refute my stance. You and Mr. Pape claim that religion has no bearing in Islamic terrorism. I then ask why all the religious overtones, and the blatant claims that they're doing gods worK? Answer that.

Listen up chicken-bastard( you prefer this one right?) OUSAMA BEN LADEN,period.

Chicken-bastard? I'm the bastard son of a chicken? I...guess that's better...but I mean...wow....you need to work on both your debating skills and verbal wit aeon.

Like i said, fbi were the first one who criticized the bush administration on the war on terror.

Ok so let me see if i've got this straight, according to aeon:

The United States is a corrupt, ignorant, chicken-bastard, lying Government, that invaded Afghanistan and Iraq on lies that their intelligence agencies made up, with exception to the FBI who knows everything and are never wrong notwithstanding the fact that they're a key component of the U.S. intelligence community whom - as a collective - lied and/or made up the data that eventually induced said invasions.

Is that about right aeon?

That doesnt matter the claim by ousama ben laden was well sourced by wikipedia, nice try.

The f.uck man. I'm still after three posts, no closer to understanding WHY YOU LINKED ME THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE My god, it's like dealing with a simpleton...

Lol, pretty funny those mi6, cia, mossad.

You put WAY too much stock in peoples opinions.

Ousama ben laden

Osama Bin Laden. Sit down.

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: Palestinian hero kidnapped israeli soldier

You call it oppression. I call it retaliating for acts of agression. The oppression would stop if the acts of aggression stopped. Simple. To the point.

That is prettty totalitarian behavior, listen to us, or you die.Be with the axis of ignorants, and you will have the chance to live your life,and have a job. if agression, oppression, violating human rights to all palestinians, stealing illegal territory would stop then agression (which is pretty funny, when you look at the statistic, it is easy to say who is the agressor) would end. simple as that.

This is exactly the same, as a father who beat his child for 18 years, and then for the father to stop beating the child, the youngboy has to stop being agressive.

35 years. I'm glad you used that broad a timeframe. It gives me plenty of ammo to use. You think the World turned a blind eye when Egypt and Syria launched the Yom Kippur War? Hell, along the Suez Canal 500 Israeli soldiers were attacked by over 80,000 Egyptians. The whole goal of the War was to catch Israel unprepared on a holy day, and utterly conquer them. Israel stomped the two-front attack and sent the Arabs running however. My point however is, how can you expect Israel to just sit around and take treatment like this? Sneak attacks, suicide bombings, rocket attacks. No aeon, any Nation that just took it would be a Nation of idiots. Idiots Israeli's are not. Furthermore do you honestly expect the Western World to just roll over and pretend that all the Nations surrounding Israle are bent on destroying them? Especially when they've proven it numerous times during the last 50 or so years. With regard to us having a "bunch of ignorant right wing moron, who has no clue what is going on in the world", that's your opinion aeon. And if you're any benchmark as to what it means to NOT be an ignorant moron, then we're all pretty much doomed.

You are master to turn a subject to a nutpoint, what the hell this has to do with i said?

Calm down. I wasn't doing a number comparison aeon. I was however pointing out the difference in the deaths. If some Palestinians is killed by an apache gunship shooting at militants, well, as sad as that is, he's a casualty of war. 4 innocent school children blatantly murdered, they aren't casualties of War. They're victims of slow, deliberate, attemps at genocide aeon. I'll reiterate; I support Israel, who I will admit kill innocents, but do so by chance rather than vile volition.

What you are saying, the whole palestine, is a war zone, and israel,don't touch any of it, cause we will have the right to kill any of you.

That's it? A few isolated incidents? Come on aeon, that happens in EVERY military. Hell, Clayton Matchee, a member of the Canadian Airborne, captured, tortured, and murdered a Somali civilian. Were his actions an indication of the mindset of the Canadian Airborne, or for that matter, the Canadian Government? No, they were not.

Well the 4 israeli children killed was 4 years ago, that was an isolated incidents wasnt??

once again aeon, your opinion. That said, we don't go to Afghanistan and "kill innocent people". We go to rebuild Afghanistan. If some moron decides to shoot at us, we shoot back. The whole foundation for our Rules of Engagement (ROEs) in Afghanistan is; fire only if fired upon. But then again, i'm sure you knew that right?

What did you rebuild in afganisthan?? nothing at all, i again say we are not better than them, actually we are worst than them.

You never did offer me anything to refute my stance. You and Mr. Pape claim that religion has no bearing in Islamic terrorism. I then ask why all the religious overtones, and the blatant claims that they're doing gods worK? Answer that.

And what evidence do you have they are doing god's work?? who told you that?

Ok so let me see if i've got this straight, according to aeon:

The United States is a corrupt, ignorant, chicken-bastard, lying Government, that invaded Afghanistan and Iraq on lies that their intelligence agencies made up, with exception to the FBI who knows everything and are never wrong notwithstanding the fact that they're a key component of the U.S. intelligence community whom - as a collective - lied and/or made up the data that eventually induced said invasions.

Is that about right aeon?

I've never said FBI knew everything, none of those agency made up the data that eventually triggered those invasions, the administrations did.

You put WAY too much stock in peoples opinions.

Ousama ben laden

Osama Bin Laden. Sit down.

That is your own opinion, and Ousama ben laden is in french, so you can go "'enough said""

 

[Just the Facts]

Re: RE: Palestinian hero kidnapped israeli soldier

stealing illegal territory would stop then agression (which is pretty funny, when you look at the statistic, it is easy to say who is the agressor) would end. simple as that.

What if it's not stealing. What if it's taking back what was stolen from you.

 

[aeon]

Re: RE: Palestinian hero kidnapped israeli soldier

stealing illegal territory would stop then agression (which is pretty funny, when you look at the statistic, it is easy to say who is the agressor) would end. simple as that.

What if it's not stealing. What if it's taking back what was stolen from you.

Stolen by who, and more importantly taking from what part of history exactly?