Though I could say there is no conclusive evidence saying he would not have excepted aid from the USA if successful, I think there is no evidence saying he was anti-American, nor the idea's of the the American revolution.
Orange Order and Orange Men in Canada
- Thread starter Jersay
- Start date
Re: RE: Orange Order and Oran
I don't understand what you are saying again there.
I don't think "Canada Was the Ideas of the American revolution". The only reason we even really fought for those idea's in upper Canada was the influx of the called "late loyalists" from the USA.
BitWhys said:
I don't understand what you are saying again there.
I don't think "Canada Was the Ideas of the American revolution". The only reason we even really fought for those idea's in upper Canada was the influx of the called "late loyalists" from the USA.
RE: Orange Order and Oran
perhaps the irish should have scotland too then finder? considering the scotti tribe are irish....nah that arguement is about as relevant as chucking every whit american off the continent and giving it back to the indians as the "united tribes of america", nope not gonna happen.
as I say, the problem I have with either side is they ARE BOTH INCREADIBLY subjective even when they arnt trying to be, you just did it with your "united ireland" rubbish, exactly how united was ireland before this eh?, not very, if they were theyd have a co-heisive dfence against the marauding english...nah youve slipped up my friend, aint gonna happen, what are you gonna do? physically remove the protestant majority?, wont happen, the world wont let that happen I'm afraid.
if anything, northern ireland will become it's own country, plain nd simple, while I am not a loyalist, or a unionist, I understand both sides, the unionists seem to want to stir up trouble with marhes, throw the fact their on "british" soil at the faces of the republicans, but they'll never change, as I say, go to Glasgow, you'll find that out.
And the republicans, well, they seem to be ignoring the fact that the other party are human beings, and are infact in the majority, calling for a united ireland when the majority dont want it, these ideas usually being whipped up by irish nationals abroad, I'm sorry it wont happen, not without genocide, want that on your hands do you?, besides, it'll all be a united states of europe soon anyways
perhaps the irish should have scotland too then finder? considering the scotti tribe are irish....nah that arguement is about as relevant as chucking every whit american off the continent and giving it back to the indians as the "united tribes of america", nope not gonna happen.
as I say, the problem I have with either side is they ARE BOTH INCREADIBLY subjective even when they arnt trying to be, you just did it with your "united ireland" rubbish, exactly how united was ireland before this eh?, not very, if they were theyd have a co-heisive dfence against the marauding english...nah youve slipped up my friend, aint gonna happen, what are you gonna do? physically remove the protestant majority?, wont happen, the world wont let that happen I'm afraid.
if anything, northern ireland will become it's own country, plain nd simple, while I am not a loyalist, or a unionist, I understand both sides, the unionists seem to want to stir up trouble with marhes, throw the fact their on "british" soil at the faces of the republicans, but they'll never change, as I say, go to Glasgow, you'll find that out.
And the republicans, well, they seem to be ignoring the fact that the other party are human beings, and are infact in the majority, calling for a united ireland when the majority dont want it, these ideas usually being whipped up by irish nationals abroad, I'm sorry it wont happen, not without genocide, want that on your hands do you?, besides, it'll all be a united states of europe soon anyways
Re: RE: Orange Order and Oran
No but a lot of Scottish settlers live in Northern Ireland! If you have ever listened to a word I have said in the past I have never said that the Irish should ever invade other nations like that of the British did to them. Heavens knows what the British the masters of imperialism would most likely cry.
Anyhow, my views on the Scotts are pretty good. I think they are doing a good job with there government and if they chose to stay in the United Kingdom thats up to them. They has self determination currently I would say, and I think you would agree with that as well. The Welsh also have a certain degree of self determination as well but not to the extent of the Scotts.
Daz_Hockey said:
No but a lot of Scottish settlers live in Northern Ireland! If you have ever listened to a word I have said in the past I have never said that the Irish should ever invade other nations like that of the British did to them. Heavens knows what the British the masters of imperialism would most likely cry.
Anyhow, my views on the Scotts are pretty good. I think they are doing a good job with there government and if they chose to stay in the United Kingdom thats up to them. They has self determination currently I would say, and I think you would agree with that as well. The Welsh also have a certain degree of self determination as well but not to the extent of the Scotts.
RE: Orange Order and Oran
Figure of speech my man, not a literal suggestion that the irish in any way claim scotland, far from it. See that's also where it becomes hazy, Scotland was ruled by the Picts not the irish scotti's, thats just my point.
What EXACTLY is imperialism anyhow?, do you know who ACTUALLY did most of the colonisation?. The chance was there, Britain took it, so it happened after a consorted effort by the english to beat the irish......thats war my man, winner takes the spoils, Britain won, Ireland lost get over it.
as you will surely know it was mostly scottish and irish settlers that made up the bulk of the whites in the british empire any way. I just will never understand, you blaitantly were not born then, neither I, we are all different countries now, configurations change, why still beat the english with a stick which, frankly is only as a result of your subjective veiws any way.
Just an oppressed view, would the irish think badly if they were the british? no.....or if they were an outside party of the time?....probably not also, because you must respect that during that time britain was doing something RIGHT, maybe you may not think so, nor history, but it was right at the time.
but finally, please stop using this "british masters of imperialism" we arnt like that anymore, like the germans arnt Nazis, it's offensive, and quite obviously a fair number of the supossed "oppressed" nationals do not agree with you neither.........strangly it only ever seems to be exhiled irish people, and as I say, I dont class Britains rule over ireland as anything wrong, we simply saw it as uniting these isles
Figure of speech my man, not a literal suggestion that the irish in any way claim scotland, far from it. See that's also where it becomes hazy, Scotland was ruled by the Picts not the irish scotti's, thats just my point.
What EXACTLY is imperialism anyhow?, do you know who ACTUALLY did most of the colonisation?. The chance was there, Britain took it, so it happened after a consorted effort by the english to beat the irish......thats war my man, winner takes the spoils, Britain won, Ireland lost get over it.
as you will surely know it was mostly scottish and irish settlers that made up the bulk of the whites in the british empire any way. I just will never understand, you blaitantly were not born then, neither I, we are all different countries now, configurations change, why still beat the english with a stick which, frankly is only as a result of your subjective veiws any way.
Just an oppressed view, would the irish think badly if they were the british? no.....or if they were an outside party of the time?....probably not also, because you must respect that during that time britain was doing something RIGHT, maybe you may not think so, nor history, but it was right at the time.
but finally, please stop using this "british masters of imperialism" we arnt like that anymore, like the germans arnt Nazis, it's offensive, and quite obviously a fair number of the supossed "oppressed" nationals do not agree with you neither.........strangly it only ever seems to be exhiled irish people, and as I say, I dont class Britains rule over ireland as anything wrong, we simply saw it as uniting these isles
Re: RE: Orange Order and Oran
Yeah, Presbyterian Scots were settled in Ireland on plantations to keep the "wild Irish" in line. This was especially prevalent in the North, which was once the most rebellious area of Ireland. Indeed, the area around Dublin was known as "the Pale", and was considered civilized under British control. The area outside that was "beyond the Pale" or completely out of control.
The plantation Scots did a pretty good job in the north, considering civilized Dublin is now republican, and the north stays more British than Britain.
BTW, those Protestant plantation Scots would include some of my ancestors.........
Yeah, Presbyterian Scots were settled in Ireland on plantations to keep the "wild Irish" in line. This was especially prevalent in the North, which was once the most rebellious area of Ireland. Indeed, the area around Dublin was known as "the Pale", and was considered civilized under British control. The area outside that was "beyond the Pale" or completely out of control.
The plantation Scots did a pretty good job in the north, considering civilized Dublin is now republican, and the north stays more British than Britain.
BTW, those Protestant plantation Scots would include some of my ancestors.........
Re: RE: Orange Order and Oran
Same here, my father is a Limey, plus my Grandmother is a Orange Northern Irish Women and the rest of my family more or less Green.
Colpy said:
Same here, my father is a Limey, plus my Grandmother is a Orange Northern Irish Women and the rest of my family more or less Green.
Anyhow for anyone who has been to the republic, British or otherwise they can seee Sectarian violance, well, just isn't there. British and American (as well as some Irish) Pop Culture is everywhere. If Northern Ireland joined the Republic the fears of the Orange men would not come true. BUT as they force the violance in the north they would most likely try become worse then they are now.
If the Orange men and there like would grow up and let an Seculer Irish Republic form there would be no fears of Prot repression.
If the Orange men and there like would grow up and let an Seculer Irish Republic form there would be no fears of Prot repression.
Finder said:
What do you keep bringing England into this for? England has never invaded Ireland. Ireland was ruled by the British, not the English, whereas the English are STILL ruled by the British, so the Irish are more independent than the English are. England isn't an independent nation.
However, the Republic of Ireland is an independent nation, and Northern Ireland is rightfully a part of the United Kingdom due to the democratically expressed wishes of its people.
Re: RE: Orange Order and Oran
And the Welsh and Scots are more independent than the English. The Welsh have their own Assembly, the Scots their own Parliament, but what do the English have? Nothing. We're just ruled by the British and have no say in our own affairs whereas the British Government has allowed the Celtic nations to have a little say in their own affairs.
Finder said:
And the Welsh and Scots are more independent than the English. The Welsh have their own Assembly, the Scots their own Parliament, but what do the English have? Nothing. We're just ruled by the British and have no say in our own affairs whereas the British Government has allowed the Celtic nations to have a little say in their own affairs.
Britain
The Times July 01, 2006
Carnival times as Orangemen are sold to tourists
By David Sharrock, Ireland Correspondent
UNDER government plans it could become “Orangefest” but to its opponents “Bigotfest” would better describe the columns of men in bowler hats marching through the streets of Northern Ireland.
A decision to spend more than £100,000 on turning the most important day of the Province’s Protestant marching season into a big carnival and tourism event was strongly criticised yesterday by nationalists.
July 12, the anniversary of the 1690 Battle of the Boyne, when William of Orange (who became King William III) defeated the Catholic King James II, is marked every year in Northern Ireland by parades organised by the Orange Order.
For centuries it has been a focus of division, described by its critics as an exercise in Protestant triumphalism. In more recent years it has become synonymous with the Drumcree protests, provoking rioting and extensive criminal damage.
But, with the Government urging Unionists to meet a November deadline to share power with Sinn Fein and complete the objectives of the 1998 Good Friday agreement, it may not be entirely coincidental that taxpayers’ money is being spent on the highly contentious event.
The biggest parade takes place in Belfast on July 12, a public holiday. Restaurants and shops close, and many Roman Catholics — and increasing numbers of Protestants — leave the city. But the Government believes that the investment could change all that.
David Hanson, the Northern Ireland Social Development Minister, said that he had approved funding of £104,000 for a new development officer to promote the positive aspects of the parade. He said that he understood why there were negative perceptions about the Orange Order but that Belfast was about to experience rapid growth in retail business and tourism.
“It is disappointing that during the marching season the city centre and some of the main arterial routes close down or are abandoned by those who do not feel comfortable with the parades,” Mr Hanson said. “I believe that the time is right to see whether the Orange Order can achieve a broader understanding and acceptance of Orange culture and tradition across the community.”
But Alex Maskey, a former Lord Mayor of Belfast and a senior Sinn Fein member, said: “It is unacceptable that the British Government should fund an organisation which continues to force its anti-Catholic parades through Catholic areas. July 12 for many nationalists in Belfast represents domination and sectarian violence.”
William Humphrey, an Orangeman and vice-chairman of the Belfast County Grand Master’s advisory committee, said there was “huge potential” to develop the parades to attract visitors.Drew Nelson, the Grand Secretary of the Orange Order, said the annual event generated at least £6 million. Two years ago he led an Orange delegation to the Notting Hill Carnival, and last year was in the Basque Country to observe parades. “We learnt lessons from those, the most important of which is that civic involvement is vital,” he said.
thetimesonline.co.uk
The Times July 01, 2006
Carnival times as Orangemen are sold to tourists
By David Sharrock, Ireland Correspondent
UNDER government plans it could become “Orangefest” but to its opponents “Bigotfest” would better describe the columns of men in bowler hats marching through the streets of Northern Ireland.
A decision to spend more than £100,000 on turning the most important day of the Province’s Protestant marching season into a big carnival and tourism event was strongly criticised yesterday by nationalists.
July 12, the anniversary of the 1690 Battle of the Boyne, when William of Orange (who became King William III) defeated the Catholic King James II, is marked every year in Northern Ireland by parades organised by the Orange Order.
For centuries it has been a focus of division, described by its critics as an exercise in Protestant triumphalism. In more recent years it has become synonymous with the Drumcree protests, provoking rioting and extensive criminal damage.
But, with the Government urging Unionists to meet a November deadline to share power with Sinn Fein and complete the objectives of the 1998 Good Friday agreement, it may not be entirely coincidental that taxpayers’ money is being spent on the highly contentious event.
The biggest parade takes place in Belfast on July 12, a public holiday. Restaurants and shops close, and many Roman Catholics — and increasing numbers of Protestants — leave the city. But the Government believes that the investment could change all that.
David Hanson, the Northern Ireland Social Development Minister, said that he had approved funding of £104,000 for a new development officer to promote the positive aspects of the parade. He said that he understood why there were negative perceptions about the Orange Order but that Belfast was about to experience rapid growth in retail business and tourism.
“It is disappointing that during the marching season the city centre and some of the main arterial routes close down or are abandoned by those who do not feel comfortable with the parades,” Mr Hanson said. “I believe that the time is right to see whether the Orange Order can achieve a broader understanding and acceptance of Orange culture and tradition across the community.”
But Alex Maskey, a former Lord Mayor of Belfast and a senior Sinn Fein member, said: “It is unacceptable that the British Government should fund an organisation which continues to force its anti-Catholic parades through Catholic areas. July 12 for many nationalists in Belfast represents domination and sectarian violence.”
William Humphrey, an Orangeman and vice-chairman of the Belfast County Grand Master’s advisory committee, said there was “huge potential” to develop the parades to attract visitors.Drew Nelson, the Grand Secretary of the Orange Order, said the annual event generated at least £6 million. Two years ago he led an Orange delegation to the Notting Hill Carnival, and last year was in the Basque Country to observe parades. “We learnt lessons from those, the most important of which is that civic involvement is vital,” he said.
thetimesonline.co.uk
Re: RE: Orange Order and Oran
a "Limey" lol, it's only savages that called us that and the record of time would back us up, Vitamin C is vital to ward off all manner of infections and you still beat us with it lol.
it's the clear distinction between british and English or scottish or welsh I think many north americans have the problem with actually. It's a little bit insulting.
But Ireland have all the land they signed for, no more, no less, they could have more but they chose not to take it, why blame the british or the english for that?.....and the orangemen, well theyre just hate mongers
Finder said:
a "Limey" lol, it's only savages that called us that and the record of time would back us up, Vitamin C is vital to ward off all manner of infections and you still beat us with it lol.
it's the clear distinction between british and English or scottish or welsh I think many north americans have the problem with actually. It's a little bit insulting.
But Ireland have all the land they signed for, no more, no less, they could have more but they chose not to take it, why blame the british or the english for that?.....and the orangemen, well theyre just hate mongers
Re: RE: Orange Order and Oran
Umm you guys have always controled the parliment. Saying that the English do not control the UK parliment is like saying the Republicans don't control the American government. They just do, but it appears as if both claim otherwise.
However I guess there is a grain of truth in what you are saying. If you are going to make each "kingdom" it's own administration like a province, you might as well do the same for england.
One of the biggest things in the United Kingdom which needs to be taken care of is the problem with the north of Ireland. I know the UK is trying to solve the problem but the power sharing assebmly has to open up some time to solve this problem with or without the unionists, and the UK should be telling this to the unionists. The IRA has disarmed and lived up to there end of the bargin now it is time for the unionists to do the same. The petty points which the unionists bring up to not form a government is sad and should easyly be walked around in the process to peace. But this makes me feel as if the unionists do not want peace and to work with the repubican and catholics who have come to the table in good faith.
Blackleaf said:
Umm you guys have always controled the parliment. Saying that the English do not control the UK parliment is like saying the Republicans don't control the American government. They just do, but it appears as if both claim otherwise.
However I guess there is a grain of truth in what you are saying. If you are going to make each "kingdom" it's own administration like a province, you might as well do the same for england.
One of the biggest things in the United Kingdom which needs to be taken care of is the problem with the north of Ireland. I know the UK is trying to solve the problem but the power sharing assebmly has to open up some time to solve this problem with or without the unionists, and the UK should be telling this to the unionists. The IRA has disarmed and lived up to there end of the bargin now it is time for the unionists to do the same. The petty points which the unionists bring up to not form a government is sad and should easyly be walked around in the process to peace. But this makes me feel as if the unionists do not want peace and to work with the repubican and catholics who have come to the table in good faith.
in 1965 we moved from a very Catholic environment in East end Montreal to a little 'Orange' town outside of Kingston, Ontario. The local Protestant minister came to our joint Grade 5/6 class once a week for religious studies. Two of us were Catholic and were sent out to stand in the hall at attention during these sessions. If either of us Catholics fidgeted a passing teacher would give us a whack with the ruler across the backside or hand. When the minister finished he would always give the two of us a hateful glare as he left the room. Back then I still believed in God and knew I was staring into the eyes of the devil's agent himself.
Our world was divided into Cathilics and Protestants. In Montreal there had been Jews but I was never sure what they were when I was a kid. It's strange how things still creep into our feelings today. I still always root against the Toronto Maple Leafs in hockey becauses they were the team of all those Protestant kids in that little town.
Our world was divided into Cathilics and Protestants. In Montreal there had been Jews but I was never sure what they were when I was a kid. It's strange how things still creep into our feelings today. I still always root against the Toronto Maple Leafs in hockey becauses they were the team of all those Protestant kids in that little town.
athabaska said:
Read a book awhile back on how the transformation of Quebec society has gone from an Catholic vs Prot to an Anglo Vs Francophone one. however there is not much difference between the two. But Quebec has become more of a seculer nation.
Edit: opps that was a slip. Nation, province, culture...