Office of Religious Freedom Closes March 31

Machjo

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Or perhaps you accept it on the basis of evidence that society is better for than being alone in the world.

How can you be alone if society no longer exists. No society means extinction of the species.

You accept as faith that the species is worth preserving.

No, that's not what I said, or even implied. You're really reaching here, trying to justify your claims about faith. Certainly the members of any society would have to believe it's worth preserving or it would soon cease to exist, but that's got nothing to do with faith, that's a practical matter of survival. You need to be careful how you use a word like faith, it has layers of meaning and it's easy to be led astray into fallacious reasoning by mixing them. I could say I have complete faith that the sun will rise in the morning, for instance, or more correctly that the part of the planet I'm on will rotate towards it, but since it's done so every morning of my life so far, that's a perfectly reasonable thing to believe, there's solid evidence for it and no reason to think it won't keep on happening. That's not the kind of faith you're talking about.

So you accept as faith that the species is worth preserving. Can you prove scientifically that it's worth preserving?

What makes you believe the species is worth preserving?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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How can you be alone if society no longer exists. No society means extinction of the species.

You accept as faith that the species is worth preserving.
Wow, you're getting wound up.

Why does it bother you so much that Dex and I choose not to buy your favorite fairy tale?

We aren't at all bothered that you choose to believe it.
 
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Machjo

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Wow, you're getting wound up.

Why does it bother you so much that Dex and I choose not to buy your favorite fairy tale?

We aren't at all bothered that you choose to believe it.

I'm bothered that you don't believe it. The question was, is belief or disbelief a choice. A person cannot will himself to believe in God. I challenge you to try to convince yourself that God exists. You just either do or you don't.
 

Machjo

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You need a link to the fact you love your children?



Islam don't see the world like we do.

1. Whoever said I profess Islám? I said I believe in the Qur'án,not that I profess Islám. I believe in the texts of other past religions too.

2. To love one's children is separate from the philosophical belief that we must nurture them. Besides, what is love? Nothing more than hormones in the brain?

Yes, that's what I said. The question was why.


OK, whatever.

Typo. I'm not bothered. Sorry.

But at least you acknowledge that you cannot just will yourself to believe on God.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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1. Whoever said I profess Islám? I said I believe in the Qur'án,not that I profess Islám. I believe in the texts of other past religions too.

2. To love one's children is separate from the philosophical belief that we must nurture them. Besides, what is love? Nothing more than hormones in the brain?



Typo. I'm not bothered. Sorry.

But at least you acknowledge that you cannot just will yourself to believe on God.
I acknowledge no such thing. I note that you're trying to put words in my mouth.

Wouldn't it just be easier to declare victory and high-five yourself?
 

Machjo

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I acknowledge no such thing. I note that you're trying to put words in my mouth.

Wouldn't it just be easier to declare victory and high-five yourself?

Interesting. Maybe we understand belief differently? Is it possible that we are both right but only because we define 'belief' differently? I say this because obviously my experience pertaining to 'belief' is different from yours.

I can distinguish between two kinds of belief: certain and uncertain.

For example, I might believe that the government ought to adopt a particular policy, though I might still allow for some doubt, the possibility that I can be wrong.

Then there is certain belief, like the question of whether there is a floor under my feet.

As for the first kind of belief, my belief will be influenced by how I understand or interpret the latter category of beliefs. Though my beliefs can be modified through discussion, reading, experience, etc., and might even change frequently, at least the way I understand them, I do not choose what to believe since my uncertain beliefs are circumscribed by my ever evolving understanding of my certain beliefs.

As for my certain beliefs, these are beliefs of which I have no doubt. In my case at least, a belief in God falls in this category. Even my certain beliefs can change over time. I once had no doubt about the non-existence of God. Now I have no doubt about his existence. At one point, the question bothered me greatly for about a month. I did not know what to believe, yet even then not knowing was itself a certain belief. In other words, I had no doubt that I did not know the answer to the question.

At all three stages, though I could indirectly influence a certain belief through questionning, reading, discussion, etc. my certain beliefs, like my uncertain ones, could be influenced and changes by these, the main difference being that while my certain beliefs could influence my uncertain ones and must inevitably do so since they act as the point of reference, my uncertain ones could not influence my certain ones. My observations and how I understand them could. I could choose what to read, what to discuss, and what to observe or analyse, but these would influence my beliefs independently of my control.

Maybe you just would not call these beliefs but rather world views or something else. Anyway,there is something that I call beliefs and that you might call something else that from my experience I do not get to choose in the same way that I can choose my actions.

Maybe another example: I'm starving, I believe theft is wrong, yet I still choose to steal a loaf of bread. I might try to convince myself that I was right in stealing it, but it would require significant mental gymnastics on my part to convince myself of it. It's not like I could click my fingers and poof, I don't feel guilty about stealing anymore.

A guilty conscience might be an example of this. If one can choose his vore beliefs, ge could sppease his guilty conscience by just adopting a different set of beliefs.
I remember reading stories of neonazis having to go through a process of deeo douk searching to abandon their prejudices. If belief as I understand the term were a choice, abandoning their prejudices would be an easy task.
 

Dexter Sinister

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Oct 1, 2004
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What makes you believe the species is worth preserving?
I didn't say I did, and in fact most days I don't believe that, but that doesn't mean I don't value the quality of my own life and the lives of those I care about. That's the meaning of life for me; we have to make our own meanings, and they're to be found in our relationships with other people, what we can do to, with, for, and sometimes in spite of, those we care about. That's all there is in my considered opinion, and it seems self-evident to me that at least it's all we know *for sure* that there is. It's logically possible that this creator deity most people believe in exists and has some interest in and purposes for us, but the evidence doesn't particularly point that way.

In the larger picture, most days I think we're a plague on the planet and it would be better off without us. The geological record shows there have been five mass extinctions in the history of life on earth, and the evidence indicates we're causing a sixth one. The end result for all species is extinction anyway, the vast majority of species that have ever lived--99% by some estimates--are extinct, and eventually it'll happen to us too. But in the meantime, I think we should try to be nice to each other--and I mean everybody, all 7+ billion of us--and enjoy life while we have it.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Interesting. Maybe we understand belief differently? Is it possible that we are both right but only because we define 'belief' differently? I say this because obviously my experience pertaining to 'belief' is different from yours.
Whatever. I couldn't be bothered to read your post because you're off into "I win!" country.