Obama’s LGBT executive order will not provide religious exemption

[mentalfloss]

What a dictator eh?

Obama’s LGBT executive order will not provide religious exemption

President Obama, resisting calls from several prominent faith leaders, will not include a new exemption for religiously affiliated government contractors when he issues an executive order Monday barring discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity, the White House said Friday.

Obama announced last month that he would sign such an order after concluding that Congress was not going to act on a broader measure prohibiting discrimination based on sexual discrimination or gender identity by companies.

Since then, faith leaders have urged him to include an exemption for government contractors with a religious affiliation, such as some social service agencies.

White House officials said Friday that the new executive order would not include such an exception. But Obama will preserve an exemption put in place by former president George W. Bush that allows religiously affiliated contractors to favor employees of a certain religion in making hiring decisions.

Gay rights organizations have criticized that earlier exemption, and they celebrated news Friday that Obama would not be broadening it.

“With the strokes of a pen, the president will have a very real and immediate impact on the lives of millions of LGBT people across the country,” said Chad Griffin, president of the Human Rights Campaign, a gay rights group.

Michael Wear, a former Obama faith adviser who had organized a letter to Obama urging him to include a religious exemption, said he was gratified that Obama preserved the Bush exemption. But he said that because “faith-based contractors will not be completely exempt from the president’s executive order,” it will be important to provide “clarity” on what behavior is consistent with it.

“We risk opening up the doors for litigation that leaves both LGBT Americans and religious organizations uncertain and unprotected,” he wrote in a statement.

The order protecting lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people is the latest administration policy to become embroiled in a debate over religious rights. In a blow to Obama’s health-care law last month, the Supreme Court ruled that family-owned businesses do not have to offer contraceptive coverage that conflicts with the owners’ religious beliefs.

White House says Obama’s LGBT executive order will not provide religious exemption - The Washington Post

 

[BaalsTears]

How many people will the executive order affect?

 

[captain morgan]

How many people will the executive order affect?

That number will be directly related to the number people that can no longer receive the services from any religious organizations that withdraw themselves from providing these social services to the public at large

 

[coldstream]

Take that to its logical conclusion.. in the case of the Catholic Church which deems the condition of homosexuality as a grave psychological and moral disorder.. and its practice as a mortal sin.. its culture as an intrinsic evil.. would have to accept open homosexuals into the priesthood, even though they are specifically prohibited now.. and the Church has had an appalling experience of child abuse predominately inflicted by closeted homosexual clergy.

It can't do that.. and it won't do that. On pain of imprisonment and persecution it won't comply. Do you think Obama can impose it on religious a institutions, and especially one as prominent as the RCC. His power rests only with those institutions he can control.

This is another of Obama's attempts to create a legacy. All of the hope of 'The First Black President' has dissolved into mediocrity, irrelevance and confusion in virtually every sphere of political policy.. economic, moral, social, domestic, international.

He just was another political crony.. a neocon/neoliberal Free market ideologue.. in Wall Street's back pocket. A man without the intellectual or moral character and independence to rise above the conventions of time.. one inundated with the cancers of moral relativism, radical individualism, rampant gratification.. Free Trade.

His Presidency was indistinguishable from that of the litany of futility of failure that has marked every U.S. Presidency of the last 45 years.

I honestly think Obama knows this won't pass Constitutional challenges.He's spitting in the wind.. and his Presidency will be quickly forgotten and indistinguishable from that of his immediate predecessors.. as one ridden with incompetence and petty prejudice deserves.

 

[mentalfloss]

I give religions about 100 more years before we finally live in a secular society.

 

[captain morgan]

I give religions about 100 more years before we finally live in a secular society.

They have lasted the last couple of thousand of years to date... I don't see too much substance in your prediction here

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Take that to its logical conclusion.. in the case of the Catholic Church which deems the condition of homosexuality as a grave psychological and moral disorder.. and its practice as a mortal sin.. its culture as an intrinsic evil.. would have to accept open homosexuals into the priesthood, even though they are specifically prohibited now.. and the Church has had an appalling experience of child abuse predominately inflicted by closeted homosexual clergy.

It can't do that.. and it won't do that. On pain of imprisonment and persecution it won't comply. Do you think Obama can impose it on religious a institutions, and especially one as prominent as the RCC. His power rests only with those institutions he can control.

This is another of Obama's attempts to create a legacy. All of the hope of 'The First Black President' has dissolved into mediocrity, irrelevance and confusion in virtually every sphere of political policy.. economic, moral, social, domestic, international.

He just was another political crony.. a neocon/neoliberal Free market ideologue.. in Wall Street's back pocket. A man without the intellectual or moral character and independence to rise above the conventions of time.. one inundated with the cancers of moral relativism, radical individualism, rampant gratification.. Free Trade.

His Presidency was indistinguishable from that of the litany of futility of failure that has marked every U.S. Presidency of the last 45 years.

I honestly think Obama knows this won't pass Constitutional challenges.He's spitting in the wind.. and his Presidency will be quickly forgotten and indistinguishable from that of his immediate predecessors.. as one ridden with incompetence and petty prejudice deserves.

Actually, we've been over this ground before. Contrary to your nightmare scenario, we allow religions to discriminate in purely religious areas, such as clergy and spokespersons. It is when a religious organisation enters into the stream of commerce that it is required to obey the rules of commerce, which includes non-discrimination.

If the Catholic church or any other church wants to continue to practice invidious discrimination in the name of a god who told it to love, it is free to do so. It just can't take government contracts.

Render unto Caesar, and all that. . .

 

[Sal]

I give religions about 100 more years before we finally live in a secular society.

They have lasted the last couple of thousand of years to date... I don't see too much substance in your prediction here

I think there is a valid point here.

Up until now, religion has greatly influenced law. Now, at least in the last 50 years we are slowly coming to the enlightened state of being where we separate them. Homosexuality is not longer outlawed and is recognized as a normal human condition for a percentage of our society.

Take that to its logical conclusion.. in the case of the Catholic Church which deems the condition of homosexuality as a grave psychological and moral disorder..

coldstream, could you please kindly give me a reference for that? I have never heard this and one of my buddies who was in seminary for six years also is unaware of this church stance. He does not agree that this now represents the current day church. Thanks

and its practice as a mortal sin.. its culture as an intrinsic evil..

this part is true, as is all sex outside of marriage so thus all are condemned who have sex who are not joined as one according to church law correct?

a lot of people are going straight to hell no?

 

[gerryh]

I think there is a valid point here.

That prediction has been made in the past. Didn't happen then, ain't gonna happen now.

Up until now, religion has greatly influenced law. Now, at least in the last 50 years we are slowly coming to the enlightened state of being where we separate them.

No, the pendulum is swinging the other way. Now the state is interfering in religion.

coldstream, could you please kindly give me a reference for that? I have never heard this and one of my buddies who was in seminary for six years also is unaware of this church stance. He does not agree that this now represents the current day church. Thanks

He can't. It's wishful thinking on his part.

a lot of people are going straight to hell no?

I guess that depends on who and what you believe.

 

[Spade]

Take that to its logical conclusion.. in the case of the Catholic Church which deems the condition of homosexuality as a grave psychological and moral disorder.. and its practice as a mortal sin.. its culture as an intrinsic evil.. would have to accept open homosexuals into the priesthood, even though they are specifically prohibited now.. and the Church has had an appalling experience of child abuse predominately inflicted by closeted homosexual clergy.

In Father Donald Cozzen's book "The Changing Face of the Priesthood", he estimates that between 23% and 58% of priests in America are homosexual.
The Church and the Homosexual Priest | America Magazine

 

[Sal]

In Father Donald Cozzen's book "The Changing Face of the Priesthood", he estimates that between 23% and 58% of priests in America are homosexual.
The Church and the Homosexual Priest | America Magazine

why such a high number Spade

 

[mentalfloss]

They have lasted the last couple of thousand of years to date... I don't see too much substance in your prediction here

Yea lots have things lasted for thousands of years that we changed in the course of a century.

100 years is enough time.

 

[Goober]

I think there is a valid point here.

Up until now, religion has greatly influenced law. Now, at least in the last 50 years we are slowly coming to the enlightened state of being where we separate them. Homosexuality is not longer outlawed and is recognized as a normal human condition for a percentage of our society.

Sal it was not a bunch of gays and Atheists that brought such a rapid change about.
People with religious beliefs also strode down that very same highway of equal rights.
I would hazard a guess with both gays, a minor percentage, of the population, Atheists a tad more, that this road to equal rights was paved by the majority who had/have religious beliefs.
Oops- Changed my mind, not a guess but Blessedly factual.

 

[Spade]

why such a high number Spade

Likely the discipline of celibacy in the Latin Rite.

 

[Sal]

Sal it was not a bunch of gays and Atheists that brought such a rapid change about.
People with religious beliefs also strode down that very same highway of equal rights.
I would hazard a guess with both gays, a minor percentage, of the population, Atheists a tad more, that this road to equal rights was paved by the majority who had/have religious beliefs.
Oops- Changed my mind, not a guess but Blessedly factual.

I think it was evolution that brought such change. I think it involves the human heart and it's quest for equality and justice. No matter how low we sink, always some manage to keep the world afloat. They aren't the popular ones.

I was not putting down religion.

I do believe the point being made was that in a 100 years it will be a secular society. It may well be.

I was watching a movie today about a fight for change. If it were happening today perhaps to the south of us, those fighting for the rights of the mentally ill would be labelled as leftards and worse actually.

That realization had a profound effect upon me. The fighters were a group of nuns.

thank god for those who view the world not in terms of left or right, believers or non believers, sinners or saints but in terms of right and wrong for those who need, for those who are weak, for those who are victimized by what society considers to be those who are unworthy.

Likely the discipline of celibacy in the Latin Rite.

thanks

 

[Goober]

I think it was evolution that brought such change. I think it involves the human heart and it's quest for equality and justice. No matter how low we sink, always some manage to keep the world afloat. They aren't the popular ones.

I was not putting down religion.

I do believe the point being made was that in a 100 years it will be a secular society. It may well be.

I was watching a movie today about a fight for change. If it were happening today perhaps to the south of us, those fighting for the rights of the mentally ill would be labelled as leftards and worse actually.

That realization had a profound effect upon me. The fighters were a group of nuns.

thank god for those who view the world not in terms of left or right, believers or non believers, sinners or saints but in terms of right and wrong for those who need, for those who are weak, for those who are victimized by what society considers to be those who are unworthy.


thanks

Sal I know you are not the type to slam a group.

 

[Sal]

Sal I know you are not the type to slam a group.

ah thanks Goob,

but, sometimes I am...those are not my finest moments...

it was a strange today...one of those ah, ha moments...the kind that ping your soul

love those moments, wish there were more.

they weren't Catholic nuns...can't remember which church they belonged to, but they sure were feisty

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Yea lots have things lasted for thousands of years that we changed in the course of a century.

100 years is enough time.

Nah, there'll always be people who can't face the world as it is.

 

[Goober]

Nah, there'll always be people who can't face the world as it is.

Well ya can never really tell until you are dead. Then I will ask you to bring me another cold beer.

 

[coldstream]

Actually, we've been over this ground before. Contrary to your nightmare scenario, we allow religions to discriminate in purely religious areas, such as clergy and spokespersons. It is when a religious organisation enters into the stream of commerce that it is required to obey the rules of commerce, which includes non-discrimination.

If the Catholic church or any other church wants to continue to practice invidious discrimination in the name of a god who told it to love, it is free to do so. It just can't take government contracts.

Render unto Caesar, and all that. . .

You must be unaware of some of the initiative to in fact force compliance of religious insitutions to the post modern moral zeitgeist. The Catholic Church in the U.S. is in numerous legal fights to retain its moral integrity.

You miss out on the fundamental character of the New Age. It is in fact a virulent form of Evil for which no negotiation or sovereign 'territory' will be recognized. That is the nature of Evil. It respects no boundaries, gives no quarter.. has no limits on its ambition.

coldstream, could you please kindly give me a reference for that? I have never heard this and one of my buddies who was in seminary for six years also is unaware of this church stance. He does not agree that this now represents the current day church. Thanks

this part is true, as is all sex outside of marriage so thus all are condemned who have sex who are not joined as one according to church law correct?

a lot of people are going straight to hell no?

You can glean it all from this document, which forms a definitive doctrine of homosexuality. It was published by Pope Benedict XVI when he was Prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith in 1985. There are other specific policies on consecrated life excluding people with homosexual orientation (not just practice).. from enrollment in seminaries or ordination as priests.

Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons

You should note that it rejects violence, ostracism, prejudice, slander, intimidation against the homosexuals.. but leaves no doubt as to its fundamental unnatural, disordered and sinful character.

In Father Donald Cozzen's book "The Changing Face of the Priesthood", he estimates that between 23% and 58% of priests in America are homosexual.
The Church and the Homosexual Priest | America Magazine

You have to define your terms first.

If homosexuals refers to those who habitually practice homosexuality it would be much less than that. If it is someone who has had a homosexual encounter sometime in his priesthood, perhaps during a crisis of faith or a point of weakness, that would be something else. If it is those who have a homosexual inclinations.. but have never broken their vows of chastity.. then it is somewhat irrelevant as it is one of many things a priest might covet, but must deny himself to respect his vows of chastity, poverty and obedience.

My guess is the number of habitually practicing homosexuals in the priesthood is relatively small.. maybe in the order of 10% or less. But the Church's efforts is to reduce this last category to zero.