Now Ray Lahey Down to Sleep, He Asks the Lord...

[karrie]

The changing face of the priesthood ... - Google Books

That's not a changing face.

If you are a gay man of the Catholic faith... I mean truly of the faith, truly believing what Catholicism has to say about homosexuality, then you would be very likely to choose the priesthood, or the life of a 'religious', a celibate person who chooses to serve the community in other ways. Being a homosexual is not a sin in the eyes of a church, having sex outside of marriage is. (and I am simply talking dogma here)

It's no secret that the 'right' path for gay men and women of the faith to take was one of celibacy. They simply didn't talk about it in the same terms in the past.

Now... as to your implied assertion by posting this link, that being gay makes one a paedophile (since we are talking about paedophilia in this thread, right?), I think that could use some expanding and sources to back it up as well.

 

[VanIsle]

Paedophiles are attracted to positions of power. Police officers, teachers, little league coaches, priests, pastors, etc. You'll still get paedophiles serving as priests, even if you let them marry.

You can get them anywhere Karrie but places like the priesthood are really wide open playing fields. Teachers to some extent, coaches too, I suppose there must be police officers but I have never heard of any. It's not that marrying stops them. It's that allowing priests to marry lessens the playing field somewhat. Why become a priest if there is no longer a shield to hide under. Closing the door that's been left wide open.

 

[Spade]

To quote from Reverend Donald B, Cozzens’ “The Changing Face of the Priesthood.”

Quote

“Priests, according to this line of thinking, are no more drawn to pedophilia and ephebophilia (the recurrent,intense, sexual interest in post-pubescent youths, generally between the ages of 13 or 14 and 17) than other professionals who work with children and young people. The explanation offers consolation and useful rationalization for those who find the present clerical system compatible with their personal needs, with those who feel the rightness of the system as the clear gift of the Spirit, and those who feel compelled, out of a sense of ecclesial loyalty, to uphold the current system without critical reflection.

“Defenders of the present system see probes of this kind as subversive of the priesthood itself and as thinly disguised attempts to change the present practice and discipline of the Church, especially the discipline of obligatory celibacy for the Latin rite. An open, mature Church, one would think, would welcome reflection and discussion of its policies, practices, and disciplines. These are not matters of revelation or doctrine. Furthermore, to insist that there is simply no correlation between mandatory celibacy and the present crisis over clergy misconduct with minors looks like bureaucratic bullying as long as the Vatican remains opposed to even discussion concerning the systems undergirding the priestly lifestyle. And it is clear that the Vatican does not want even some disciplinary practices, including celibacy, to be discussed and looks upon bishops and priests who call for discussion as dissidents. Bishops will privately acknowledge that Pope John Paul II explicitly forbade them to discuss ‘contraception, abortion, homosexuality, masturbation, a married priesthood or women’s ordination to the priesthood other than to defend the Church’s official teaching.’ “

 

[Kreskin]

I'm a believer that people are better than the worst thing they've ever done. This guy's life, and his family's, are now a train wreck over pictures on his computer. I'm not condoning him keeping or downloading these kind of photos but if he has never harmed a kid then he's paying a very high price for what he has done.

 

[karrie]

An open, mature Church, one would think, would welcome reflection and discussion of its policies, practices, and disciplines.

Like I said, I'd like to see it change. When the reasons people give are so flawed though, that they can't even stick to trying to defend them, or admit they were wrong in making their assertions when questioned directly, then where is the mature, open, discussion?

 

[Spade]

If Rev. Cozzens is correct, and if upwards of 48% of priests are homosexual in preference but not necessarily in practice, then the priesthood does not reflect the general demographic. The priesthood, because of its insistence on "celibacy" in the Latin rite self selects and winnows out those with strong heterosexual needs. We also know, that sexual abuse is widespread, not just in the residential setting or in North America. It is not beyond inference that self-selection because of celibacy is part of the problem.

 

[L Gilbert]

Did you even bother reading my earlier post in reply to you?
I, as a Catholic, would choose to see it come to an end. But we are discussing paedophilia in this thread, and the assertion that celibacy is the cause of paedophilia. You have yet to do anything to back up the claim that it does in any way shape or form, and instead are just bringing up other reasons you personally dislike it.

Feel free to start a thread about the other reasons you dislike celibacy (or pick one of the 50 others you'll likely be able to find searching the forum). But for now, in THIS thread, I'd like to stick to the discussion at hand.

I've spent the better part of my evening googling for statistics on paedophilic abuse rates in priests, and they are the same as the general populace from everything I can find. Has anyone else turned up any stats that say otherwise?

Anna looked around for a while and then I did. Neither of us found anything definitive that showed priests as being more prone than anyone else in positions of power over kids than anyone else.

 

[L Gilbert]

Child Abuse by Christian Priests: Horror, Paedophilia and the Clergy

I read from that link:

"2% of the priest population can be classified as true pedophiles with a three to one preference for boys. This gender attraction is reversed in the general population. [...] 4% of the priest population become sexually involved with adolescents"2.

Here's some more stats:
Pedophile and Child Molester Statistics - Yello Dyno

The numbers look pretty close to me.

Pedophile profiling:
Pedophiles and Their Characteristics

 

[L Gilbert]

again...what does homosexuality have to do with pedophilia. Study's of pedophiles have shown that over 80% of pedohiles are married males.

Exactly. They are different issues.

 

[L Gilbert]

I'm a believer that people are better than the worst thing they've ever done. This guy's life, and his family's, are now a train wreck over pictures on his computer. I'm not condoning him keeping or downloading these kind of photos but if he has never harmed a kid then he's paying a very high price for what he has done.

Good. Anyone that traumatizes a kid for years to life should be suffering.

 

[Kreskin]

Good. Anyone that traumatizes a kid for years to life should be suffering.

I don't disagree. Did he traumatize anyone? I don't know the case entirely.

 

[karrie]

It is not beyond inference that self-selection because of celibacy is part of the problem.

First you would have to prove a 'problem'. No statistic I can find shows any higher rates in the priesthood. Your own statistics show that it is similar to the general population.

edited to add.... 'problem' implies only your assertion that celibacy causes paedophilia.

 

[Spade]

The following is a good analysis of the debate and arguments from both sides.
Priests, pedophilia, and celibacy. - By William Saletan - Slate Magazine

 

[L Gilbert]

If Rev. Cozzens is correct, and if upwards of 48% of priests are homosexual in preference but not necessarily in practice, then the priesthood does not reflect the general demographic. The priesthood, because of its insistence on "celibacy" in the Latin rite self selects and winnows out those with strong heterosexual needs. We also know, that sexual abuse is widespread, not just in the residential setting or in North America. It is not beyond inference that self-selection because of celibacy is part of the problem.

The priesthood is a male dominated scene so where would you expect someone homosexual to go looking for companionship? The YWCA?

 

[L Gilbert]

I don't disagree. Did he traumatize anyone? I don't know the case entirely.

I don't know the specifics either.

 

[Spade]

The priesthood is a male dominated scene so where would you expect someone homosexual to go looking for companionship? The YWCA?

Argument for women and married priests.

 

[karrie]

I don't disagree. Did he traumatize anyone? I don't know the case entirely.

While I will fight tooth and nail to prove that men are not mere animals prone to turning into pedophiles if not granted adequate sexual release, I will equally ferociously fight to make clear the fact that someone who is in possession of child pornography IS participating in the victimization of children. While perhaps he may have possessed this material due to the nature of the cases he was working on, such idiocy is doubtful.

 

[karrie]

Argument for women and married priests.

Once again, what makes you think women and married men are above assaulting children in the same percentages as occurs in the general population? Your assertion that priests only molest because they are predominantly gay continues to fail to be backed up.

 

[Kreskin]

While I will fight tooth and nail to prove that men are not mere animals prone to turning into pedophiles if not granted adequate sexual release, I will equally ferociously fight to make clear the fact that someone who is in possession of child pornography IS participating in the victimization of children. While perhaps he may have possessed this material due to the nature of the cases he was working on, such idiocy is doubtful.

It seems more idiocy than victimization. I'm not defending him but the price he is paying for what he did is steep.

 

[L Gilbert]

The following is a good analysis of the debate and arguments from both sides.
Priests, pedophilia, and celibacy. - By William Saletan - Slate Magazine

So the author thinks that celibacy should stay but it should change. I wonder if anyone has informed the guy that you either are celibate or you aren't (like pregnancy). You either have sexual relations of some sort with someone or you don't. Or does he mean that one should be celibate except under certain circumstances?