North Korea is the Real Threat

[Nosferax]

Why does people always think that capitalism = freedom...
It really doesnt.

Oh I dunno, free markets, freedom of thought/expression, free movement of goods...less taxation, therefore more individualism, not having to obey 1 guy who runs the country...that sorta thing.

I thought everyone knew that....

Freedom of tought/expression has nothing to do with capitalism. Those are much more to do with democracy than capitalism. Free market is more a dream these day than a reality if you consider all the trade barrier and tarif.

Not having to obey 1 guy who run the country??? Try starting a revolution and look what happen if you go against "the man".

Has for less taxation, where do you think those government grant your farmer or industry are receiving come from... Independently of the doctrine you are following you pay taxes.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: North Korea is the Re

The US would love it if Canada had a viable nuke program. To them it would mean we actually care about security, and we would actually be depending on ourselves to defend Canada instead of riding the coattails of US military budgets.

Are you kidding me? The US would not want one of its neighbouring states to have the ability to obliterate parts of the US. The US whining about Canada not doing its share is just rhetoric that is given to the American people so that they can place blame on someone else for the huge defense expenditures.

In reality, how are the spending money or defending us now? I'm sure if something were to happen, the world come, but it isn't like the have military bases here with troops, they aren't flying over and doing patrols. They don't patrol our seacoast within our 200 nm territorial limit.

I would say all those bases around the world helping to defend other countries is costing them more cash than us.

Like I said before, they didn't even let us have a superior jet fighter, let alone nuclear weapons.

 

[Nosferax]

Re: RE: North Korea is the Re

The US would love it if Canada had a viable nuke program. To them it would mean we actually care about security, and we would actually be depending on ourselves to defend Canada instead of riding the coattails of US military budgets.

Are you kidding me? The US would not want one of its neighbouring states to have the ability to obliterate parts of the US. The US whining about Canada not doing its share is just rhetoric that is given to the American people so that they can place blame on someone else for the huge defense expenditures.

In reality, how are the spending money or defending us now? I'm sure if something were to happen, the world come, but it isn't like the have military bases here with troops, they aren't flying over and doing patrols. They don't patrol our seacoast within our 200 nm territorial limit.

I would say all those bases around the world helping to defend other countries is costing them more cash than us.

Like I said before, they didn't even let us have a superior jet fighter, let alone nuclear weapons.

We did have nuclear weapon in the 1950-60. Remember the Bomark Missile... Not much of a weapon, but it WAS equiped with a nuclear warhead (a small one). It was used in combination with the Pinetree system to shoot down russian bomber wing by detonating a small nuclear charge in altitude.

Ironnically they were used as a replacement for the Avro Arrow that was scrapped due to US pressure. They didn't want us to have bigger and better toy than they had at the time.

 

[Nosferax]

Interresting link about the Avro Arrow:

http://www.avroarrow.org/AvroArrow/factualarrow4.html

 

[Jay]

He'd just booted them out along with their puppet, Batista. Whether you like it or not, Jay, things are better for the Cuban people under Castro than were under Batista.

I actually don't believe the Cubans are "better off" with Castro's regime, but I will say I support what Castro did when he over threw the government, but he did so under false pretenses. He never said he was a communist, and was going to set up a communist regime. He said the opposite in fact, and that’s what people expected, they got much worse. Castro could have done things much different, and could have the support of the US if he wanted it.

I think that you have a lot learn about politics, especially about the centre and left of the political system. I really don't give a rat's ass what you "think", I just wish that you'd take the time to learn the facts.

I have learned the facts Rev. Remember I took the online political spectrum test you asked me too? I was right but close to centre, you (as you said) were left of centre, further away from the centre than I was. I understand more about where you’re coming from because of it, but I haven't changed my mind that the left thinks it can spend my money better than I can, and I simply do not believe in high taxation. I know high taxation hasn't anything to do with freedom, and self-determination. You don't seem to mind high taxation. I think heavy taxation is like forced labour, and limits freedom.

But are they a real threat to security? They are isolated, their nuclear production is minimal. Both Korea and it's potential nuclear customers are under the constant scrutiny of the international community.

Yes I think they are a threat to security. The very fact Kim plays the nuke card proves he is a threat to security. Is it a major threat to us? No not really, but it is best to deal with these things before they get out of hand.

He played the cards he had. All the evidence is that the missiles were forced on him. The US was trying to starve him out (still are more than forty years later).

He had other cards in his hand. He had better aces to play then risking nuclear war.

If Cuba wants to lift the embargo, there is one quick way to start down that path. Hold elections, and have elections on a regular basis.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: North Korea is the Re

They didn't want us to have bigger and better toy than they had at the time.

And they still don't want us to have anything better. It would be a shot against their ego and their perceived power. I hear that the Avro would still be one of the more competitive fighters even in today's modern era. More and more plans and designs are being found. They should update the damn thing, build it.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: North Korea is the Re

Are you kidding me? The US would not want one of its neighbouring states to have the ability to obliterate parts of the US. The US whining about Canada not doing its share is just rhetoric that is given to the American people so that they can place blame on someone else for the huge defense expenditures.

I think Nosferax answered that question.

In reality, how are the spending money or defending us now? I'm sure if something were to happen, the world come, but it isn't like the have military bases here with troops, they aren't flying over and doing patrols. They don't patrol our seacoast within our 200 nm territorial limit.

Your right they don't need to have bases here to protect us. Just them existing down there they way they do is enough deterrence for anyone. They have huge defense budgets, we don't need to because they do.

I would say all those bases around the world helping to defend other countries is costing them more cash than us.

And you’re right. They don't actually draw up a "Canadian defense budget" it happens by default.

 

[Jay]

Freedom of tought/expression has nothing to do with capitalism. Those are much more to do with democracy than capitalism. Free market is more a dream these day than a reality if you consider all the trade barrier and tarif.

Not having to obey 1 guy who run the country??? Try starting a revolution and look what happen if you go against "the man".

Has for less taxation, where do you think those government grant your farmer or industry are receiving come from... Independently of the doctrine you are following you pay taxes.

I don't want to be blamed for dragging this thread to far off topic. I don't think we agree on a few things, so if you want to discuss this further, we probably need to start another thread.

 

[Nosferax]

Re: RE: North Korea is the Re

They didn't want us to have bigger and better toy than they had at the time.

And they still don't want us to have anything better. It would be a shot against their ego and their perceived power. I hear that the Avro would still be one of the more competitive fighters even in today's modern era. More and more plans and designs are being found. They should update the damn thing, build it.

The only trouble with that is that the purpose of this plane was to intercept bomber... Today the role of military aviation as change. what we need are more versatile/multi-role plane. As such the arrow wouldn't be useful.

What we realy need is more something like the Harrier or the Saab Viggen. A VTOL plane could be used anywhere in this country and safely hidden in the wilderness in case of war. The Viggen, while not being a VTOL can land and take off from small ill prepare dirt road and still carry a great payload.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: North Korea is the Re

They only have one or two missiles that even have an off chance of reaching North America, Mom. They won't use them because they would ensuring their own destruction.

I wouldn't put it past Kimmy to do something. Castro was willing to sacrifice the whole of Cuba for the Commi cause, why not Kimmy?

Castro would of never used them. Its the Russian that wanted to put Missiles there. And the missiles we're attached to so much Soviet Aid, that he had little to no choice.

 

[Numure]

Re: RE: North Korea is the Real Threat

No it is not silly. They may be "different" but so is every other commi cult that starts. The similarities are good enough. They are communists and they hate America, and they have nukes.

You can't repaint Castro the way you want to see him.

Castro was more than willing to sacrifice Cuba, and this is plainly known, and mentioned fully in a documentary I watched on him, on WQLN, a few weeks ago. The guy was not only willing to have Cuba destroyed but start Armageddon also. He's a Commi, and I expect nothing less from him and his kind.

Therefore I trust Korea to do the same.

http://www.neoliberalismo.com/Archivo-01/sad_day.htm

A link for those interested.

The communist we're just as evil as the Americans. The Americans wouldnt of thought twice to lunch every single missiles they had if one just took off by accident, or what not. Both are as evil as the next.

 

[Leveller]

North Korea is definitely not the real threat. And whether or not North Korea has nuclear weapons is a secondary issue. The main issue is that the aggressive foreign policy of the Bush administration has convinced a number of countries, including North Korea and Iran, that they will suffer the same fate as Iraq if they do not acquire WMDs to defend themselves. In other words, if the North Koreans did not already possess nuclear weapons, they have been put in the position of having to acquire them.

There is a double standard. The Bush admin divides the world into “responsible” and “rogue” states, the former being trusted to possess nuclear weapons and the latter not being trustworthy. However, neither North Korea nor Iran is threatening to attack any neighbouring countries. Nor is either country threatening to launch pre-emptive nuclear strikes against other countries. Such behaviour has only been demonstrated by the “responsible” nuclear states. The U.S. particularly has demonstrated that it will not be bound by international law or the will of the international community. The Bush Doctrine goes so far as to threaten military strikes against any country which dares to arm itself to a level comparable to the U.S. By any standards, it is the U.S. which is a rogue state and which should be banned from possessing WMDs, nuclear or otherwise.

 

[Numure]

Did the documentary you watched include papers that have been released since the collapse of the former USSR? The fact that Castro did not want Soviet missiles in Cuba was documented by the Soviets themselves, Jay.

Your fear of communism is comical. Your belief that they want to destroy the world if they can't take it over has more place in a 1950's science fiction movie than in any modern political discussion.

I don't remember if they discussed his reluctance to the missiles. That doesn't really matter, since he must have agreed to it at some time....


My fear of communism might seem comical to a sympathizer, but I'm not convinced this threat has died and all is well with the world again.

"Your belief that they want to destroy the world if they can't take it over..."

I never said that.


An interesting artical I found

http://www.virginia.edu/uvanewsmakers/newsmakers/naftali.html


"Fidel stuck to three basic themes in his talks, in the four hours that he dominated. He talked about the betrayal of Cuba by the Soviets. His statements about the United States were muted. One could see that his "charm offensive" dictated some of what he would say about us. But about the Soviets, he did not hold back. He lambasted Kruschev for having forced the missiles upon them. The Cuban position is that they never wanted the missiles. And then in a dramatic and humiliating fashion, to decide to remove them without consulting the Cuban Government at all. When Castro spoke, the passion of his anger was genuine. This was not theater. You could see it--he shook a little bit. His voice increased and his timbre changed. This man is still angry, forty years later, at the Soviets.

The second great theme was that he was the defender of Cuban sovereignty, and that, of course, is linked to this sense of betrayal. There some of the most interesting admissions were made. Fidel explained why he was willing to risk escalating this crisis by shooting down American planes without Soviet approval. On October 26 and later in November, angry at the state of the crisis and its resolution, Fidel ordered his own men to use their anti-aircraft guns against American planes that were flying low-level reconnaissance missions. The Soviets did not ask him to do this. The Soviets did not want him to do this. In fact, the Soviets sent an envoy just to tell him to stop. But, it did not matter because Fidel felt himself the embodiment of Cuban sovereignty and he was going to do whatever he pleased to show that Cuba would not be stepped on by either super power. This was a constant theme in our discussions. "

See, you got it right there. Fidel wasnt a mad man, he was defending his country right to self determination.

 

[Numure]

Why does people always think that capitalism = freedom...
It really doesnt.

Oh I dunno, free markets, freedom of thought/expression, free movement of goods...less taxation, therefore more individualism, not having to obey 1 guy who runs the country...that sorta thing.

I thought everyone knew that....

Capitalism isnt Freedom. Communism, isnt freedom either. Freedom is an illusion, non existant. Each side makes you believe it, propaganda and nationalism are the best tool any politician can wield on the world. Look at the US right now, and you will see.

 

[Jay]

See, you got it right there. Fidel wasnt a mad man, he was defending his country right to self determination.

So under the guise of self determination, he was forced to have nukes?

 

[Nosferax]

See, you got it right there. Fidel wasnt a mad man, he was defending his country right to self determination.

So under the guise of self determination, he was forced to have nukes?

This is as good a reason than any other the nuclear power has given us.

 

[Numure]

See, you got it right there. Fidel wasnt a mad man, he was defending his country right to self determination.

So under the guise of self determination, he was forced to have nukes?

Why does the US have Nukes? You have your answer.

 

[Jay]

But thay are US nukes to protect US interests.


I'm saying that if Castro was all for self determanation, why was he "forced" to have USSR nukes?

I don't believe him.

 

[WestsideWigger4life]

NORTH KOREA IS A$$HOLE

 

[Reverend Blair]

I'm saying that if Castro was all for self determanation, why was he "forced" to have USSR nukes?

He needed access to the markets of the USSR. He needed staples like wheat and rice. He needed gasoline. He needed small arms.

Cuba would not have survived as an independent state without those things, Jay. It would be in about the same position as Haiti right now instead.