lol Funny thing for someone like Joey to say, as he definitely thinks he's the cat's meow concerning knowledge. lol
Anyway, I think the word you are defining is "apathetic".
National Health Service bashers make me sick
- Thread starter Blackleaf
- Start date
Anyway, I think the word you are defining is "apathetic".
Quite right. I think Canadians have gotten used to waiting.
I wouldn't say usually, but the phrase "often enough" would suffice.
How the far right media and pollsters manage to make it appear as if the majority do not want health care reform:
Daily Kos: 77% of Voters Support a Public Option: How NBC and Ras Got It Wrong
''it's been so easy to get sucked into the narratives that have emerged in the last few weeks, with analysts talking about 2010 losses for Democrats, and every pundit reacting as if this is a result of public option support slipping due to conservative pushback. Don't buy that illusion - if Democrats have problems in 2010 it's going to be due to a failure of mobilizing their voters, which simply won't occur if a public option passes. The fact is that public option supporters had at best ONE rough week of town halls, and then pushed back hard in the two weeks since by showing up in larger numbers than the wingnuts, by pressuring Congress and the White House, and by rewarding good behavior among Representatives and Senators - not to mention the President's own town halls defending the public option to critics and undecideds; the end result of the opposition winning one week and us winning two weeks is that the electorate is as supportive or even a bit more supportive of the public option that it had been previously, according to all the data.
There is simply not some widespread national resentment to or perception of the public option being pushed on people, as the insurance company astroturfers are trying their hardest to sell to a very gullible and suggestible media, since 77% of the electorate supports a public option, and only half the country opposes single payer at this point (as NBC and Ras have so graciously determined for us).
This is an example of the snowball effect that corporate media owned by just a few powerful sources can easily begin, and that oftentimes even non-corporate media like the blogosphere can become an unwitting echo chamber for if we're not careful ''
... more ...
It is clear that the majority want health care reform. Those who want it now outnumber those who don't at those town hall meetings but the far right media refuses to report that truth. We the majority voted for Obama and the Democratic party majority on the basis of the DNC platform which called for reform. It is now time to stop playing around the bush and to get the damn thing over with.
Daily Kos: 77% of Voters Support a Public Option: How NBC and Ras Got It Wrong
''it's been so easy to get sucked into the narratives that have emerged in the last few weeks, with analysts talking about 2010 losses for Democrats, and every pundit reacting as if this is a result of public option support slipping due to conservative pushback. Don't buy that illusion - if Democrats have problems in 2010 it's going to be due to a failure of mobilizing their voters, which simply won't occur if a public option passes. The fact is that public option supporters had at best ONE rough week of town halls, and then pushed back hard in the two weeks since by showing up in larger numbers than the wingnuts, by pressuring Congress and the White House, and by rewarding good behavior among Representatives and Senators - not to mention the President's own town halls defending the public option to critics and undecideds; the end result of the opposition winning one week and us winning two weeks is that the electorate is as supportive or even a bit more supportive of the public option that it had been previously, according to all the data.
There is simply not some widespread national resentment to or perception of the public option being pushed on people, as the insurance company astroturfers are trying their hardest to sell to a very gullible and suggestible media, since 77% of the electorate supports a public option, and only half the country opposes single payer at this point (as NBC and Ras have so graciously determined for us).
This is an example of the snowball effect that corporate media owned by just a few powerful sources can easily begin, and that oftentimes even non-corporate media like the blogosphere can become an unwitting echo chamber for if we're not careful ''
... more ...
It is clear that the majority want health care reform. Those who want it now outnumber those who don't at those town hall meetings but the far right media refuses to report that truth. We the majority voted for Obama and the Democratic party majority on the basis of the DNC platform which called for reform. It is now time to stop playing around the bush and to get the damn thing over with.
''I think the word you are defining is "apathetic". ''
No, the word passive or passivity is correct. And thanks again for showing the world how a Canadian like you knows the subject of USA politics better than I do.
woo hoo ........
No, the word passive or passivity is correct. And thanks again for showing the world how a Canadian like you knows the subject of USA politics better than I do.
woo hoo ........
Ironsides, sure we all want the best possible health care as soon as possible. The point is how much are you willing to spend for health care. All the developed countries except USA take a prudent approach to health care. USA evidently thinks that it has found a bottomless pot of money somewhere; it spends much more on health care than anybody else, and gets poor results for it.
If fast is definitely better, why does USA fair so poorly when it comes to health indicators, low life expectancy, high infant mortality etc.?
If I'm not mistaken, I read somewhere that your birth weights are going down, which could lead to lower birth rates. Our infant morality may be higher than yours, but were not that far apart. Which to say is were both doing something wrong somewhere.
British Healthcare: 'Cruel' to Patients
Thursday, August 27, 2009 2:31 PM
By: Dan Weil
Some healthcare experts in the United States have cited the United Kingdom’s government-run health service as a model we should emulate.
But according to a new study from The (U.K.) Patients Association, as many as 1 million National Health Service (NHS) patients have received terrible care.
The study shows that 2 percent of patients believe they receive inadequate care at hospitals. “If this was extrapolated to the whole of the NHS from 2002 to 2008, it would equate to over 1 million patients,” reads a statement accompanying the report.
“Very often these are the most vulnerable elderly and terminally ill patients — it’s a sad indictment of the care they receive.”
The report says the problems exist across the board.
“As a consistent pattern of shocking standards of care has emerged we have decided to publish a number of these accounts to highlight the unacceptable experiences facing patients up and down the country,” the statement says.
“These accounts reveal patients being denied basic dignity in their care — often left in soiled bed clothes, being given inadequate food and drink, having repeated falls, suffering from late diagnosis, cancelled operations, bungled referrals and misplaced notes.”
And that’s not all. The report also indicates “worrying instances of cruel and callous attitudes from staff towards vulnerable and sometimes terminally ill patients,” the statement says.
Some experts who advocate healthcare reform in the United States say Singapore’s health system represents a better option than Britain’s.
“I think we can learn that there is an alternative (meaning Singapore) to the European model that can also contain costs and achieve a high level of health. We’re not stuck with the U.K. or nothing,” Michael Pauly, a health management professor at the University of Pennsylvania tells the Times.
© 2009
So much for their healthcare system.
Thursday, August 27, 2009 2:31 PM
By: Dan Weil
Some healthcare experts in the United States have cited the United Kingdom’s government-run health service as a model we should emulate.
But according to a new study from The (U.K.) Patients Association, as many as 1 million National Health Service (NHS) patients have received terrible care.
The study shows that 2 percent of patients believe they receive inadequate care at hospitals. “If this was extrapolated to the whole of the NHS from 2002 to 2008, it would equate to over 1 million patients,” reads a statement accompanying the report.
“Very often these are the most vulnerable elderly and terminally ill patients — it’s a sad indictment of the care they receive.”
The report says the problems exist across the board.
“As a consistent pattern of shocking standards of care has emerged we have decided to publish a number of these accounts to highlight the unacceptable experiences facing patients up and down the country,” the statement says.
“These accounts reveal patients being denied basic dignity in their care — often left in soiled bed clothes, being given inadequate food and drink, having repeated falls, suffering from late diagnosis, cancelled operations, bungled referrals and misplaced notes.”
And that’s not all. The report also indicates “worrying instances of cruel and callous attitudes from staff towards vulnerable and sometimes terminally ill patients,” the statement says.
Some experts who advocate healthcare reform in the United States say Singapore’s health system represents a better option than Britain’s.
“I think we can learn that there is an alternative (meaning Singapore) to the European model that can also contain costs and achieve a high level of health. We’re not stuck with the U.K. or nothing,” Michael Pauly, a health management professor at the University of Pennsylvania tells the Times.
© 2009
So much for their healthcare system.
Ironsides, anybody can dig up articles critical about any health care system in the world, I am sure one could dig up plenty of similar articles about American health care system (how the quality of health care depends upon one’s ability to pay, how many families go bankrupt every year burdened by health care costs etc.). That means nothing.
As I understand, the study asked patients themselves whether they got adequate health care. Such a measure can be notoriously unreliable and subjective. For instance, it is quite possible that a patient did not get a cup of tea when he asked for, and so he thinks that he got inadequate health care.
At the end of the day, heath care can only be judged by objective measures, how much a country is spending on health care, what is it getting in return, how does a county compare in terms of life expectancy, infant mortality etc. Those are the true measures of the quality of health care, not what some patient thought of his health care. Anecdotal evidence is notoriously unreliable in deciding on quality of health care.
Indeed, one has to be careful about such so called studies, where the respondents are asked for their subjective opinion. For instance, study after study tells us that religious, fundamentalist people are happier in their marriages than non Fundamentalists. Yet divorce rate is higher among Fundamentalists. Clearly they are lying through their teeth when they claim to be happy.
As I understand, the study asked patients themselves whether they got adequate health care. Such a measure can be notoriously unreliable and subjective. For instance, it is quite possible that a patient did not get a cup of tea when he asked for, and so he thinks that he got inadequate health care.
At the end of the day, heath care can only be judged by objective measures, how much a country is spending on health care, what is it getting in return, how does a county compare in terms of life expectancy, infant mortality etc. Those are the true measures of the quality of health care, not what some patient thought of his health care. Anecdotal evidence is notoriously unreliable in deciding on quality of health care.
Indeed, one has to be careful about such so called studies, where the respondents are asked for their subjective opinion. For instance, study after study tells us that religious, fundamentalist people are happier in their marriages than non Fundamentalists. Yet divorce rate is higher among Fundamentalists. Clearly they are lying through their teeth when they claim to be happy.
Ironsides, one more thing about the so called study. It says that 2% of patients were dissatisfied with the health care they received, that sounds like an awfully low number. The flip side is that 98% of the patients were satisfied with the health care they received.
Have similar studies carried out in other countries (USA, Canada etc.) and how do the results compare? Before you pass judgment on British health care system based upon the fact that 2% of the patients were dissatisfied with the health care they received (and by implication 98% of the patients were satisfied), you should get to know the whole picture.
Have similar studies carried out in other countries (USA, Canada etc.) and how do the results compare? Before you pass judgment on British health care system based upon the fact that 2% of the patients were dissatisfied with the health care they received (and by implication 98% of the patients were satisfied), you should get to know the whole picture.
Medical bills leading cause of bankruptcies in the U.S.
February 3, 2005
• Rising Cost of Health Insurance at Center of Debate
• Health-Related Bankruptcies Up 50 Percent
• House Panel Hears From Consumers Who Lost Insurance
• Harvard Study: 60% of Bankruptcies Caused by Health Problems
• Hospital Stays Increase for Uninsured Americans
• Keeping Your Health Insurance When You're Unemployed
• Hospitals Score Low in Patient Survey
• Lack of Children's Health Insurance Increasing Across the Board
• Uninsured Aren't Primary Cause of Crowds in Emergency Rooms
• Census Report Shows Increase In Uninsured
• Hospital, Health Insurance Costs Skyrocket
• Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds
• U.S. Health Care Most Expensive & Most Error Prone
• Retirees Underestimate Health Care Costs
• Per Capita U.S. Health Care Costs Triple Canada's
---
• More Health News ...
Illness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs.
The study estimates that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans annually -- counting debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children.
Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by illness had health insurance. More than three-quarters were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. However, 38 percent had lost coverage at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy.
Most of the medical bankruptcy filers were middle class; 56 percent owned a home and the same number had attended college. In many cases, illness forced breadwinners to take time off from work -- losing income and job-based health insurance precisely when families needed it most.
Families in bankruptcy suffered many privations -- 30 percent had a utility cut off and 61 percent went without needed medical care.
The research, carried out jointly by researchers at Harvard Law School and Harvard Medical School, is the first in-depth study of medical causes of bankruptcy. With the cooperation of bankruptcy judges in five Federal districts (in California, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Tennessee and Texas) they administered questionnaires to bankruptcy filers and reviewed their court records.
Dr. David Himmelstein, the lead author of the study and an Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard commented: "Unless you're Bill Gates you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy. Most of the medically bankrupt were average Americans who happened to get sick."
Today's health insurance policies -- with high deductibles, co-pays, and many exclusions -- offer little protection during a serious illness. Uncovered medical bills averaged $13,460 for those with private insurance at the start of their illness. People with cancer had average medical debts of $35,878.
"The paradox is that the costliest health system in the world performs so poorly. We waste one-third of every health care dollar on insurance bureaucracy and profits while two million people go bankrupt annually and we leave 45 million uninsured" said Dr. Quentin Young, national coordinator of Physicians for a National Health Program.
"With national health insurance ('Medicare for All'), we could provide comprehensive, lifelong coverage to all Americans for the same amount we are spending now and end the cruelty of ruining families financially when they get sick."
February 3, 2005
• Rising Cost of Health Insurance at Center of Debate
• Health-Related Bankruptcies Up 50 Percent
• House Panel Hears From Consumers Who Lost Insurance
• Harvard Study: 60% of Bankruptcies Caused by Health Problems
• Hospital Stays Increase for Uninsured Americans
• Keeping Your Health Insurance When You're Unemployed
• Hospitals Score Low in Patient Survey
• Lack of Children's Health Insurance Increasing Across the Board
• Uninsured Aren't Primary Cause of Crowds in Emergency Rooms
• Census Report Shows Increase In Uninsured
• Hospital, Health Insurance Costs Skyrocket
• Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds
• U.S. Health Care Most Expensive & Most Error Prone
• Retirees Underestimate Health Care Costs
• Per Capita U.S. Health Care Costs Triple Canada's
---
• More Health News ...
Illness and medical bills caused half of the 1,458,000 personal bankruptcies in 2001, according to a study published by the journal Health Affairs.
The study estimates that medical bankruptcies affect about 2 million Americans annually -- counting debtors and their dependents, including about 700,000 children.
Surprisingly, most of those bankrupted by illness had health insurance. More than three-quarters were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. However, 38 percent had lost coverage at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy.
Most of the medical bankruptcy filers were middle class; 56 percent owned a home and the same number had attended college. In many cases, illness forced breadwinners to take time off from work -- losing income and job-based health insurance precisely when families needed it most.
Families in bankruptcy suffered many privations -- 30 percent had a utility cut off and 61 percent went without needed medical care.
The research, carried out jointly by researchers at Harvard Law School and Harvard Medical School, is the first in-depth study of medical causes of bankruptcy. With the cooperation of bankruptcy judges in five Federal districts (in California, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Tennessee and Texas) they administered questionnaires to bankruptcy filers and reviewed their court records.
Dr. David Himmelstein, the lead author of the study and an Associate Professor of Medicine at Harvard commented: "Unless you're Bill Gates you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy. Most of the medically bankrupt were average Americans who happened to get sick."
Today's health insurance policies -- with high deductibles, co-pays, and many exclusions -- offer little protection during a serious illness. Uncovered medical bills averaged $13,460 for those with private insurance at the start of their illness. People with cancer had average medical debts of $35,878.
"The paradox is that the costliest health system in the world performs so poorly. We waste one-third of every health care dollar on insurance bureaucracy and profits while two million people go bankrupt annually and we leave 45 million uninsured" said Dr. Quentin Young, national coordinator of Physicians for a National Health Program.
"With national health insurance ('Medicare for All'), we could provide comprehensive, lifelong coverage to all Americans for the same amount we are spending now and end the cruelty of ruining families financially when they get sick."
If we extrapolate that 2% onto the whole world, that's like 120 million people that don't like cold beer! What is the world coming to?
Cheer up.
The exact number of beer drinkers in the world is nebulous, but we know for certain that over 35 billion gallons of beer are sold, and assumably consumed. It's a dirty job but somebody's gotta do it....;-):lol:
SirJosephPorter:
Lets not leave out where or who these people were. As someone in a fluent neighborhood and I'm sure you would get more positive results than asking someone from a poor neighborhood. Who else can you ask other than the patients, the hospital administrators are not going to give you a straight answer either. Canada' infant mortality rate is climbing slowly now, it took us a long time to get to where we now stand (this did not happen over night, just no one though it important enough to do anything about it) . What will Canada do starting now to reverse the trend. As for the U.S. we will have to wait and see what happens in the next year or so.
Know you will like this source.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html
Lets not leave out where or who these people were. As someone in a fluent neighborhood and I'm sure you would get more positive results than asking someone from a poor neighborhood. Who else can you ask other than the patients, the hospital administrators are not going to give you a straight answer either. Canada' infant mortality rate is climbing slowly now, it took us a long time to get to where we now stand (this did not happen over night, just no one though it important enough to do anything about it) . What will Canada do starting now to reverse the trend. As for the U.S. we will have to wait and see what happens in the next year or so.
Know you will like this source.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html
Nerver mind those 99% to 1% quotes, they are not real, I just found this article also while reading the "Investors Business Daily" Something is not right in Jolly Old England.
The British health system in no way resembles Canadian or American medicine, but why does everyone try and push it on us. It is not better than what we have got. This is a prime reason why National Healthcare is not always better.
Tragic Tales From The NHS
"A study by the British Patients Association tells the true story about socialized medicine in Britain. It's one of willful and woeful neglect of millions, missed diagnoses, and elderly patients left in pain."
"These are not cherry-picked stories, but rather daily life under the NHS. In the U.S., trial lawyers would have a field day as demands mounted for such deaths to stop until the system was overhauled."
Investors.com - Tragic Tales From The NHS
Ironsides, Investors Business Daily is a right wing, Republican oriented publication. Sure they have some investment related news and articles, but they also contain plenty of right wing propaganda. And it is viciously anti-Obama, it is an Obama hater.
The article quoted contains anecdotes, and I have said it many times, anecdotes are not evidence, statistics is. With anecdotes, there is no way to verify the veracity of the statements, we don’t know if the story tellers are lying, distorting facts, if they have hidden agenda etc.
The Daily Telegraph quoted in the article is an extreme right wing publication, it wouldn’t surprise me if they would like American style private health care introduced in UK. When I lived there, Telegraph suggested abolishing railways in UK, pour concrete on the rails and convert the rails into road system. It also wanted to get rid of pay as you go taxation, it wanted government to ask the citizens for their taxes at the end of the year (nicely).
So Telegraph belongs to rabid right. The whole article appears to be far right propaganda. We have no way of establishing what is said in the article are true accounts. And that is always the problem with anecdotal evidence.
The article quoted contains anecdotes, and I have said it many times, anecdotes are not evidence, statistics is. With anecdotes, there is no way to verify the veracity of the statements, we don’t know if the story tellers are lying, distorting facts, if they have hidden agenda etc.
The Daily Telegraph quoted in the article is an extreme right wing publication, it wouldn’t surprise me if they would like American style private health care introduced in UK. When I lived there, Telegraph suggested abolishing railways in UK, pour concrete on the rails and convert the rails into road system. It also wanted to get rid of pay as you go taxation, it wanted government to ask the citizens for their taxes at the end of the year (nicely).
So Telegraph belongs to rabid right. The whole article appears to be far right propaganda. We have no way of establishing what is said in the article are true accounts. And that is always the problem with anecdotal evidence.
ironsides, at the end of the day statistical evidence is the objective evidence. So the question arises, how much does UK spend on health care, as opposed to USA? What is the life expectancy in UK, infant mortality in UK, as compared to USA? In all these criteria, US compared unfavorably with UK.
As I said before, anybody can dig up horror stories about any health care system. I am sure there are a few horror stories about Canadian health care, and there probably are many more about US health care, but that is not evidence.
As I said before, anybody can dig up horror stories about any health care system. I am sure there are a few horror stories about Canadian health care, and there probably are many more about US health care, but that is not evidence.