N.Y. Times End of Year Editorial - Bush et. al. Fail.

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
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Don't you dare take Pangloss's advice, as a backwoods backward amateur reader and analist I appreciate the time and effort others take here to educate, it's an easy enough thing to digest a piece of work at ones liesure, I like long windedness, eespecially when it talks sence to me.
Quite the opposite of what Pangloss has recommended he should disregard his own advice and spill his guts so to speak, if you wait to long you'll perhaps miss the chance.We are on the edge of the abyss and I for one would understand why. Those who skip the essays miss the meat in the human stew you can't grow on broth alone you know. There are many skilled writers here, I wish they would get on with it.

What you write has much wisdom; however I'll repeat what an editor taught me in my first newsroom job:

"As many words as it takes to tell the story, and not one word more."

Also from Strunk and White's famous little guide to good writing*, rule number one:

"Omit needless words. Omit needless words. Omit needless words."

For a story to be both complete and brief shows two things: skill at writing and respect for the reader.

Pangloss

*The book is "The Elements of Style" and is one of the meanest, most brutally accurate books on good writing. Also one of the shortest.
- p
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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I stand corrected, I am familiar with the rules, I even at one time used them in a union news letter.
However I'm still a sucker for a long story that reads well, nothing frustrates me more than to become engaged and then have that engagement snuffed by the need for brevity.
 

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
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DB:

As long as I'm threadjacking. . .

If a good read is truncated by brevity, then it is too short, and that's bad writing.

Really, the writing should match the forum - and here the best posts, the ones that get reactions and stimulate discussion, limit themselves to one point per post. That point can usually be made in fewer than one hundred fifty words or so.

More than that, and the respondent(s) have too many rhetorical balls to juggle to make for fun and diverse argument. Look at the threads that really work well, and most of the posts are a paragraph or four.

Pangloss

Postscript: Of course there are always exceptions; and I left out the value of a comprehensive Original Post to start the discussion.

- p
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
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If I had high speed I could engage in exactly the way you suggest. My dialup is horrible so I'm always trying to say more than I have to, in anticipation. Plus I'm fataly in love with my own ranting, which in the end usually destroys anything I thought I might have to say.
 

Avro

Time Out
Feb 12, 2007
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If I had high speed I could engage in exactly the way you suggest. My dialup is horrible so I'm always trying to say more than I have to, in anticipation. Plus I'm fataly in love with my own ranting, which in the end usually destroys anything I thought I might have to say.

Perhaps if you got a job or asked Mom real nice you could afford high speed.
 

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
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Gerryh:

Why don't you respond for yourself, instead of acting like a teenager and plaintively asking "What about them?"

Seriously, the conversation here is so much better when it rises above schoolyard taunts.

Pangloss
 

gerryh

Time Out
Nov 21, 2004
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did I say "what about them"? I asked if he deserved better....imo...no he doesn't..... all I've seen him do is whine about "them".


You don't have to read my posts pangloss....unless of course you're beavers knight in shinning armour.
 

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
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"Shinning"? I see you put a lot of time and thought into your posts.

By asking about someone else instead of dealing with your own posts, you are indeed engaging in that most childish of tactics: misdirection. By asking about DB instead of answering me directly, you are indeed changing the subject while making it appear you really did respond.

As for being DBs "knight in shinning armour" you could read posts where DB and I go after each other with quite a bit of energy. So, in short, no I'm not anyones' knight in shinning armour.

Pangloss
 
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TomG

Electoral Member
Oct 27, 2006
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Pangloss:

I haven’t said it for awhile. I write for myself here. A discussion group for me is something like a magic notebook. It contains my notes, and it also occasionally suggests interesting things to think about and provides space to play and build ideas. I seldom address people here directly or respond. It makes no difference to me if my notes are read. I’m happy enough if others occasionally seem to find some value in my scribbling and send kind words my way, but response, let alone approval, are not my motivations.

If I seem to respond to something it is likely because I found it interesting enough to trigger some idea building. My responses are more notes. I save a few, and a few of those I may rework into a project sometime. Notes are not finished writing meant for others to read, and my final results seldom confirm to wire service style books, since that is not what I do. First my notes must go to my wife editor, my life creditor. A well lived life almost always is accompanied by another who is willing to lead credit to a valued life. Writers learn to pay attention to their editor since we all need to improve our own stories and seldom can do it alone. But now I wax cryptic again, so I might as well continue.

It might be interesting to note that my word processor default font is Bembo Std., designed in the 1400’s by an apprentice cookie mold maker who was commissioned by a Cardinal Bembo to design a typeface for a book about his trip to Mount Etna. The font is still going strong today, and especially for long texts. I don’t intend or desire to be brief. Times New Roman, a usual default font for word processors, was designed in the 1930’s by Stanley Morrison as the new font for the London Times. The font was designed to be legible on the presses and newsprint of the day, and more importantly, to save space. To me Bembo invites readers into a text by its simple eloquence while TNR assaults readers of small spaces with its LEGIBILITY. If I had to write to the requirements of mechanical apparatus and assault readers to be read, I wouldn’t. Ghost Boy, whom you may recall, is the name of several related graffiti fonts. Ghost Boy himself is a graffiti artist in the UK. My ****** quote above came from work presented on his website. I use a different graffiti font, but I thought the name Ghost Boy was appropriate when I was working with a metaphor about reflections of things that may not wholly exist.

Candide was originally published by Voltaire as a response to a criticism from Rousseau. The book was published three years later. I wonder what would have happened if Voltaire and Rousseau were participants in the discussion groups of today. Both are still read after a few hundred years. The words of fairly obscure pamphleteers can still be found, and many private letters from the period are considered part of literature today.

Much of what is accepted as writing today seems to me to be more disposable. Perhaps it is a conclusion of what we call the information age. We may have taken raw numbers and information as if they were the meaning of life. But possibly, on their own, numbers may simply numb and information fail to inform, or at least inform or nourish the thing that says ‘I,’ which some call a soul. To inform and nourish the ‘I ‘ thing, we perhaps need to let imagination rule our lives, where we can experience anything we can think of in full detail, as in a good story. And if we imagine enough perhaps it will lead to wonder at ourselves and the world around us. Imagination means to make an image of, and wonderful means to fill with awe or wonder. The world is like that if it’s allowed to be.

We’d perhaps do better if we led storybook rather than information lives, but we cannot help each other with such things here. Each of us can never be anything more than cyber-personalities to other participants. A cyber-personality seems similar to the reflections I described above as the NYT editorial mirror.

Please understand that these comments and those above are simply notes about thought processes of mine. They are not about you or anybody else, and are not intended as slights, attacks or criticisms. Besides, cyberspace is not an adequate medium to support an honest attack even if I were so inclined, and I’m not.


Ah Dark:

As you can see I don’t take advice easily or often, I quite happily place myself in the hands of my life editor who provides advice as needed, which is often.

You perhaps understand when I say that I must nourish my soul, and to do that I must take my human contact real-time in the flesh. After all, I live in a place where I usually do not see anybody during a day that I have not known for years. Even the wildlife here are known individually. When a neighbor observes that they haven’t seen the fox in a few weeks and we respond that the fox is spending most of its time in our bush now that the marten has moved closer to the river, we are referring to a specific fox and marten. And, we know them to have individual personalities. Everybody here knows exactly what ‘the fox’ means. It is not an abstraction. We keep track of them as we do each other. The wildlife are more real to us then are our political leaders who come to us only through phosphorescent screens and printed pages to deliver their conclusions as if they were entire stories; and also to deliver their pretenses that somehow they know and care about our needs. Since we live real time in the flesh, perhaps we are less inclined to confuse stories, which we need, with conclusions that belong to somebody else then are people who live their lives surrounded by strangers.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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TomG thanks for the words, I to as you know live in a place where the fox and the fisher are nieghbours and friends and a couple of bears who keep me on my toes. I take from this forum the education I can't find anywhere but in a place like this,Those that think they irratate me are perhaps the beast teachers of all. It took me a long time to understand that I was not an island and that I could never be one, I live about 3k from where a true hermit spent many years hidden from most human contact since he jumped a troop train late in the second world war. He was over eighty when he died and they said he had the body and mind of a young man, he lived in a dugout hovel for over sixty years. His isolation was his security but in the end the well meaning system hunted him down with a chopper and ended his life as surely as they had put a gun to his head.
I have not the benefit of teachers so I make due with instruction in this place, frequently I am gifted with a book title or a small lesson from my superiors and as I have said my petit-tyrant enemys are perhaps my greatest benefactors. Even the cyber-personality aspect cannot dimminish the power of words well joined and those who manipulate the runes with deft expertize please and expand me no end.If I could live forever it would be in a library/scriptorium with a fierce wood stove and a southern view.
He was the hermit of GullyLake.
 
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MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Yeah Tom...keep it brief..;)

It's like all the "dialogue" that's going on here all the time...sound-bytes are what's important, not any depth or evidence that anthing more than a single perspective has been entertained...

There are folk here that have tremendous difficulty with sentences that are too long...with words that aren't familiar and ideas that conflict with entrenched opinions...

It's like baseball Tom..;) Somehow baseball bats became more aerodynamic and the "sportsmen" of the NLB teams started hitting a lot more homeruns...must be the increased nutrients in white bread, or those aerodynamic baseball bats... something easy to believe and simple to figure out....nothing to do with fat-cat franchise owners encouraging "sportsmen" to load up on steroids...

Keep it simple, it's worked for George Bush and Stephen Harper...remember your audience my friend...too complex and the wetware gets overloaded and shuts down...:)
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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The New York Times had no integrity to begin with? It acted as a servent of power from the begining? Since the establishment had nothing but purchased power, how could it's organ have anything different? Why the lament for something that may not have existed?
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
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"It was impossible to see the founding principles of the greatest democracy in the contempt these men and their bosses showed for the Constitution, the rule of law and human decency."

In the above opening paragraph of the OP we see the lie perpetuated. If we as has been the case just assume this to be the truth no change is possible. That it the great untruth that has stimyed any advancement in democracy since it's first use. The united states has never in fact been a strong democracy.