The way you wrote it, tends to be the cue that from that point on, all discussion of how one's religion comes into their view on it is 'judging', rather than making a personal choice. But, WMG thoroughly threw all possible chances for honest discussion of the rights of these doctors, out the window after your post, so, I suppose he's only proven the point. Not much more to say after one troll comes in and muddies the water. Much the way the rabid atheists must confound any effort of yours to get answers in religious threads where you are questioning I suppose. Ah well.
More young doctors oppose abortions on ethical grounds
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The way you wrote it, tends to be the cue that from that point on, all discussion of how one's religion comes into their view on it is 'judging', rather than making a personal choice. But, WMG thoroughly threw all possible chances for honest discussion of the rights of these doctors, out the window after your post, so, I suppose he's only proven the point. Not much more to say after one troll comes in and muddies the water. Much the way the rabid atheists must confound any effort of yours to get answers in religious threads where you are questioning I suppose. Ah well.
The problem I have is with docs who specialize as OB/GYNs then refuse to even learn how to perform an abortion should it be needed in an emergency. It's like specializing in cardiology then refusing to treat heart attack patients.
I'll make it a little clearer, Not all religious people, the one's who fit the profile.
That's me ..... the one over here foaming at the mouth.
Do we all foam, hope it's just you, I'll check the mirror.
Just got some from the store today; lavender, blackberry, and chamomile scented. Shel will smell good enough to eat.
its still a good analogy, if you choose to specialise in something where performing abortions is not your job, then you will never have to perform one. Ever, even if you agree with performing them.
If you choose to take a career where you may have to perform an abortion, thats your choice. Do your job or quit. This isn't your job to not do things to others you consider immoral.
Lets thing how silly a practice that would be. If you are dying, you get rushed to the OR and the doctor on duty tonight is a Jehovahs Witness, because he considers blood transfusions immoral..should that doctor be allowed to let you die? Even if there are other doctors on site, should that doctor keep his/her job as a surgeon when he/she can't do the job required?
What about a female Muslim doctor who refused to treat a man? A neo-nazi doctor who thinks its immoral to help deliver a mixed-race baby?
They all have just as much right, even if it disgusts you or you find it crazy, to their personal moral beliefs. But if they stop them from being able to do the job required of them, then quit.
If I were you I'd seek out that woman and prostrate myself at her feet and beg forgiveness. It's the only way you can ever even start to resolve the massive injustice you did her. You speak of evil in others but you don't recognise it in yourself.
Stone me now - I just realized much of what we are speaking here stems from religious doctrine and what has been taught through religious teaching.
Personal preference or indoctrination? Choice or fear? Reasoning or puppetry?
And so many rules regarding sexuality in humans - grounded in antiquated dictates.
I find that an unsettling thought as I like to believe the root of religious belief is acceptance and peace. Now I am wondering.
Personal preference or indoctrination? Choice or fear? Reasoning or puppetry?
And so many rules regarding sexuality in humans - grounded in antiquated dictates.
I find that an unsettling thought as I like to believe the root of religious belief is acceptance and peace. Now I am wondering.
Is it truly possible to not know AT ALL how to perform an abortion if you are an OB/GYN though tracy? I'd have thought that being taught how to do a D and C, a C section, or an induction of labor, would all essentially lead to the same result of abortion if you needed to use them. I get what you're saying about there being some doctors who still refuse when it means saving a moms life (and I hope they are in a vast majority), but I would have thought that all know the means to the end, even if it might be the roundabout or unpractical methods of doing it.
Curiosity
Acceptance and peace? Our friend Toro credits the Roman Catholic Church with the defeat of communism...not as it turn out the forces of the Republican Capitalists...it seems one RC is very much like every other RC....
Social taboos concerning nudity, definition of gender 'role"...with of course women placing a distant second to males....the list of antiquated and inadequate doctrines stemming from the parochial vie for continued control over people's lives is long and celebrated. It has been the legacy of "beliefs" to burn and drown witches...to dismiss psychiatric illness and disease as "possession"....to ostracize and marginalize any dynamic in society that sought to seek answers beyond the draconian rididity of organized religion. These sentiments of alienation and exclusivity are alive and well today surviving in far greater measure than an examination of the postive outcomes produced by organized religion could ever expose. The Roman Catholic church in particular....frustrating law to bring pedophiles to justice....hiding the corruption that seethes under the piousness of a belief construct that has spend generations conditioning people to divisiveness.
Acceptance and peace? Our friend Toro credits the Roman Catholic Church with the defeat of communism...not as it turn out the forces of the Republican Capitalists...it seems one RC is very much like every other RC....
Social taboos concerning nudity, definition of gender 'role"...with of course women placing a distant second to males....the list of antiquated and inadequate doctrines stemming from the parochial vie for continued control over people's lives is long and celebrated. It has been the legacy of "beliefs" to burn and drown witches...to dismiss psychiatric illness and disease as "possession"....to ostracize and marginalize any dynamic in society that sought to seek answers beyond the draconian rididity of organized religion. These sentiments of alienation and exclusivity are alive and well today surviving in far greater measure than an examination of the postive outcomes produced by organized religion could ever expose. The Roman Catholic church in particular....frustrating law to bring pedophiles to justice....hiding the corruption that seethes under the piousness of a belief construct that has spend generations conditioning people to divisiveness.
See, I believe the root of religious belief is humanity. Thus, a large portion of religious tenets are reflective of the time and the people that they serve.
Outdated? I guess it would depend on what side of the conversation you stand. Choice or fear? I've always felt 90% of the abortions performed in NA were for unjustifiable reasons, but I didn't think that out of fear. I've never felt that if I truly needed one, or would lose my life, that God would expect me to die first.
So where do my objections to the vast majority of abortions rise from? Do they stem from my time in the church? The short answer, whether one would want to believe me or not, is no. They tend to stem from the misconception that pregnancy is a disease, something shameful and inconvenient. In its very simplest form, I believe that no doctor should be forced to remove healthy tissue from a healthy body.
Karrie
If abortion had been as easy a procedure to implement at the time I was born...there's a good chance I wouldn't be here.... As soon as the cheering quiets down over consideration of that possibility I'll continue...
If we separate...conceptually... the ideas we have about abortion and euthanasia from religious or "believer-thinking" what is left?
If you're a proponent of Dewey's pespective, does it make sense to burden society..a closed system in terms of resource distribution and management....with elderly who can no longer contribute to their own maintenance? Can a society afford to (as it seems we are prepared to ..I'm thinking of dead-beat-dads here).....forego teaching birth control and welcome newborns into a world that's unfit overtaxed (ecologically) and hostage to greed?
Are people able to consider the dynamics of population...expansion and appropriateness in terms of this being a closed system without the overarching influence of religious..."morality"?
If abortion had been as easy a procedure to implement at the time I was born...there's a good chance I wouldn't be here.... As soon as the cheering quiets down over consideration of that possibility I'll continue...
If we separate...conceptually... the ideas we have about abortion and euthanasia from religious or "believer-thinking" what is left?
If you're a proponent of Dewey's pespective, does it make sense to burden society..a closed system in terms of resource distribution and management....with elderly who can no longer contribute to their own maintenance? Can a society afford to (as it seems we are prepared to ..I'm thinking of dead-beat-dads here).....forego teaching birth control and welcome newborns into a world that's unfit overtaxed (ecologically) and hostage to greed?
Are people able to consider the dynamics of population...expansion and appropriateness in terms of this being a closed system without the overarching influence of religious..."morality"?
If we remove religious morality from it, we're left with a human rights issue. Religion aside, I still see a pregnancy as a baby, deserving of protection of its life.
Can a society afford to forego teaching birth control? No. Every society should teach birth control, but birth control should be in a preventative form, not a terminative one.
Unfortunately yes, it's possible to not know how to do the abortion that is needed. The procedure to remove placental remnants which all ob/gyns will learn for instance is different from an abortion. For an abortion, the anatomy they are working with isn't the same and screwing it up can kill the mother. You're removing a placenta which is still attached to the woman's body. Do that incorrectly and you'll have some SERIOUS problems, and FAST. There are actually several different types of procedures used to abort depending on the circumstances and they can't be treated as interchangeable without risking patient lives.
C-sections and inductions just aren't enough. One particularly common condition which is only cured with the ending of the pregnancy is called PIH (pregnancy induced hypertension). Basically a woman's blood pressure can skyrocket, leading to all sorts of problems including seizures. Severe cases become HELLP syndrome. The last LP of that stands for low platelets. Try to do a c-section on that type of patient and you can pretty much guarantee they'll bleed to death. Plus, I don't think it's right to subject a woman to a much more invasive procedure than they need to be. It carries much more risks.
Inductions are completely impractical in an emergency. They are time consuming if they even work at all. They often don't. I can't tell you how many inductions I've seen fail, others take 24+ hours to get any results. Plus, many women shouldn't be induced because they've had c-sections in the past and induction drugs put them at risk for uterine rupture, which can kill them in minutes. They'd be lucky to survive it and even luckier if they didn't need an emergency hysterectomy.
I maintain that if you want to be an OB/GYN, you need to learn these procedures. If you can't do them, there are plenty of other areas you can specialize in. You may say it's unfair to stop them from delivering babies if that's what they really want to do, but I wouldn't be doing that. GPs can deliver babies. They don't have to learn about abortion procedures. If you want to do deliveries but not all GYN care, then become a GP. Don't become an OB/GYN and then put your patients at risk by not being completely trained. That's irresponsible and selfish.
This caught my attention...
So, what if it isn't healthy? Are you ok with them aborting non-healthy fetuses? Or can a mom whose pregnancy is making her unhealthy have an abortion even if it isn't risking her life? Are there exceptions for rape victims? I can't come up with a simple rule for abortion myself because I see so many variables.
Thanks for all the good answers - I have another to posit.....
Why can't modern religions bring their teachings into the modern age to coincide with scientific discovery - rather than choosing to remain in darkness when so many people are going to be beaten down with guilt?
Why do religions consistently dwell on the first teachings which were based in ignorance and fear and superstition? Where the average person did not have the gifts of learning, education, discovery and modern technology? We as a species have evolved. Religion has not.
Why can't modern religions bring their teachings into the modern age to coincide with scientific discovery - rather than choosing to remain in darkness when so many people are going to be beaten down with guilt?
Why do religions consistently dwell on the first teachings which were based in ignorance and fear and superstition? Where the average person did not have the gifts of learning, education, discovery and modern technology? We as a species have evolved. Religion has not.
Like I said, it's my view in it's simplest form. Life is never easy, nor are all cases cut and dry. That's why, if it were up to me, there would be medical guidelines governing when it is and isn't okay to end a life, just as there are in all other areas of medicine. What would constitute an 'unhealthy' fetus? Down's Syndrome? Harlequin fetus? A fetus found to have developed with no brain? When would it be determined to be a direct threat to mom's life? Should I have qualified for an abortion when it was found that I was starting to go blind from pregnancy induced pseudotumor cerebri? These are questions that I don't presume to have the answers to. I am not a doctor, I am not capable of drawing up the guidelines which say when it is okay to terminate life.
But I firmly believe that fetuses deserve those guidelines.
See, because you can't answer those questions you think there should be rules. That's the exact same reason why I think there shouldn't be any hard and fast rules. What's right for one family in a certain situation might not be right for another family... I'd rather leave it up to them because they have to live with their decision in the end, not the doctor. There are already basic guidelines in place for late term abortions, and that's enough for me.