Maybe Bush was right

dukee

Nominee Member
Nov 25, 2004
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http://www.macleans.ca/switchboard/columnists/article.jsp?content=20050314_101916_101916

Maybe Bush was right

Even U.S. critics agree that the Iraq invasion may have sparked democracy

PETER MANSBRIDGE

There I was , standing near the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin, or West Berlin as it was then called. It was November 1989, I was perched on a makeshift TV platform, and as far as I could see, on either side, there were anchors from other countries doing just what I was doing -- talking to a camera about the incredible story unfolding just metres away. The Wall, that concrete symbol of the Cold War that had split West from East, was coming down, piece by piece, as hammers, big and small, made one blow after another. And those few days signalled -- well, just what did they signal? Now, years later, we know they meant the beginning of the end of the Soviet Empire and its stranglehold on Eastern Europe. But at the time we weren't quite sure what the Wall's demise represented. Everyone agreed it was momentous, but did it simply mean the two Germanys were reuniting? When I look back at the broadcasts during that period, it was that reunification issue that most of us were echoing.

The next week I was in Moscow, and while there was a whiff of official despair in the air with other East Bloc countries also facing freedom marches, no one seriously suggested that the Russia we'd all grown up with, the heart of Communist power, was about to crater into oblivion. Sometimes when you're in the middle of change, it's difficult to judge just how extensive the movement is and what the impact will be.

Which brings us to the Middle East today, and how we're trying to judge the depth of what clearly is change. In less than a year, we've seen relatively free elections in Afghanistan and Iraq, a hint of democracy in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, the death of Yasser Arafat and the election of Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian who seems bent on finding peace with Israel. And most recently, the remarkable scenes in Lebanon where people power has again stared down the guns of seized power. Is freedom really on the march across the Middle East, as George W. Bush and those who've helped design his foreign policy giddily suggest? Actually, that theory is now gaining support from unlikely sources.

Remember Walid Jumblatt? He was a familiar face in the media of the 1980s as Lebanon went through its agonizing civil war -- a long-time Druze parliamentarian, he was often heard railing against the U.S. for intervening in the mess that was his country. Now, his thoughts have a different tone. Last week, he told the Washington Post: "It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq. I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting, eight million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world." Strange is right, because this is the same man whose visa to the U.S. was pulled after he had called Paul Wolfowitz, the deputy secretary of defence, a "virus," even publicly wished for his death -- all for that same policy that led to the invasion of Iraq two years ago this month.

It is early in this process, but Jumblatt, a controversial figure at the best of times, isn't hesitant with his prediction of where all this is going. To him, what's happening here is similar to those history-making November days 16 years ago. In fact, he made the direct comparison by claiming that the people in his world "all say that something is changing. The Berlin Wall has fallen." We'll see.

Peter Mansbridge is Chief Correspondent of CBC Television News and Anchor of The National.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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Yes I believe there will be peace, just like I believe al qaeda is fractured and broken...no they have not morphed into something completely different and more lethal...uh huh...I like mustard on my biscuits to.
 

tibear

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2005
854
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16
dukee,

Unfortunately, on this forum you will never get the majority of people to even acknowledge that Bush could wear a good suit, never mind he could actually have a policy that made sense.

Peter Mansbridge is usually a fairly neutral newscaster that reports the news and sometimes gives his commentary.

I will acknowledge that Bush has done plenty of things during his tenure that have been questionable but at the same time he has had alot of things thrust upon him. It would have been interesting to see how Gore would have handled the whole Sept 11 event. Would he have been able to "calm the waters" with the terrorists without sending in the US military? Its easy to throw darts at Bush and his policies when your not in power and don't have any control. Much like the NDP, they can complain all they want because they know the don't stand a snowballs chance in hell of gaining power. In fact, the NDP almost had a "party coronary" when they actually won power in Ontario and actually had a chance to run the province for a couple of years(what a disaster that was).
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
"when they actually won power in Ontario and actually had a chance to run the province for a couple of years(what a disaster that was)."

They quickly lost all that though; Mike Harris had to give them official party status, as they couldn't get enough votes to legally keep the status. I’m sure Mike only did that with hopes of a split left, because our current Liberal Premier wasn't as gracious as Mike was when the same scenario happened again to the NDP.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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"It would have been interesting to see how Gore would have handled the whole Sept 11 event"

no doubt.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
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Winnipeg
The NDP in your own province just gave you a tax cut, tibear. Why didn't you mention that?

Once again the article mentions Lebanon without mentioning that the largest protest by far was an anti-American one. It doesn't say that that the guy Bush wanted in power in Iraq (Allawi) got only 14% of the vote. I says nothing about the US backing the anti-democratic forces in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

The Middle East is changing, there is no doubt about that. It is also very clear that they aren't big fans of the US and that the US is backing the wrong people. Again.

Id the change attributable to the Bush regime, with their illegal war, threats, sabre rattling, and habit of killing civilians; or is it attributable to the people of the Middle East standing up for themselves in spite of the things that Bush has been doing?
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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I would not count on that tibear, when the majoritiy of canadians read how you think, they will put the muppets in charge before your party is ever elected. The "normal" conservatives better sooner than later rid themselves of mr. hair 45 and his "neo" conservative followers, before they completely destroy the conservative party.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
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Don't worry peapod, when we get a leader in there from Ontario, things will be different.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
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Re: RE: Maybe Bush was right

Reverend Blair said:
The NDP in your own province just gave you a tax cut, tibear. Why didn't you mention that?

Once again the article mentions Lebanon without mentioning that the largest protest by far was an anti-American one. It doesn't say that that the guy Bush wanted in power in Iraq (Allawi) got only 14% of the vote. I says nothing about the US backing the anti-democratic forces in Egypt and Saudi Arabia.

The Middle East is changing, there is no doubt about that. It is also very clear that they aren't big fans of the US and that the US is backing the wrong people. Again.

Id the change attributable to the Bush regime, with their illegal war, threats, sabre rattling, and habit of killing civilians; or is it attributable to the people of the Middle East standing up for themselves in spite of the things that Bush has been doing?

Ah yes... the demonstration forced by Hezbollah. What a nice group of gentlemen they are.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
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Winnipeg
Whether you like them or not, they are a political force in the Middle East, especially in Lebanon. You can't claim that demonstrations for your side are significant and democratic, then turn around and say a demonstration for the other side that is ten times bigger is not significant and democratic.

As I watched the people in the demonstration being interviewed something very significant came out though...it wasn't exactly a pro-Syrian demonstration the way it is now being portrayed in the media. Feelings about Syria seemed pretty mixed. It was very much an anti-Bush demonstration. They don't want you there Eaglesmack.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
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We do not want to be in Lebanon either.

If I was an anti-Syrian and lived in Beruit I would think twice about showing up at an anti-Syrian rally.

Hezbollah and the Syrian Secret Police does not debate peacefully... they blow you to Kingdom Come.

A match has been lit.

And yes... if there are FAIR elections and the pro-Syrian Govt. wins... so be it. However if Syria and the pro-Syrian Govt. has their way... these elections will be fixed.
 

dukee

Nominee Member
Nov 25, 2004
86
0
6
Saskatoon, SK
The seeds of democracy have been planted in a region that has far too long known nothing but oppression and hopelessness.

To wish for the failure of these processes is to hope for a bleak future for these people.
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
96
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USA
dukee said:
The seeds of democracy have been planted in a region that has far too long known nothing but oppression and hopelessness.

To wish for the failure of these processes is to hope for a bleak future for these people.

Here, Here
 

EagleSmack

Hall of Fame Member
Feb 16, 2005
44,168
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Re: RE: Maybe Bush was right

Reverend Blair said:
Who determines if the elections are fair? Your country clearly isn't qualified.

Oh brother. Why aren't we? I mean go ahead and let Canada monitor the elections but why isn't the US?

Because Bush won two elections and the loud mouthed liberals said it was a fix? They couldn't handle the fact that they lost... TWICE!

If Gore won or if Kerry won... would that make the US more qualified?
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Nobody is talking about limiting the way the people govern themselves. Don't try to paint it that way because it's far less than honest.

It is clear that they do not want the US or one of its puppet regimes ruling them though. Respect that for once.
 

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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That is not possible rev...this eagle has been infected with DDT, there is no hope. Thank goodness he crossed the line so to speak..you know gone down south.....ehm not that I believe he was ever here in the first place. :wink:
 

tibear

Electoral Member
Jan 25, 2005
854
0
16
The NDP in your own province just gave you a tax cut, tibear. Why didn't you mention that?

I stand corrected, the NDP did give me a tax cut. The delema now is to decide what day this year I want to buy that extra cup of coffee!!!

I will acknowledge that the NDP government in Manitoba has done a fair job but our taxes are still way to high and whats with it accounting procedures. When Hydro loses hundreds of millions of dollars the government doesn't include them in their "balanced budget", however when hydro makes hundreds of millions of dollars the government does include those dollars to balance the books. The auditor rips them last year for doing this and their only defense was, "We're not the only one doing this!!" What an attitude.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
"I stand corrected, the NDP did give me a tax cut."


OK i've heard it all now....NDP giving tax cuts?

No Diffrent (than the others) Party? (NDP)