Living Wage Policies

[MikeyDB]

Karrie

Even if you personally don't buy fifty steak knives, do you think it's reasonble to consider that millions of people buy things they don't "need" because they're influenced by the concerted effort to move dollars out of their pockets into the pockets of some corporation? Is it naive to believe that when Madison Avenue charges millions of dollars for advertising campaigns and network television companies pay millions for air-time and a thirty second spot on the Super-Bowl costs as much as it does that the costs for products is absorbed by a great many more than simply those few folk involved directly?

Have you ever seen a Nike Logo...or how about an Addidas logo....?

When your children need or want new running shoes...does the argument that these no-name runners are just as good...carry any weight with them at all?

When you turn on your television (if you watch TV) is the reason behind the hours upon hours upon hours of advertising that accompanies "programming" simply done as an exercise and actually has no influence on what people buy?

 

[karrie]

When your children need or want new running shoes...does the argument that these no-name runners are just as good...carry any weight with them at all?

When you turn on your television (if you watch TV) is the reason behind the hours upon hours upon hours of advertising that accompanies "programming" simply done as an exercise and actually has no influence on what people buy?

I've said before in this thread that people need re-educating, and add a decent slap upside the head frankly. But, I don't buy into the notion that those marketing are to be held to blame for doing their job. Holding them to blame for others' stupidity and gullability? No, I just can't see myself supporting that.

 

[MikeyDB]

Karrie

There are several trains leaving the station and some already have....

If we're prepared to let Churches hide their ciminals (pedophiles and sexual abusers)....If we're prepared to let governments at the behest of a few wealthy corporate influencers take our nations to wars based on lies....If we're content to watch as our children are conditioned to fulfil their role as the next generation of consumers without conscience...

Ok...I understand.

 

[karrie]

Karrie

There are several trains leaving the station and some already have....

If we're prepared to let Churches hide their ciminals (pedophiles and sexual abusers)....If we're prepared to let governments at the behest of a few wealthy corporate influencers take our nations to wars based on lies....If we're content to watch as our children are conditioned to fulfil their role as the next generation of consumers without conscience...

Ok...I understand.

Who's 'we'? You don't seem to be describing yourself. You don't seem to be describing many on here who speak loudly against such things. Just because we don't agree on the way to bring it about doesn't mean we all agree with allowing these things to continue.

 

[MikeyDB]

Talk is cheap Karie.

I refused to practice or participate in any organized religion long long ago.

Thanks for the dialogue.

 

[karrie]

Talk is cheap Karie.

I refused to practice or participate in any organized religion long long ago.

Thanks for the dialogue.

If I walk out my door Mikey, and stand in my yard demanding that my children clean the house, it will never get done. They won't hear me. I won't be able to move them. The house will remain filthy as they watch tv.

If I want the house cleaned, I stay in it. It's much more effective. Plus, despite the filth needing cleaning up, I like my house. :smile:

 

[MikeyDB]

And when you drive do you wear your seatbelt becuase its safer or because there are laws that compel you to wear it? And when you go shopping do you take what you want from the store shelves or do you pay for it? The list of laws and conventions necessary to get people to do what's in their best interests despite how they think is long Karrie very long.

You appear to be looking around and saying well its just what everyone does or doesn't do and no-one is responsible so I can't reasonably hold anyone accountable for what anyone else is doing....so everything is just fine!

Why bother considering the notion of a "living wage"...just let those who can make a living make a living and let those who can't die..... It is after all a perfect world where everyone makes all the right decision all the time and has all the information they need to make those decisions and any idea that some bear greater responsibility is a ridiculous notion right?

 

[karrie]

Why bother considering the notion of a "living wage"...just let those who can make a living make a living and let those who can't die..... It is after all a perfect world where everyone makes all the right decision all the time and has all the information they need to make those decisions and any idea that some bear greater responsibility is a ridiculous notion right?

It's just that not all issues seem to flow black and white, one issue to another.

The living wage issue.... I'm torn on that one.

What did you make of the notion that, instituting a 'living wage' then drives up all the other wages above it as people demand more pay because they're only making what a cashier at Tim's is making? The wages then all pop up above, and the people at the top once again have more money to bid on apartments, driving up the price of rent so that, once again, it's out of the reach of those who are at the bottom. You've mentioned the snake eating its tail, and it seems to me a living wage policy is much the same.

 

[Avro]

It's just that not all issues seem to flow black and white, one issue to another.

The living wage issue.... I'm torn on that one.

What did you make of the notion that, instituting a 'living wage' then drives up all the other wages above it as people demand more pay because they're only making what a cashier at Tim's is making? The wages then all pop up above, and the people at the top once again have more money to bid on apartments, driving up the price of rent so that, once again, it's out of the reach of those who are at the bottom. You've mentioned the snake eating its tail, and it seems to me a living wage policy is much the same.

What a load of garbage.

 

[MikeyDB]

Boiled Frog Syndrome

Some time ago I fixed a piano for a friend of mine. He owns a Technics electric piano that had started to double-strike although a single key was struck only once. He called a piano service-repair person who listed this piano and Rolands and other brands as his area of familiarity and expertise.

I watched as this service person disassembled the piano and began running a spectrum of tests on the various components. He could find nothing wrong and suggested he take the instrument back to his shop to run further tests using equipment he had there. After a week had passed the technician reported that he was stupefied that he could not locate any distinct problem responsible for this “double-strike”…. He returned the piano to my friend’s home and suggested my friend consider replacing the piano with a new one. This piano was after all fifteen years old! My friend paid the four hundred dollars to this gentleman for his time/work and set about getting comfortable with the idea of spending thousands of dollars for a new piano.

I researched the Internet and located an electric piano discussion forum. After reading a great many conversations I finally found one that focused on the exact problem my pal was experiencing with his piano! The identified problem was…. dirt! Bits of skin shed as normal exfoliation, hairs dropping from above and simply an accumulation of dust and detritus lodged itself under the keyboard mechanism that returned the keys to their normal position. People reported that a high-pressure air stream followed by a mild solvent with a repeat of the air stream…solved the problem.

Alex and I disassembled the piano and applied the requisite regimen to the appropriate areas. It worked! After reassembling the keyboard the piano worked as it had for fifteen years and continues to work properly these three years since we tackled the problem.

Delighted with the outcome, Alex bought me a coffee-maker knowing I love my percolated coffee and only drink instant if that’s all that’s available. I had been using a tiny two cup Melita that required that I boil water first then filter the water through grounds until…well I’m sure you’re familiar with this process. This new fangled stainless steel programable thermos equipped marvel of injected plastic and blinking light emitting diodes set him back a goodly sum more than a plastic funnel. While Alex’s piano continues to work well, that coffee maker ceased operation nearly one-year to the day from when it was purchased.

I managed to secure a coffee percolator from the dumpster behind my apartment and although it leaks and several parts are broken, it does make coffee and I can entertain friends more efficiently when they visit. The defuct unit sat in a corner of my kitchen for weeks and today I set about attempting to locate the problem (I think it’s electrical in nature) but found that the bottom panel is secured with a triangular shaped fastener that frustrates using anything but the right tool. A sticker on the bottom advises that no user serviceable parts are contained inside and no attempt should be made to open the body of this machine…..

My conversation with Karrie earlier today came to mind. Even if people make faulty decisions in their practices of living their lives, it seems obvious that industry and corporations would rather compell replacement before considering repair. While a design that could be serviced would serve the interests of the consumer, the interests of the corporation..in this case Black and Decker…dictates that this pile of components be either returned to the repair depot and more money paid for some technician to use his specialized tools to repair the machine…or you simply throw the unit into the landfill and happily go buy another percolator…

Anyone who’s looked under the hood of their horseless carriage will tell you, the days of the backyard do-it-yourselfer…are over.

The upcoming challenge is to replace analogue TVs with HD digital beauties that only require a contract with a supplier for the decoder box….

We hear about tons and tons of lithium batteries that once powered cellular telephones now contaminating landfills…unless of course you purchase a new phone and exchange the unit you have…. In which case in all likelihood the plastic shell, circuit board and battery will end up in a landfill….

Karrie’s of the opinion that the drooling idiots who purchase modern conveniences and fast-food at the local burger joint….etc. etc. are the source of so much rancor and dissatisfaction with an increasing pressure to be “re-cycle conscious” and “earth-friendly” and it all boils down to how stupid everyone is….

Karrie affirms that there is no responsibility on the part of industry or government to regulate so keen a policy as planned obsolescence and the generation of tons of highly toxic products plowed into the earth as part of the happiness and “prosperity” of modern consumption!

No we’ll look at the impact of shipping jobs and technology off-shore to “save” the inevitable (according to Kreskin) increase in prices that would follow paying people here a decent wage to do the same thing a child or a woman in some third-world country can do ….while manufacturers and corporations commiserate with out pollution problems ….and laugh all the way to multi-million and multi-billion dollar profits!

It’s the boiled frog syndrome. Our post-modern love-affair with instant gratification and immediate satisfaction of our wants and desires has provided industry and corporate hooligans with the perfect mechanism to turn the responsibility for many of our problems and issues right back on the ignorant fools who can’t manage their business!

We’ve been conditioned to expect ultra-cheap products and the only way those products can be made at an “attractive” price is to hire-out any necessary labour to third-world countries and of course inflate the sense of “prosperity” we all “feel” by managing to obtain junk built to fail and fill our landfills on a regular basis!

And the option of a “living wage” is brought up for discussion as though all the slovenly mentally challenged consumers in the world are their own worst enemies with the suspicion that re-distributing the available work and wealth will result in dire circumstances with an ever increasing dependency on hand-outs and a climate of expectation as the consequent effect.

All I can say is there’s no doubt in my mind regarding who’s convinced/brainwashed/conditioned and who isn’t!

 

[Kreskin]

Kreskin

Have you ever recieved a "pre-approved" credit card in the mail? Have you ever seen your "credit-worthiness" increased by the bank of lending institution whether you've asked for it or not?

It seems you're eager to believe that the cost of merchandise and process are bound to reason when in fact, "reason" is what advertising is all about and not necessarily reality. How many steak-knives does one person need? Now you could suggest and rightly that its a matter of personal directedness or will, but would you entertain the idea that when corporations spend billions to influence your choices that the price of steak-knives and everything else goes up...and this isn't something the individual controls?

Not everyone is inncocent but people need to take more responsibility for understanding what they do before they do it. There are people sitting in those financial institutions that are quite willing to provide detailed individual financial advice for free. They are quite capable and ready to help. There's a helluva lot more to these corporations than pre-approved credit card applications, and a lot of it is good.

 

[MikeyDB]

Kreskin

It will take some energetic convincing to change my opinion. One can comfortably I suppose ladle blame on the over-board fantasies of housing purchasers and yes to a considerable degree the responsibility is theirs...

But!....When the social fabric of society as a whole is directed to profit the corporations where does the event-wave occur? Is it the pictures of Italian tile in the foryer of huge homes plastered all over the pages of Home and Gardens or is it the "life-style" conditiioning of rehashed ex-rock-stars and WWF living cartoons..?

Where is the hunger for more seeded in the psychology of the consumer? Is it perhaps in the smiling faces of multi-millionaire baskeball stars hawking a pair of running shoes to a kid with the sublte promise that wealth and popularity can be theirs...if only they can convince Mom and Dad that these two hundred dollar running shoes will make them famous?

Is it perhaps the not-so-subtle focus on the life-styles of the hollow empty amoral like Paris Hilton or Anna Nicole Smith....or perhaps it's the foundation of prejdice that's levered into the kids through pointing out that an X-BoX is the phat today...or is it manicured lawns that everyone rushes to cut so "property values" are preserved while gasoline lawnmowers spew more toxins than an eight cylinder automobile...?

Where does it begin Kreskin?

Are you suggesting its all genetic?

 

[jimmoyer]

MikeyDB, I pretty much agree with you sentiments.

Where we'll both get into trouble is the solution.

You stated the issues and problems poetically and with real wisdom.

Here's some premises:

Decentralization is the most democratic of all processes and the most organic.

Centralization begs the issues of who gets to decide and how to prove or challenge if those decisions are correct or accurate.

If you can get past those Knarly Gordian Knots, I will belay the Nuts of the Round Holes to desist further promotional campaigns.

 

[FUBAR]

It is a bit ironic that the banner ads on this are for debt consolidation or loans.......

 

[MikeyDB]

Jim...
What a cut-up!

 

[karrie]

Karrie’s of the opinion that the drooling idiots who purchase modern conveniences and fast-food at the local burger joint….etc. etc. are the source of so much rancor and dissatisfaction with an increasing pressure to be “re-cycle conscious” and “earth-friendly” and it all boils down to how stupid everyone is….

Karrie affirms that there is no responsibility on the part of industry or government to regulate so keen a policy as planned obsolescence and the generation of tons of highly toxic products plowed into the earth as part of the happiness and “prosperity” of modern consumption!

You want to punish the corporations for the actions of the people, and you think I'm the one who thinks people are drooling idiots? I'm the one who thinks people can be responsible for their own actions and don't need someone to come in and hold their hands and tell them how and when to buy, by tearing down the existing market. I'm the one who thinks that educating people about the pitfalls is a wiser option than running ahead of them and trying to fill the pits in, hoping they won't trip and tumble. I think I give people's intelligence a lot more credit than you do Mikey.

BTW, the french press or the metal camping percolator are my fave coffee brewing techniques, because there's nothing to go wrong with them, and all you need is a heat source.

Oh, and, another thing. The triangular screw is a Chinese screw, much like the Robertson is a Canadian screw and messes up Americans. You can buy screwdrivers for them at Lowes. They're not tamper proof, just foreign. The statements from the company are there so you can't sue if you fry yourself fiddling with their coffee maker.

 

[Kreskin]

Kreskin

It will take some energetic convincing to change my opinion. One can comfortably I suppose ladle blame on the over-board fantasies of housing purchasers and yes to a considerable degree the responsibility is theirs...

But!....When the social fabric of society as a whole is directed to profit the corporations where does the event-wave occur? Is it the pictures of Italian tile in the foryer of huge homes plastered all over the pages of Home and Gardens or is it the "life-style" conditiioning of rehashed ex-rock-stars and WWF living cartoons..?

Where is the hunger for more seeded in the psychology of the consumer? Is it perhaps in the smiling faces of multi-millionaire baskeball stars hawking a pair of running shoes to a kid with the sublte promise that wealth and popularity can be theirs...if only they can convince Mom and Dad that these two hundred dollar running shoes will make them famous?

Is it perhaps the not-so-subtle focus on the life-styles of the hollow empty amoral like Paris Hilton or Anna Nicole Smith....or perhaps it's the foundation of prejdice that's levered into the kids through pointing out that an X-BoX is the phat today...or is it manicured lawns that everyone rushes to cut so "property values" are preserved while gasoline lawnmowers spew more toxins than an eight cylinder automobile...?

Where does it begin Kreskin?

Are you suggesting its all genetic?

But what is the answer, if that is what you want to call it? Everyone stop advertising or selling anything unless it's 100% proven necessary to purchase? If you think good jobs are scarce now, give that a try.

Is it genetic? To some degree, yes. We all want to feel good and be happy, at least from time to time. Money is a utility for doing that. But it is also misued because many don't take even a few minutes to do some basic arithmatic to see whether it makes sense or not.

 

[Zzarchov]

So MikeyDB, your plan still boils down a contradiction...

Its people who work for corporations fault, for trying to buy things from them, making them wealthy and us not wealthy.

So in punishment for the gullibility of people who got screwed in the equation by not having any self control, responsibility or rational decision making ability,

Those gullibile people, now have to rise up to make their own lives better, at the expense of the lives of others...

Because why?

If I say "By my art for $200,000" and you do. Who's fault is that? Mine for trying to get the most for my "art" or yours for spending $200,000 on crap?

Is that a breakdown of society or a build-up? I guess it depends on perspective. From the guy selling the art its making a living in the world with wits and skill.

For the idiot paying $200,000 for a piece of crap, its no doubt the decay of civilization since people are being tricked (aka not having responsibility for their decisions) into buying stuff they don't need.



The old idiom "A fool and his money are soon seperated" is not going to change no matter how much you try and supress peoples basic freedom of choice.

People have a right to make bad life choices, because quite frankly, its their life to lead.

I've made my share of mistakes and life, and I'd be damned if I'd have wanted someone to force me to make "The right choices" against my will.

 

[darkbeaver]

SOTT Focus ♥66 Shaping Conventional Wisdom

Henry See
SOTT
Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:41 EDT
©Unknown We ran an article recently on the Signs page about the elite that run the world. It is from a mainstream publication, about as mainstream as they get in the US: Newsweek. It is about the group of people the author calls the "Superclass" and who are:

"part of a new global elite that has emerged over the past several decades. I call it the 'superclass.' They have vastly more power than any other group on the planet. Each of the members is set apart by his ability to regularly influence the lives of millions of people in multiple countries worldwide. Each actively exercises this power, and often amplifies it through the development of relationships with other superclass members. This new class of elites is both more permeable, and more transient, than elites of the past... The top 10 percent of all people, for example, now control 85 percent of all wealth on the planet.
That such a group exists is indisputable. It includes the heads of the biggest financial institutions, the 14 families Blankfein joked about, and then some; the top 50 control almost $50 trillion in assets. The heads of the world's biggest corporations are also members; the top 2,000 support perhaps 500 million people, generate almost $30 trillion in sales and have well over $100 trillion in assets. The list also includes top government officials with real cross-border influence... media barons...religious leaders...cultural icons..."
http://www.sott.net/
We will extract a living from our environment efficiently and distribution difficultys will be eliminated along with the overlords, bankers will be hunted down and brought to justice or there simply won't be a future. Mankind needs to take a bit of time to prioritize, the overclass certainly has, it's not hard to understand the problems or the solutions. Do you want to be human or do you want to be wealthy?

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