Liberals Offend Military

Triple_R

Electoral Member
Jan 8, 2006
179
0
16
Citizen - It amazes me how you people see the Jean Chretien government, and the Paul Martin government, as two entirely different entities with no meaningful connection to one another... particularly considering how Paul Martin himself was one of the principle figures' in Jean Chretien's government!

If you're arguing that the Chretien government was corrupt, then it's hardly controversial to argue that the very chronological extension of that government - the Martin government, flying the same party flag, with the Finance Minister of old promoted to Prime Minister - is at least somewhat corrupt as well.
 

Triple_R

Electoral Member
Jan 8, 2006
179
0
16
Citizen said:
Triple_R said:
The Liberals should be ashamed of themselves!

It seems making a mountain out of a molehill is the modus operandi of neocons.

Extensively funding our military would only mean that it would be used more often by the U.S. in their terrorist activities around the world.

I'm a neocon because I object to a disgusting political attack ad? Jersay objected to it as well, and he's a strong NDP supporters. Is he a neocon as well? :?

I said nothing about funding our military, one way or the other. Nor did this ad.
 

KanBob

Nominee Member
Jan 11, 2006
71
0
6
Alberta
I don't see the issue here.

Money was stolen from taxpayers to finanace elections (1997, 2000, 2004, 2006).

Perhaps one or more of those elections were won because of that illegal funding.

Who knows?

Paul Martin refuses to say.

So those MP's may be sitting in parliament because of their parties corruption of the election process. Sounds like a pretty fitting description to me.
 

Citizen

Electoral Member
Jan 6, 2006
169
0
16
Re: RE: Liberals Offend Military

Triple_R said:
Citizen - It amazes me how you people see the Jean Chretien government, and the Paul Martin government, as two entirely different entities with no meaningful connection to one another... particularly considering how Paul Martin himself was one of the principle figures' in Jean Chretien's government!

If you're arguing that the Chretien government was corrupt, then it's hardly controversial to argue that the very chronological extension of that government - the Martin government, flying the same party flag, with the Finance Minister of old promoted to Prime Minister - is at least somewhat corrupt as well.

I don't believe Paul Martin "knew" about Chretien's more questionable activities when Chretien was leader. It's no secret that Chretien and Martin were arch rivals, ergo, it follows that Chretien would not have revealed these things to his Finance Minister. Remember that Chretien was the boss; he ran a tight ship; was characterized as a tyrant, dictator; and he could have fired Martin from that portfolio on a whim. My understanding is that, Chretien didn't want to see Martin as PM (I believe Tobin was his preferred choice).

Paul Martin has spent his entire career aspiring to be PM. It's completely illogical that he would be involved in anything corrupt that would obviously derail those ambitions.
 

Triple_R

Electoral Member
Jan 8, 2006
179
0
16
Re: RE: Liberals Offend Military

FiveParadox said:
As, too, should the Conservative Party of Canada.

The Conservative candidate for the Southern Interior riding of British Columbia, Derek Zeisman, has been charged with smuggling charges, and could be thrown into jail after his trial next month.

The Conservative Party says that it has no intention of removing his nomination, and is going to continue to support him; it would seem that the Tories are already faltering in their effort to clean up the Government.

How quickly, and convienantly, you turn from "innocent until proven guilty, regardless of many shady associations" to "guilty until proven innocent".

One minor regional political figure is nothing compared to a national scandal. I hope that Zeisman isn't elected, should he be guilty. I don't know if he's guilty or not, however.
 

Citizen

Electoral Member
Jan 6, 2006
169
0
16
Triple_R said:
Citizen said:
Triple_R said:
The Liberals should be ashamed of themselves!

It seems making a mountain out of a molehill is the modus operandi of neocons.

Extensively funding our military would only mean that it would be used more often by the U.S. in their terrorist activities around the world.

I'm a neocon because I object to a disgusting political attack ad? Jersay objected to it as well, and he's a strong NDP supporters. Is he a neocon as well? :?

I said nothing about funding our military, one way or the other. Nor did this ad.

Please accept my apologies. :oops: I sometimes get carried away, though that's certainly no excuse. I'm sorry. :)
 

nomore

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2006
109
0
16
Citizen said:
Triple_R said:
The Liberals should be ashamed of themselves!

Extensively funding our military would only mean that it would be used more often by the U.S. in their terrorist activities around the world.

It is comments like yours that make me realise how ill-informed many people are, and how filled with hate people like you are. Because nothing could ever be for a good purpose.

Because it couldn't possibly be, so that we could actually meet our peace keeping duties with the U.N, to actually contribute to the same levels as other industrialized nations.

Or, it couldn't possibly be, so that our soldiers don't die, because of inferior equipment. (submarines anyone)
 

Triple_R

Electoral Member
Jan 8, 2006
179
0
16
Re: RE: Liberals Offend Military

Citizen said:
Triple_R said:
Citizen - It amazes me how you people see the Jean Chretien government, and the Paul Martin government, as two entirely different entities with no meaningful connection to one another... particularly considering how Paul Martin himself was one of the principle figures' in Jean Chretien's government!

If you're arguing that the Chretien government was corrupt, then it's hardly controversial to argue that the very chronological extension of that government - the Martin government, flying the same party flag, with the Finance Minister of old promoted to Prime Minister - is at least somewhat corrupt as well.

I don't believe Paul Martin "knew" about Chretien's more questionable activities when Chretien was leader. It's no secret that Chretien and Martin were arch rivals, ergo, it follows that Chretien would not have revealed these things to his Finance Minister. Remember that Chretien was the boss; he ran a tight ship; was characterized as a tyrant, dictator; and he could have fired Martin from that portfolio on a whim. My understanding is that, Chretien didn't want to see Martin as PM (I believe Tobin was his preferred choice).

Paul Martin has spent his entire career aspiring to be PM. It's completely illogical that he would be involved in anything corrupt that would obviously derail those ambitions.

Actually, I agree. I think that Martin himself is probably innocent at a personal level when it comes to the Sponsorship Scandal. The Liberal party as a whole, however, is a very different matter. I agree with KanBob on that matter.
 

Triple_R

Electoral Member
Jan 8, 2006
179
0
16
Citizen said:
Triple_R said:
Citizen said:
Triple_R said:
The Liberals should be ashamed of themselves!

It seems making a mountain out of a molehill is the modus operandi of neocons.

Extensively funding our military would only mean that it would be used more often by the U.S. in their terrorist activities around the world.

I'm a neocon because I object to a disgusting political attack ad? Jersay objected to it as well, and he's a strong NDP supporters. Is he a neocon as well? :?

I said nothing about funding our military, one way or the other. Nor did this ad.

Please accept my apologies. :oops: I sometimes get carried away, though that's certainly no excuse. I'm sorry. :)

It's Ok. I've been passionate as well. I'll admit that I'm really starting to hate the Liberals. I've read of military men being profoundly hurt by this attack ad, whatever intent it may have. As a person who was raised to love our Canadian armed forces, and to greatly respect the sacrifices they made in WWII, this does hit home for me.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
You imply that Liberals and Liberal supporters do not support the Armed Forces, nor respect veterans. I would assert that this simply isn't true.

Whatever their intentions, I openly admit that the Grits made a stupid mistake on this one. I don't support this advertisement. However, that doesn't mean I can't continue to support the Liberal Party.
 

KanBob

Nominee Member
Jan 11, 2006
71
0
6
Alberta
Just one thing.

Since when did we start throwing people in jail in Canada for smuggling?

Have I been away?????
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
953
0
16
Calgary, AB
yes I was watching the news and clips of veterans who seem disgusted and hurt by this ad. These veterans and the young folks serving currently deserve not to be classified as scary or something we need to marginalize. The people who have supported the Liberals on this thread fail to address the fact that the Tory were proposing to have our forces in urban areas to help with any natural disaster or other need should one arise.....how the Liberals got it twisted is beyond belief.

The Torys also have nagative ads but the ads focus on Liberal corruption and arrogance, but the Liberals ads attack in a totally illogical way. I too like many on this forum "hate" the Liberals and I cannot tell you how glad I am to see them in their last efforts to hold onto power. Let the Liberals do thier cleaning up in the oppostion seats of parliment.
 

Triple_R

Electoral Member
Jan 8, 2006
179
0
16
Re: RE: Liberals Offend Military

FiveParadox said:
You imply that Liberals and Liberal supporters do not support the Armed Forces, nor respect veterans. I would assert that this simply isn't true.

Whatever their intentions, I openly admit that the Grits made a stupid mistake on this one. I don't support this advertisement. However, that doesn't mean I can't continue to support the Liberal Party.

I imply that it's possible that the Liberals (not the Liberal supporters, they never created this ad) do not support the Armed Forces, nor respect veterans. It baffles me how an ad can try to create fear about "soldiers with guns" being "in our cities", and for the producer of said ad to not think once... "Oh, wait, that is kind of anti-military, isn't it?".

So... either the Liberals are stupid beyond belief, or they're not overly fond of the military. Take your pick. Either one makes them not worth voting for, in my opinion.

Actually, I don't have a problem with you continuing to support the Liberal party. Perhaps you should contact that party, and voice your concerns to them on their ad campaign, and perhaps you can be a force for positive change in that party.

In any event, after reading some blogs on the ad, it's not outrage from the military that's going to do the Liberals in. It's the parody of this ad. The parodies of this ad are some of the funniest political satire I've ever read. I think it's going to become increasingly hard for undecideds to take the Liberals seriously.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
I was watching CTV at 5 pm PT, and I can see the hurt in the voice of the guy who writes the Military magazine says that the military has been deeply hurt by this.

He was noting that usually the military doesn't agree on most political things that effects this country, but he says now that this has solidified them into one group. And that is anti-liberal, either for the NDP or for the Conservatives. He said that with the ones, veterans and serving soldiers, they are not going to vote Liberal.

So if the liberal ad was an anti-military ad, then the military will go anti-liberal.
 

missile

House Member
Dec 1, 2004
4,846
17
38
Saint John N.B.
Re: RE: Liberals Offend Military

KanBob said:
Just one thing.

Since when did we start throwing people in jail in Canada for smuggling?

Have I been away?????
Quite a few of our locals have been put away for smuggling untagged tobacco,but,on the other hand,bringing the extra bottle or two across the border --no problem.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
Liberal support in the Military was 60% supposedly so this ad only hurts the Liberals politcally.

But does it raise the question that deep down, Canadians general Canadians fear the Canadian military, and lets go farther and the RCMP and other police forces believing that they would do harm to Canadian people through the use of a political party.

Being a member of the military it raises questions if the Canadian people really support our men and women if people in the back room some where can come up with something like this?
 

Calberty

Electoral Member
Dec 7, 2005
277
0
16
Liberal candidate (riding includes Esquimault":

""Some idiot went and sent it out with the other 11 ads, and it was never sanctioned by the party, never approved, and we are completely appalled that this went out. We apologize to the men and women in the uniform."

Today: Paul Martin advises he approved the ad and still stands by it.

Go figure.

Canadian sailors died on ships displaying the Canadian flag and Paul Martin made millions on ships displaying the flag of Liberia. I used to actually like Paul Martin (but not the Liberals) but now I call Martin an opportunistic pig.
 

KanBob

Nominee Member
Jan 11, 2006
71
0
6
Alberta
Re: RE: Liberals Offend Military

Calberty said:
Liberal candidate (riding includes Esquimault":

""Some idiot went and sent it out with the other 11 ads, and it was never sanctioned by the party, never approved, and we are completely appalled that this went out. We apologize to the men and women in the uniform."

Today: Paul Martin advises he approved the ad and still stands by it.

Go figure.

Canadian sailors died on ships displaying the Canadian flag and Paul Martin made millions on ships displaying the flag of Liberia. I used to actually like Paul Martin (but not the Liberals) but now I call Martin an opportunistic pig.

For shame! why so insulting to pigs? :lol:
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
Liberal Leader Paul Martin today defended an unaired TV ad accusing Stephen Harper of wanting to put armed soldiers in Canadian cities, saying the Liberals were simply showing the differences between the two party positions.



He also defended the rest of the series of ads attacking the Conservative Leader, saying they are not attack ads because they are true.



The military ad, which was never aired but which appeared on the Liberal website, was roundly condemned by soldiers who say it paints them in a negative light.



But Mr. Martin told CTV's Canada AM "there's no attack on the soldiers. We support the soldiers."


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"I support our military," Mr. Martin said. "I've probably put more money into the military than almost any prime minister.



"(The ads have) nothing to do with soldiers."



"I have increased soldiers' pay. I have a huge admiration for the soldiers," Mr. Martin said. "Take a look at what we're attacking. There's support for the soldiers."



The ad starts with ominous music in the background and declares Mr. Harper would put "soldiers with guns" in Canadian cities.



It says: "Stephen Harper actually announced he wants to increase military presence in our cities. Canadian cities. Soldiers with guns. In our cities. In Canada. We did not make this up."



Mr. Martin was asked why — after he accused the Conservatives of "drive-by smears" — his campaign was turning its guns on Mr. Harper.



"I think if you're in public life, you've got to be prepared to stand behind what you have said," Mr. Martin said in reference to comments Mr. Harper made 10 years ago, calling Canada a northern European welfare state in the worst sense of the term.



"That's not an attack ad. That is: You have a set of values; I have a set of values. Let's debate."



The Liberal Leader also said Mr. Harper's plan to establish a permanent military presence in major Canadian cities as a ready aid in emergencies — the pledge at the heart of the controversial Liberal ad — would dilute the Forces and create an administrative and logistical nightmare.



"It's not me," Mr. Martin said. "[The chief of defence staff, Gen. Rick] Hillier's the one who said: 'I want to have a Canada Command. I want to be able to really have top-flight soldiers in top-flight positions with top-flight equipment.'



"You can't do that if it's spread out all across the country."



The comments were the most extensive analysis Martin has offered on Liberal defence policy in the campaign to date.



However, another Liberal MP blamed an "idiot" in the party for allowing the release of the ad.


Keith Martin says the ad was "appalling" and apologized to members of the military who were offended by it.


The Victoria-area MP's riding includes CFB Esquimalt, headquarters of Canada's Pacific naval fleet.

Mr. Martin was a member of the Reform party and the Canadian Alliance before he bolted to the Liberals before the 2004 election.


In Markham, Mr. Martin unveiled a proposal to inject a $180-million in support for four research and development initiatives in Markham, Toronto and Waterloo. The concept is to bring together technology firms and university researchers.

Martin is ful of hot air. To me he has lost all credibility with this attack on the military. He might claim that it is not an attack on soldiers but it is, saying that they are just pawns used by Harper however he feels.

And because he has not apologized and will not, I hope no Military person past or present votes for martin and either votes for the NDP, the Conservatives, the Green, Fringe Parties and finally the BLOC if you have too.