Re: Kyoto
True. I guess it's my fault for adding too much reading material. I still haven't finished reading it...mind you the constant phone calls don't help.
Kyoto Protocol
- Thread starter Reverend Blair
- Start date
Re: Kyoto
You're correct, I was thinking of the naysayers though. Not many would want to slog through the whole report that they already refuse to believe in.
For those interested in checking it out. I'd recommend skipping to chapter 5.0 If you want to read the summary of climate change observations from the interviews therin.
CONTRIBUTIONS OF INUIT ECOLOGICAL KNOWLEDGE
TO UNDERSTANDING THE IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON THE BATHURST CARIBOU HERD IN THE KITIKMEOT REGION, NUNAVUT
CONTRIBUTIONS OF INUIT ECOLOGICAL KNOWLEDGE
TO UNDERSTANDING THE IMPACTS OF CLIMATE CHANGE ON THE BATHURST CARIBOU HERD IN THE KITIKMEOT REGION, NUNAVUT
Re: RE: Kyoto
Northern people are paying too much attention to people like you and are buying into the "sky is falling" panic. There is the inconvenient matter of actual measurements that leads to the inconvenient conclusion that temperatures there were quite a bit higher in the '30's, and those temperature increases and decreases were just as fast as the changes today.
As for Tuvalu, it's long been known that the island is sinking. It's also well established that sea level rise is minor and consistant with historical trends.
You might check out this:
http://www.cnsnews.com/Culture/archive/200412/CUL20041202a.html
It seems to apply to you.
Reverend Blair said:
Northern people are paying too much attention to people like you and are buying into the "sky is falling" panic. There is the inconvenient matter of actual measurements that leads to the inconvenient conclusion that temperatures there were quite a bit higher in the '30's, and those temperature increases and decreases were just as fast as the changes today.
As for Tuvalu, it's long been known that the island is sinking. It's also well established that sea level rise is minor and consistant with historical trends.
You might check out this:
http://www.cnsnews.com/Culture/archive/200412/CUL20041202a.html
It seems to apply to you.
Re: Kyoto
Look, first of all the people of the north are the ones who have been trying to get everyones attention to the issue. The arctic itself isn't as variable as you put it. Minor changes disrupt the wildlife severely. The changes that do apply up there over time is exactly that: over time, and the change isn't much.
The only reason I feel I have a say in this is that I had spent most of my life in the arctic. I've spoken with elders, spent time on the land, the written history is all around us there from the last 200 years, mostly from the whalers from the 1800's. It is understandable that there are warm seasons sometimes throughout a century, but what people are facing now are extreme changes. Thunderstorms for example were something that would happen once a decade, now it's every summer you may get more than one. Not once in written or oral history has anything like that happened before, and their oral history can give details of the weather patters predating the little ice age in the 1600's. Hell as I mentioned before it rained in Kugluktuk in January 2004 when it should be -55 to -70 (with the wind) there is nothing moderate about that.
People get stuck on the land because in the matter of one day in May it would go from -20 to +10 and turn the entire region into slush. I was even one of those unfortunates, witnessing these events with people who in their, or their ancestors lifetime did not expierience anything like this... I'm not even going to get into the industrial chemical and pollution that finds its way northward, but the Ozone hole of the 1980's was just the start.
I'd suggest reading that study
here. It's not an article written for a paper. It's an assessment by the people of the central Kitikmeot region using their knowledge of environmental history and personal history, and it's an official government paper not some reporters.
The changes up there cannot be stopped, but at least it can be taken as a warning...the sky may not be falling, but when your canary dies in the mine there usually is a reason for it.
The only reason I feel I have a say in this is that I had spent most of my life in the arctic. I've spoken with elders, spent time on the land, the written history is all around us there from the last 200 years, mostly from the whalers from the 1800's. It is understandable that there are warm seasons sometimes throughout a century, but what people are facing now are extreme changes. Thunderstorms for example were something that would happen once a decade, now it's every summer you may get more than one. Not once in written or oral history has anything like that happened before, and their oral history can give details of the weather patters predating the little ice age in the 1600's. Hell as I mentioned before it rained in Kugluktuk in January 2004 when it should be -55 to -70 (with the wind) there is nothing moderate about that.
People get stuck on the land because in the matter of one day in May it would go from -20 to +10 and turn the entire region into slush. I was even one of those unfortunates, witnessing these events with people who in their, or their ancestors lifetime did not expierience anything like this... I'm not even going to get into the industrial chemical and pollution that finds its way northward, but the Ozone hole of the 1980's was just the start.
here. It's not an article written for a paper. It's an assessment by the people of the central Kitikmeot region using their knowledge of environmental history and personal history, and it's an official government paper not some reporters.
The changes up there cannot be stopped, but at least it can be taken as a warning...the sky may not be falling, but when your canary dies in the mine there usually is a reason for it.
RE: Kyoto
Lindzen, Extrafire? When are you going to learn that people paid by Exxon, especially when they try to keep those payments hidden form the rest of us, are not reliable sources. The man has been thouroughly discredited by the greater scientific community.
The North is going through long-term warming. One of the links that I posted earlier (that you did not read) was about a recent find on the north that biota in northen lakes changed drastically around the time the industrial revolution started.
The permafrost is now melting. It has been there since the last ice age. The glaciers are disappearing. They have been there since the last ice age. It is happening at an unprecedented rate and the only variable that can explain it is us.
Tuvalu is not sinking. Data show that the sea level is rising because of the glaciers melting. Since it is a low-laying island...only a few inches above sea level...it is being affected more than higher pieces of land.
Lindzen, Extrafire? When are you going to learn that people paid by Exxon, especially when they try to keep those payments hidden form the rest of us, are not reliable sources. The man has been thouroughly discredited by the greater scientific community.
The North is going through long-term warming. One of the links that I posted earlier (that you did not read) was about a recent find on the north that biota in northen lakes changed drastically around the time the industrial revolution started.
The permafrost is now melting. It has been there since the last ice age. The glaciers are disappearing. They have been there since the last ice age. It is happening at an unprecedented rate and the only variable that can explain it is us.
Tuvalu is not sinking. Data show that the sea level is rising because of the glaciers melting. Since it is a low-laying island...only a few inches above sea level...it is being affected more than higher pieces of land.
Re: Kyoto
Hi. The Rev suggested I read the links. Did so until everything sounded the same. Basically, what I learned was that the writers supporting Kyoto come mainly from the left side and the ones disputing Kyoto come from the conservative side. So each writer had his own particular axe to grind, and to be fair, they all did it very well. However, after reading all that I did, I am no more convinced than I was before. Each side puts up compelling arguments and examples and statistics and graphs...well, you get the idea.
So, I'm back to where I started. Until there is conclusive proof I am opposed to Kyoto, more based on the costs than the actual goals.
Hi. The Rev suggested I read the links. Did so until everything sounded the same. Basically, what I learned was that the writers supporting Kyoto come mainly from the left side and the ones disputing Kyoto come from the conservative side. So each writer had his own particular axe to grind, and to be fair, they all did it very well. However, after reading all that I did, I am no more convinced than I was before. Each side puts up compelling arguments and examples and statistics and graphs...well, you get the idea.
So, I'm back to where I started. Until there is conclusive proof I am opposed to Kyoto, more based on the costs than the actual goals.
RE: Kyoto
Then you didn't pay enough attention, Blue. The pro-Kyoto links are backed by science. The anti-Kyoto links are backed by Exxon and have been debunked by science.
That's the difference between the two camps. It's like the anti-evolutionists who won't accept science. They even use the same techniques of data mining, misquoting, misconstruing, lying and fraud. The big difference is that Exxon doesn't fund anti-evolutionists.
Then you didn't pay enough attention, Blue. The pro-Kyoto links are backed by science. The anti-Kyoto links are backed by Exxon and have been debunked by science.
That's the difference between the two camps. It's like the anti-evolutionists who won't accept science. They even use the same techniques of data mining, misquoting, misconstruing, lying and fraud. The big difference is that Exxon doesn't fund anti-evolutionists.
Re: Kyoto
Kyoto's ratification may be a "left" or "right" issue. But The global warming involved doesn't give a shi* which hand you wipe your butt with. It's the only plan1 so far out there that may slow the process and would hopefully give us time to wean ourselves off of our currently destructive path. It's restrictions may be a little harsh, but sacrafices are usually needed when it comes to long term issues. I'm sure I'll most likley suffer from those cuts and restrictions, but I'm not thinking of myself. Perhaps I find that my children and their kin worth thinking about when it comes to where they're living. The left or right crap I keep hearing about is just a way to agree to disagree and get nothing done about the problem because we're too busy pointing out our foibles.
1- Yes there are other plans but they don't amount to much for making any significant difference. They're more of a front to make us feel secure that we are doing something, but not to make us think if we're doing enough.
Hi. The Rev suggested I read the links. Did so until everything sounded the same. Basically, what I learned was that the writers supporting Kyoto come mainly from the left side and the ones disputing Kyoto come from the conservative side. So each writer had his own particular axe to grind, and to be fair, they all did it very well. However, after reading all that I did, I am no more convinced than I was before. Each side puts up compelling arguments and examples and statistics and graphs...well, you get the idea.
So, I'm back to where I started. Until there is conclusive proof I am opposed to Kyoto, more based on the costs than the actual goals.
Kyoto's ratification may be a "left" or "right" issue. But The global warming involved doesn't give a shi* which hand you wipe your butt with. It's the only plan1 so far out there that may slow the process and would hopefully give us time to wean ourselves off of our currently destructive path. It's restrictions may be a little harsh, but sacrafices are usually needed when it comes to long term issues. I'm sure I'll most likley suffer from those cuts and restrictions, but I'm not thinking of myself. Perhaps I find that my children and their kin worth thinking about when it comes to where they're living. The left or right crap I keep hearing about is just a way to agree to disagree and get nothing done about the problem because we're too busy pointing out our foibles.
1- Yes there are other plans but they don't amount to much for making any significant difference. They're more of a front to make us feel secure that we are doing something, but not to make us think if we're doing enough.
Re: Kyoto
In 1841 Capt. James Clark Ross carved a mark into the rocks of the Isle of the Dead, Port Arthur, Tasmania. Using that mark, it has been determined that sea levels have risen only about 2 cm over the last 160 or so years. Current tide gauges in nearby harbors indicate sea level a sea level rise rate of only 1.6 cm per century.
Tidal gauges at the Funafuti, capital of Tuvalu and the nearby French island of New Caledonia show no sea level rise from 1978 through 1999. The data was used to refute the claims for compensation by the government of Tuvalu.
In 1841 Capt. James Clark Ross carved a mark into the rocks of the Isle of the Dead, Port Arthur, Tasmania. Using that mark, it has been determined that sea levels have risen only about 2 cm over the last 160 or so years. Current tide gauges in nearby harbors indicate sea level a sea level rise rate of only 1.6 cm per century.
Tidal gauges at the Funafuti, capital of Tuvalu and the nearby French island of New Caledonia show no sea level rise from 1978 through 1999. The data was used to refute the claims for compensation by the government of Tuvalu.
Re: Kyoto
That should be awfully convincing except that we've been keeping records of Arctic temperatures for quite a while now, and we know that it was warmer there in the 30's. Somehow I don't think anyone worried about climate change back then and made no special note of it. Now that we've all been panicked we think it never happened before. It did, and it will again.
Jo Canadian said:
Look, first of all the people of the north are the ones who have been trying to get everyones attention to the issue. The arctic itself isn't as variable as you put it. Minor changes disrupt the wildlife severely. The changes that do apply up there over time is exactly that: over time, and the change isn't much.
The only reason I feel I have a say in this is that I had spent most of my life in the arctic. I've spoken with elders, spent time on the land, the written history is all around us there from the last 200 years, mostly from the whalers from the 1800's. It is understandable that there are warm seasons sometimes throughout a century, but what people are facing now are extreme changes. Thunderstorms for example were something that would happen once a decade, now it's every summer you may get more than one. Not once in written or oral history has anything like that happened before, and their oral history can give details of the weather patters predating the little ice age in the 1600's. Hell as I mentioned before it rained in Kugluktuk in January 2004 when it should be -55 to -70 (with the wind) there is nothing moderate about that.
People get stuck on the land because in the matter of one day in May it would go from -20 to +10 and turn the entire region into slush. I was even one of those unfortunates, witnessing these events with people who in their, or their ancestors lifetime did not expierience anything like this... I'm not even going to get into the industrial chemical and pollution that finds its way northward, but the Ozone hole of the 1980's was just the start.
I'd suggest reading that study
here. It's not an article written for a paper. It's an assessment by the people of the central Kitikmeot region using their knowledge of environmental history and personal history, and it's an official government paper not some reporters.
The changes up there cannot be stopped, but at least it can be taken as a warning...the sky may not be falling, but when your canary dies in the mine there usually is a reason for it.
That should be awfully convincing except that we've been keeping records of Arctic temperatures for quite a while now, and we know that it was warmer there in the 30's. Somehow I don't think anyone worried about climate change back then and made no special note of it. Now that we've all been panicked we think it never happened before. It did, and it will again.
Re: Kyoto
I gotta go with Jo on this one...truth is I haven't investigated any of Rev's links, (sorry Rev...
) which I'm sure are fine, and informative...
...but I think we owe it to our children to clean up the shithole that our generation has created...whether it's affecting climate change or not...because, for me, I'd rather err on the side of caution, and of my kids...
...and why is it so important for the corporatists to be allowed to pollute anyway...I see it that they are potentially endangering us all to turn a buck...which makes them soulless bastards in my book...
Oh yeah...and I don't give a flying f**k about the price tag to clean this shit up...
I gotta go with Jo on this one...truth is I haven't investigated any of Rev's links, (sorry Rev...
) which I'm sure are fine, and informative......but I think we owe it to our children to clean up the shithole that our generation has created...whether it's affecting climate change or not...because, for me, I'd rather err on the side of caution, and of my kids...
...and why is it so important for the corporatists to be allowed to pollute anyway...I see it that they are potentially endangering us all to turn a buck...which makes them soulless bastards in my book...
Oh yeah...and I don't give a flying f**k about the price tag to clean this shit up...
Re: RE: Kyoto
Hmmmmm......According to the Rev, you shouldn't believe anything by anyone not qualilfied in the field in question. Suzuki is a geneticist. I guess I have just as much credibility on the environment at he does. I know for a fact that he has spread falsehoods about my area of expertise (BC forestry) whether deliberately or through ignorance, so I wouldn't trust him at all on the environment...... But that's just me.
Twila said:
Hmmmmm......According to the Rev, you shouldn't believe anything by anyone not qualilfied in the field in question. Suzuki is a geneticist. I guess I have just as much credibility on the environment at he does. I know for a fact that he has spread falsehoods about my area of expertise (BC forestry) whether deliberately or through ignorance, so I wouldn't trust him at all on the environment...... But that's just me.
Re: Kyoto
Home page of John Daly
http://www.john-daly.com/#nasa
John Daly's refutation of a claim by Pugh et al that there was a 13 cm rise in sea levels.
http://www.john-daly.com/deadisle/
More about Tuvalu claims
http://www.john-daly.com/press/press-02a.htm#funafuti
Vanni Fucci said:
Home page of John Daly
http://www.john-daly.com/#nasa
John Daly's refutation of a claim by Pugh et al that there was a 13 cm rise in sea levels.
http://www.john-daly.com/deadisle/
More about Tuvalu claims
http://www.john-daly.com/press/press-02a.htm#funafuti
RE: Kyoto
John Daly is a goof, Extrafire. Besides that, he's dead. When he was still alive he was recognized to be charlatan who misinterpreted data and used strawman arguments to mislead people.
Are these your heroes...liars, charlatans, con men, and other assorted ne'er do wells.
John Daly is a goof, Extrafire. Besides that, he's dead. When he was still alive he was recognized to be charlatan who misinterpreted data and used strawman arguments to mislead people.
Are these your heroes...liars, charlatans, con men, and other assorted ne'er do wells.
Re: Kyoto
EH? I didn't deny that it was warmer in the 30's. What I was saying that changes of warm/cold in the north are GRADUAL. What happened in the 30's was the normal ebb and flow, what's happening now is not normal.
If saying "it was warmer in the 30's" makes you feel better than say it, but that's just an excuse to ignore the bigger picture. If there were any inuks on this site reading this they'd say,
" i i i h u m i t o q !!!"
If saying "it was warmer in the 30's" makes you feel better than say it, but that's just an excuse to ignore the bigger picture. If there were any inuks on this site reading this they'd say,