Kyoto Protocol

[peapod]

Re: Kyoto

Bah! broke logger how fitting :wink: But hey you still got those carrots and cabbages, make yourself a big carrot and cabbage salad, but watch out for the "gas emissions" from the cabbage, koyto and all :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[LadyC]

RE: Kyoto

I come from a long line of loggers, and I can tell you that logging practices have changed over the years. I've had people tell me that certain areas shouldn't be logged as they're old-growth forests. Trouble is, the area had been logged about 100 years ago... and it was 2nd growth at that time.

Trees are a renewable resource, and can be managed efficiently.

Logging feeds my family.

 

[peapod]

Re: Kyoto

Come on ladyc you already know I have family members that were in the logging industry. I have seen alot of spawning rivers destroyed. But your right they have changed, they had no choice. But who knows what kind of "logging" fire does and did? And besides he has his cabbage and carrots to feed himself with.. gotta watch the "emission" on the cabbage tho. :wink:

 

[Jay]

Re: Kyoto

It hasn't so far. It isn't that nobody has been developing the technology, implementing existing technologies would allow us to surpass our Kyoto goals by a massive amount.

Ok, so you say the technologies exist, but that innovation hasn’t started to solve the pollution problems. If it exists, it’s a start. I don’t get it.

It is that there has been resistance from corporations and right-wing politicans (Bush, Klein, Harris, Martin, Harper) to the technology being implemented. .

Oh now I get it. It’s all the right wings fault.

Innovation and technology aren't some magic bullet either. They are very much something in which incremental gains are made slowly in several fields and, as such, require efforts from citizens, all levels of government, and corporations.

I thought we just went through this; we have the technology, but the right wing conspires to keep it all from us….

This goes along with your misguided assertion that science is a religion and scientists are priests. It shows a basic misundestanding of how things work.

I liked that one. More of your good will at work.

It presently takes more energy to create a litre of ethanol than the energy that can be gotten out a litre of ethanol. There is presently an enzyme being developed that would allow ethanol to be made from agricultural waste products such as wheat straw and corn stalks, but right now ethanol production requires only seeds be used.

Oh, so lets not bother then. Don’t bother turning corn seed into ethanol.

Brazil uses sugar, not sugar seeds. I hear you can get up to 1200 gallons of alcohol from one acre of Jerusalem Artichokes in one year, not the seeds though; you have to wait till the root is full of sugar. You can use wood (methanol) also.

I agree it would become very handy if this enzyme technology could be furthered and corn stalks, hay could be broken down easier, but there are viable alternatives to this and those alternatives are already working there way through the system.

Our governments and insurance companies, under pressure from various building and energy industries, have been very slow to accept alternative building materials such as straw bales and used tires. Insurance companies have also resisted environtmentally efficient technologies such as roof-top gardens.

I guess I’m not convinced that environmentally friendly buildings have to be made of straw bails, old rubber tires with roof top gardens either.

The auto industry was caught in a lie last year when they said they could not increase the efficiency of SUVs without drastically raising the price. A group of scientists grabbed an SUV off the lot and dramatically increased its efficency at a minimal cost using off the shelf parts.

Of course the fact that the auto industry has marketed SUVs and trucks to people who don't need them, making vehicles ever-larger and ever less-efficient, shows them to be...and there really is no other way to put this...pig-f***ers. They are marketing the vehicles that are worst for the environment the most and charging a premium for vehicles which have the oldest, least efficient, least safe technology and designs.

I’m not sure what this really has to do with signing on to Kyoto, but it would seem to me that you only have to read the article and ask your local auto mechanic to add the minimal costing, dramatically efficiency increasing, off the shelf parts to your vehicle. To suggest otherwise would be to insult the entirety of the certified auto mechanics industry.

Most medium to large-sized cities have mass-transit systems that are a bad joke at best.

Pollution has always been a number one reason to have public transportation. As new fuels are introduced, and technology improves (and of coarse the right wing conspirators allow us to have the technology) we will have less reason to need public transportation. Fuel prices will decrease and pollution will start to clear up, and hopefully the world will return to some normality.

A man in Newfoundland invented a catalytic convertor for small engines a decade ago. It would increase the cost of a lawnmower by $15.00, yet small engine makers have not adopted it and the government has not mandated it.

Ummm, so we all know that catalytic converters are part of the exhaust system. Why then doesn’t this person get a manufacturing license and build them. I will buy one; my wife would make me if she caught wind if such things anyways…I bet he could get a government grant to help him get started.

I could go on, Jay. The truth is that corporations have put pressure on governments not to get the innovations on the market though. The Liberals, especially the Martinites, are bad enough for not resisting the presure. Stephen Harper and his goose-stepping luddites would actually go the other way.

So the right wing conspirators have pressured the government to not allow energy saving products on the market.

How about crown corporations like Ontario Hydro have subsidized things like electricity production through coal burning plants, selling the electricity at half the rate it costs therefore not allowing the free market to determine usage and alternative RND and the will to go out an buy this new technology. Instead these crown corporations, through tremendous mismanagement, union pressure for wages that have no market competition with more than generous pensions, sink institutions like themselves and leave 30 billion dollars of debt to tack onto our electricity bills, money of coarse that could go to better energy technology.

I’m under the impression that those ppl who exist in these Crown Corporations vote left, not right, and get in the way of the free market to determine what will provide electricity to Ontario, and what will not and how. They only give up when they have sufficiently driven it into debt or some right wing conspiring zealot comes along and takes all the fun away.

 

[MMMike]

Re: Kyoto

Pollution has always been a number one reason to have public transportation. As new fuels are introduced, and technology improves (and of coarse the right wing conspirators allow us to have the technology) we will have less reason to need public transportation. Fuel prices will decrease and pollution will start to clear up, and hopefully the world will return to some normality.

Public transportation exist mainly to give poor people an affordable means of transportation, and to reduce gridlock. The reduction in pollution is just a fringe benefit.

 

[peapod]

Re: Kyoto

hahahha poor people take the bus. Have you seen the price of bus fare lately 8O Some people take the bus for just that reason, because of pollution. But than I live in british columbia, many people think that way..bah! forget the bus, ride a bike. This you will enjoy and you could end up also giving your heart some good workout and save the medical system a few bucks when they have to deal with the fat ass down the road. :wink:

 

[MMMike]

Re: Kyoto

Way cheaper than driving, Peapod. Great article in the Globe Wheels section yesterday on the full cost of car ownership. Taking into account gas, insurance, depreciation etc...., costs were running upwards of $13,000 per year (!!). That's some serious coin. I wish public transportation was an option for me - save some $$, avoid the stress of the DVP at rush hour.

 

[Jay]

Re: Kyoto

hahahha poor people take the bus. Have you seen the price of bus fare lately 8O Some people take the bus for just that reason, because of pollution. But than I live in british columbia, many people think that way..bah! forget the bus, ride a bike. This you will enjoy and you could end up also giving your heart some good workout and save the medical system a few bucks when they have to deal with the fat ass down the road. :wink:

That’s the spirit were looking for Pea. We need more bike riders for sure, and more bike paths in the cities.

 

[EmmaDibbs]

RE: Kyoto

I watched a really interesting program on the Gulf Stream and how global warming is decreasing the salinity of the ocean and that is slowing the Gulf Stream down- if it stops (which they concluded is pretty likely to happen) then climates in the Northern hemisphere will drop significantly. They actually said that becuase this is likely to happen that continued global warming could actually, strange as it sounds, be a good thing as the temperatures will not drop so drastically.

 

[peapod]

Re: Kyoto

Well I do live in the province where the "healthiest" canadians reside, and still most of them want koyto You see the fat cows and fat bastards tho, they want to continue their gluttony and destruction of the planet. And just because another country feels no responsiblity to this planet does not mean the rest of us give up. Bah!! I remember when people whined and carried on about recycling. Whats really exciting tho are the young people today, way more educated and careing about this planet, they will be the ones that make the real changes. Christ, it will be really something to see humans finally evolve into something better than what they are peddling around these days.

 

[mr_fitz]

Re: Kyoto

I started to read some of the papers (and commentary) Extrafire posted about cosmic rays and cloud cover. Interesting stuff. Basically the argument is that, except for the last two decades (important point) the last century had a coincidence of low cloud cover and incoming cosmic rays. There is some debate still about how this interacts with increased greenhouse gases over time - e.g., do they work together? In my searches I came across a more extensive bibliography on this issue (I am sure there are others) which claims to be unbiased, all articles on the issue, not just ones that say cosmic rays are the ONLY cause of global warming.
http://www.datasync.com/~farrar/ccbib.html

This all has me thinking that Kyoto is perhaps a misnomer for this entire thread. There are all sorts of excellent reasons to reduce pollution generally that can actually enhance our economy (e.g., Ballard Fuel Cells) and have little effect on our personal-wealth.

I think Extrafire was talking about ethanol and other technologies that will save the day - indeed they will play a role. Soo too will riding your bike, walking or taking the (fuel cell powered?) bus. There are no single solutions (although I hold a lot of hope for flying cars that run on garbage a la Back to the Future - that's just plain cool).

I am going to start a new thread...this one is too long...

 

[Jay]

Re: Kyoto

Kyoto is a way of ensuring that individual nations take responsibility, Jay.

Yes it is a way, but not the only way.

It hasn't worked yet. In fact things have gotten worse in spite of the technologies to make them better being available.

It is working Rev, it takes a bit if time. Signing onto an agreement you can’t keep isn’t going to speed it up anyways.

We aren't well underway. We have been stalled, and arguably moving backwards, since the 1980s.

Right, because there is no environmental movements, or environmental sciences or conservation, or education. Give me a break.

Without the international agreement the impetus to act is not there.

Really? You need an international agreement before your willing to take the one ton challenge? Or maybe you mean you need the US to bomb your country if you don’t follow what the international community says?

It’s BS that we need this internationalism to act on anything. No wonder the world is the way it is.

There has been no evidence of that to date, largely because of massive resistance from the corporate community who profit greatly from the oil economy.

Oh really, so I can’t buy wind mills, or solar panels, or recycling boxes, and composters, and natural lawn fertilizers, and other green products. There are no energy efficient cars or engines...

There are no ways that companies are making money off of green technologies that you’re aware of. I guess we will have to start a thread on it.

But they resist any law that might control them.

And we have national courts and police and detectives and MNRs and all sorts of ways of dealing with this already.

Governments should hold the power because governments represent the people. Corporations represent only their own bottom line.

You’re breaking some new ground there eh?

I didn’t say governments shouldn’t hold the power, I said they do and the corporations are along for the ride. The problem is with the governments and their inaction.

Corporations have also been integral to war for at least the last century. If you look at the mess in Iraq, they are the reason for the war.

Sure of coarse, the corporation is the only reason for war, the governments don’t have anything to do with it. :roll:

Whatever, I will tell the corporation I work for that they are war mongering and only the NDP has all the answers.

Your misconstruations of both Kyoto and the role corporations play in our governance are laughable, Jay.

Well then why don’t you and Jack Layton go and laugh it up then all the way to non-official party status?

The idea that a global problem can be solved without an international agreement is so naive that I question what turnip truck you just fell off of.

You go and count turnip trucks Rev, I don’t care; meanwhile Canadians will be doing their part. While you and the rest of the internationalists are busy spending money yakking about Kyoto, and flying planes all over the world, producing pollution, and doing nothing other than creating committees and bureaucracy internationally so lawyers can make big bucks, we the meager will take the one ton challenge.

I also think that your little statement is just the way you are. If it doesn’t jive with the Reverend Blair’s position then is laughable and turnip truck material. Give it up and the hostility around here will go down. Then you won’t have to delete so many posts.

The assertion that corporations will do what is right goes against all of the evidence we have available to us

The evidence would suggest Rev that governments run this world, and the failures of this world are that of governments. We don’t fight civil wars with corporations, it’s with governments, when we make law changes we do it in Parliament, not a board room.

I think you have a hard time admitting that governments have failed us, because you believe in big government and to do so would be to admit that the entirety of the left philosophy is a joke.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Kyoto

We need more of this

So you do support subsidized energy?

I thought you were against these sorts of subsidies?

 

[mrmom2]

RE: Kyoto

Jay you need to read some more .Our goverment the US ,Britain there all puppets of the globalists.Who are they there the ? there the mega corporations that control everything .They own you ,me ,the Rev they do what they want.Hears just a little sample

http://educate-yourself.org/nwo/ :wink:

 

[Jay]

RE: Kyoto

I spent many years with this NWO stuff mrmom...thanks for the link.

Let me ask you, do you think the NWO has prepared this Kyoto agreement, or did they somehow forget to orchestrate that one and it is the will of the ppl?

 

[mrmom2]

RE: Kyoto

They might just have. It gets implemented and you can bet will get the enviro police, Another set of eyes to watch us more taxes to cover the costs who knows?

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Kyoto

Ok, so you say the technologies exist, but that innovation hasn’t started to solve the pollution problems. If it exists, it’s a start. I don’t get it.

Most of it has been around since the late 1970's. It has been getting incrementally better. Most energy companies won't let you sell back into the grid during off-peak hours and the government has done nothing to change that in most places because of resistance to it from energy companies.

Oh now I get it. It’s all the right wings fault.

That's where the resistance has come from and continues to come from.

Brazil uses sugar, not sugar seeds. I hear you can get up to 1200 gallons of alcohol from one acre of Jerusalem Artichokes in one year, not the seeds though; you have to wait till the root is full of sugar.

We need to use crops that will grow here. Not a lot of artichoke farms in Canada. We also use much more mechanized farming which uses more fuel. We also use more fertilizers etc., again using more fuel. I thought you said you were a farm boy?

I agree it would become very handy if this enzyme technology could be furthered and corn stalks, hay could be broken down easier, but there are viable alternatives to this and those alternatives are already working there way through the system.

The alternatives in the system don't replace present fuels. Canada has also resisted eco-diesel. General Motors and Esso led the charge on that, even though it has been shown to work in Europe. The auto companies and gasoline pushers screamed like babies when the Doer government here said we were going to ethanol blended gasoline too. Nevermind that it's been in use all over the place for decades, they didn't want it.

I guess I’m not convinced that environmentally friendly buildings have to be made of straw bails, old rubber tires with roof top gardens either.

They don't have to be, but those are a viable alternative that is not only extremely efficient, but offer solutions to what to do with waste products. There is no reason to oppose them except the financial interests of some large corporations.

I’m not sure what this really has to do with signing on to Kyoto, but it would seem to me that you only have to read the article and ask your local auto mechanic to add the minimal costing, dramatically efficiency increasing, off the shelf parts to your vehicle. To suggest otherwise would be to insult the entirety of the certified auto mechanics industry.

Why can't they put them together like that on the production line? What about the warranty? Why was the auto industry lying to us? Why should we have to pay for the vehicle, then again to be brought up to par?

Pollution has always been a number one reason to have public transportation. As new fuels are introduced, and technology improves (and of coarse the right wing conspirators allow us to have the technology) we will have less reason to need public transportation. Fuel prices will decrease and pollution will start to clear up, and hopefully the world will return to some normality.

Yeah, that's what Droolin' Ronnie Rayguns said too. Twenty-five years ago. He also said that trees pollute and ketchup was a vegetable. Things have gotten worse, not better.

Ummm, so we all know that catalytic converters are part of the exhaust system. Why then doesn’t this person get a manufacturing license and build them. I will buy one; my wife would make me if she caught wind if such things anyways…I bet he could get a government grant to help him get started.

Why hasn't the government, a decade after he invented it, insisted that it go on every small gas engine? Why have your almighty corporations refused to put them on voluntarily? Why did the small engine companies insist such a thing was impossible when a man in a muffler shop was able to build one? He did try to sell it. He went to the government and to the corporations. They told him to piss off.

Yes it is a way, but not the only way.

Your way hasn't worked. If it did we wouldn't need Kyoto.

It is working Rev, it takes a bit if time. Signing onto an agreement you can’t keep isn’t going to speed it up anyways.

I was in grade four when the first energy crisis hit. Pollution was already a concern. We have gone backwards since then. Industry, especially the auto and oil industries, have loudly opposed any moves forward. Time's up.

Right, because there is no environmental movements, or environmental sciences or conservation, or education. Give me a break.

Things have gotten worse, not better. Look around.

Really? You need an international agreement before your willing to take the one ton challenge?

I was doing all of this before because it saves me money and makes my house more comfortable. I plan to do more as time and money permit. That includes the one-ton challenge. By the way, I took the challenge according to the way this place was when we moved in compared to the way it is now...I'm six tonnes ahead. I think we do another four over the next ten years or so. All you people living in old houses should keep that in mind. Even planting the right trees in the right places makes a difference.

It’s BS that we need this internationalism to act on anything. No wonder the world is the way it is.

It's an international problem. It needs an international agreement.

Oh really, so I can’t buy wind mills, or solar panels, or recycling boxes, and composters, and natural lawn fertilizers, and other green products. There are no energy efficient cars or engines...

There are no ways that companies are making money off of green technologies that you’re aware of. I guess we will have to start a thread on it.

It has very much been portrayed in the corporate media as something only the fringe people do. 1973 was long time ago. Slow progress was made until 1980 when suddenly stupid, self-centred greed came into vogue.

And we have national courts and police and detectives and MNRs and all sorts of ways of dealing with this already.

Try to bring in new regulations though. Look at the way the Conservatives are screaming about Kyoto. Look at NAFTA, where private corporations can sue governments in order to keep their polluting products on the market.

I didn’t say governments shouldn’t hold the power, I said they do and the corporations are along for the ride. The problem is with the governments and their inaction.

That inaction is forced by corporations. Did you look up the links I put up on astroturfs? Did you read any of the links I put up?

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Kyoto

They might just have. It gets implemented and you can bet will get the enviro police, Another set of eyes to watch us more taxes to cover the costs who knows?

I did mention the police thing earlier. I know that will happen.

NWO is just another reason to not support this.

 

[Extrafire]

Re: Kyoto

I think Extrafire was talking about ethanol and other technologies that will save the day - indeed they will play a role. Soo too will riding your bike, walking or taking the (fuel cell powered?) bus. There are no single solutions (although I hold a lot of hope for flying cars that run on garbage a la Back to the Future - that's just plain cool).

Actually I was pointing out the fact that human emissions have no noticeable effect on the climate, and even if they did, Kyoto would have absolutely no effect on the "problem". I also pointed out that the sun is the MAJOR influence on climate change and the effect of the interaction of sunspots and cosmic rays on earth's climate corresponds to known climate variations in the past.

When I first heard of Mann's hockey stick graph my reaction was that it couldn't be right because it omitted the medieval climate optimum and the little ice age, both of which correlate with sun spot activity. McIntyre & McKittrick also notice this, and examined his work, discovering that he didn't follow scientific proceedure. They then proceeded to expose his work for the fraud that it was.

I don't care for ethanol as a fuel. I tried it from the Mohawk station and my engine wouldn't run properly.

I do like hydrogen, if they could ever figure out how to make it with less energy than it delivers. I think it will be the next major fuel. Unlimited supply, non-poluting! There is some evidence that it can be made efficiently from nuclear pebble-bed reactors as a by product.

After that the next major energy source will be something like "Back to the Futrue" cold fusion. Unlimited energy for the whole world! I hope I live long enough to see it.

But Kyoto? Forget it. Doesn't work and the next stage won't happen. Italy is already suggesting it be abandoned, and China and India won't be dumb enough to sign on.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Kyoto

:roll:

Your hockey stick idea has been shot to hell. So have the sunspots, cosmic rays, global warming as a positive force, and the serious problem of toenail fungus.

I've provided links, and I can provide more.