Kyoto Protocol

[mr_fitz]

Re: RE: Kyoto

Kyoto, in my opinion, and that is just that.. my opinion, is based upon junk science... the same science that tells us one week, chocolate will save your colon one week, and will give you eye cancer the next. No I do not have proof, research or other.... because I said it was an opinion... Some people don't beleive in Evolution (while there is science that backs it up) I choose not to beleive that a 1 ton challange will do anything. With countries like China, and the US not taking part, what is the use?

One winter my friend was of the strong opinion that jumping on a thin stretch of ice was safe. He broke through and fell in - almost froze to death. Nature proved him wrong (he even admits begrudgingly that he was, perhaps, not entirely correct : )).

Point of order, the science that says chocolate will give you colon cancer is not the same science as the science which shows us that the planet's climate is changing (esp. temperature increases) because of human activity. Health studies like that are based largely on epidemiology (some good, some bad, but few studies are actually replicated!), climate change is based on a whole host of other disciplines (e.g., physics, chemistry), many many studies, and 90% of that science points in the same direction - anthropogenically-caused GCC is happening!

How do we slow it down? is the question now. Most of the politicians now concede it is happening and have moved on to this question.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Re: Kyoto

How do we slow it down?

Reduce emissions, then reduce them some more. The key is really in getting the idea of unlimited growth with limited resources out of our heads.

We are basically doing the same thing that the people of Easter Island did. That led to an ecological collapse which, in turn, led to a population crash.

Easter Island is an apt example because they were stuck on that island just as we are stuck on earth. There is no place to move on to.

We are about to learn what the guy who cut down the last tree on Easter Island was thinking. We are that guy.

 

[MMMike]

Re: Kyoto

The guzzler tax I'd like to see works like this: It is based on the class of vehicle, the kilometres driven yearly, and the mileage rating of the vehicle. Using my vehicles as an example (and pretending that the Big Green Truck had a motor, because it's the gas guzzler)...

Seems overly complicated, overly bureaucratic. A liberals dream! :lol:

 

[MMMike]

Re: Kyoto

Kyoto, in my opinion, and that is just that.. my opinion, is based upon junk science... the same science that tells us one week, chocolate will save your colon one week, and will give you eye cancer the next.

Disagree completely. I agree that "science" has been extremely contradictory especially relating to nutrition, diet fads etc... (the Vitamin E controversy, the benefits of eating fish). But using the nutrition analogy, I think looking at the big picture has shown that following a strategy of a well-balanced diet, and everything in moderation is the best way to go, and you can ignore all of these latest health "bulletins". Applying a similar lesson to the environment, I learn that while some of the studies may be exagerating, the overall lesson should be clear: we cannot continue to dump pollutants into the air, water and land without consequences. This will come back to roost in one form or another. I'm not completely sold on the global warming phenomenom, but I whole heartedly believe in the merits of reducing pollution and moving to a more sustainable way of life.

 

[Jay]

Re: Kyoto

[But using the nutrition analogy, I think looking at the big picture has shown that following a strategy of a well-balanced diet, and everything in moderation is the best way to go, and you can ignore all of these latest health "bulletins"..

And you don’t need a scientist to tell you this. But it is the “scientists’ who produce the “bulletins”.

Applying a similar lesson to the environment, I learn that while some of the studies may be exagerating, the overall lesson should be clear: we cannot continue to dump pollutants into the air, water and land without consequences. This will come back to roost in one form or another. .

And again we don’t need a scientist to tell us this. We certainly don’t need to sign international agreements on the issue either. Canadian pollution is a Canadian affair. We will deal with it the way we need to deal with it, not the way Japan wants us to or the Americans or the Russians….


The scientists are the new white-robed preists.

 

[Hard-Luck Henry]

Re: Kyoto

We certainly don’t need to sign international agreements on the issue either. Canadian pollution is a Canadian affair. quote]

8O What a ludicrous statement. What you don't need a scientist to tell you is that global climate change, by definition, affects everyone on the globe. So Canada's pollution, like everybody else's, is clearly a global affair.

(I find it hard to believe anyone is actually small-minded enough to mean what you've just stated, Jay; You must surely be playing devil's advocate?)

 

[peapod]

Re: Kyoto

HA! Its because of people like him and his attitude that this planet is being ruined. all he cares about his himself and his selfish narrow little world...a lovely legacy to leave the childern of this planet.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Re: Kyoto

We certainly don’t need to sign international agreements on the issue either. Canadian pollution is a Canadian affair.

As Hard-Luck Henry already stated, this statement is ridiculous. I live in the Netherlands, which has one of the worst air qualities of the world. Do you think we got all the pollution from our own industries? Guess again. I once read that up to ten years ago, up to 50% of all Dutch air pollution came from the German Ruhr-area ALONE. When the Chernobyl factory exploded in the Ukraine, we Dutchmen had to be careful with our crops, because they could be contaminated due to the radioactive pollution. Air pollution, or any other pollution, does not care about national borders.

 

[peapod]

Re: Kyoto

Its a first step that all. Everything starts somewhere even if its just idea.

 

[Jay]

Re: Kyoto

(I find it hard to believe anyone is actually small-minded enough to mean what you've just stated, Jay; You must surely be playing devil's advocate?)

Thank you for the benefit of doubt.

What you don't need a scientist to tell you is that global climate change, by definition, affects everyone on the globe. So Canada's pollution, like everybody else's, is clearly a global affair.

Your right, we don’t need a scientist to tell us that either.

We (as in Canada) do not need to sign onto international agreements that we have no need of or are not capable (as of yet) to meet.

It is a clear vote grabber for those who lean on the left. That’s how it works in Canada. Left leaning parties make all sorts of promises and then get voted in, and don’t come through with them. Why embarrass ourselves internationally over it?

We need to set clear goals for retooling our nation to cleaner forms of manufacturing etc.

We may need a few tons of pollution to get there to boot, so why restrict ourselves?

I believe in Canadians, and we will do the right thing and the right thing isn’t limited to signing international treaties on pollution.

As if to say Kyoto is a big minded idea…..

England has been polluting France and Norway for how long now? You (as in England) didn’t seem to care much about it in the past. So I don’t think it is small minded to suggest that Canada’s national affairs are just that Canada’s national affairs.

 

[Jay]

Re: Kyoto

HA! Its because of people like him and his attitude that this planet is being ruined. all he cares about his himself and his selfish narrow little world...a lovely legacy to leave the childern of this planet.

of coarse Pea....of coarse. You would know.

 

[Jay]

Re: Kyoto

We certainly don’t need to sign international agreements on the issue either. Canadian pollution is a Canadian affair.

As Hard-Luck Henry already stated, this statement is ridiculous. I live in the Netherlands, which has one of the worst air qualities of the world. Do you think we got all the pollution from our own industries? Guess again. I once read that up to ten years ago, up to 50% of all Dutch air pollution came from the German Ruhr-area ALONE. When the Chernobyl factory exploded in the Ukraine, we Dutchmen had to be careful with our crops, because they could be contaminated due to the radioactive pollution. Air pollution, or any other pollution, does not care about national borders.

If the EU wishes to make pollution a prority, it is more than welcome to do so.

Are accidents like Chernobyl covered by Kyoto?

 

[peapod]

Re: Kyoto

Yes Jay I would cause I actually read your stuff. You are about yourself and your own little world and how it effects you. Fine!!!! You are not alone. But there are many of us...and a whole generation of young people coming up behind you that want to save this planet. Our world is bigger than ourselves.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Re: Kyoto

We certainly don’t need to sign international agreements on the issue either. Canadian pollution is a Canadian affair.

As Hard-Luck Henry already stated, this statement is ridiculous. I live in the Netherlands, which has one of the worst air qualities of the world. Do you think we got all the pollution from our own industries? Guess again. I once read that up to ten years ago, up to 50% of all Dutch air pollution came from the German Ruhr-area ALONE. When the Chernobyl factory exploded in the Ukraine, we Dutchmen had to be careful with our crops, because they could be contaminated due to the radioactive pollution. Air pollution, or any other pollution, does not care about national borders.

If the EU wishes to make pollution a prority, it is more than welcome to do so.

Are accidents like Chernobyl covered by Kyoto?

Luckily the EU has already made pollution a priority ... but it is still far too little, and far too late. I don't know whether accidents like Chernobyl are covered by Kyoto. I do know that an accident like that can influence our lives 2,000 kilometres away. That's why Canada should realize, just like any other country, that pollution does not only influence Canadians.

 

[Jay]

Re: Kyoto

Yes Jay I would cause I actually read your stuff. You are about yourself and your own little world and how it effects you. Fine!!!! You are not alone. But there are many of us...and a whole generation of young people coming up behind you that want to save this planet. Our world is bigger than ourselves.

Thanks Pea for explaining yourself, rather than just trying to make me look bad.

I'm not that old...I suspect not much older than you...I want the world to be a better place also, we just do not agree on how we should do it.

I come from a place where I spent much time in the wilderness, a nice pristine place. I wish for that to not disappear. I have many ideas of how to put positive change into place without destroying our economy and taxing everyone to death over it.

Thanks again.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

RE: Kyoto

But don't you think nothing will change when economy is always put before environment?

 

[Jay]

Re: Kyoto

That's why Canada should realize, just like any other country, that pollution does not only influence Canadians.

We do realize this....and I do too. But this isn't Europe, and we arn't the big polluter on the street, and we should have the right to deal with this as we see fit, just like Europe has for many years.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Kyoto

But don't you think nothing will change when economy is always put before environment?

Innovation will deal with this. The economy is paramount to our standard of living; it’s going to have an effect on our national psychology. We are becoming more technological as each day passes. I have every faith innovation will come to the rescue, long before idleness.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

RE: Kyoto

Look, I'd rather see the US or China being pushed for changes than Canada, because they are bigger polluters. But it doesn't take away that it is also Canada - just like the Netherlands, just like Spain, just like Australia, just like Estonia - who pollutes. And I believe that a country can criticize another country like Canada and influence their environmental policies when it is Canadian pollution affecting the other country. Now, I do not want to make Canada an exception on this, like they are extremely bad on doing their job or anything. This applies to the entire world, to all nations.

 

[Rick van Opbergen]

Re: RE: Kyoto

But don't you think nothing will change when economy is always put before environment?

Innovation will deal with this. The economy is paramount to our standard of living; it’s going to have an effect on our national psychology. We are becoming more technological as each day passes. I have every faith innovation will come to the rescue, long before idleness.

But we don't know when this innovation will come, do we?