Judge Has No Business to Outlaw Pledge in Schools

[Nascar_James]

Rev, here is a link showing that our U.S. Constitution was founded on Biblical principles and it was the intention of the authors for this to be a Christian nation.

http://www.noapathy.org/tracts/mythofseparation.html

Here's an exerpt ...

We can go back in history and look at what the founding fathers wrote to know where they were getting their ideas. This is exactly what two professors did. Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman reviewed an estimated 15,000 items with explicit political content printed between 1760 and 1805 and from these items they identified 3,154 references to other sources. The source they most often quoted was the Bible, accounting for 34% of all citations. Sixty percent of all quotes came from men who used the Bible to form their conclusions. That means that 94% of all quotes by the founding fathers were based on the Bible. The founding fathers took ideas from the Bible and incorporated them into our government. If it was their intention to separate the state and church they would never have taken principles from the Bible and put them into our government. An example of an idea taken from the Bible and then incorporated into our government is found in Isaiah 33:22 which says, "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king..."

 

[Reverend Blair]

Read the quotes, James. You claimed that your founding fathers were Christians, yet they defined themselves as deists. You claimed that there was no intent on their behalf of separating church and state, yet they themselves voiced this intent.

On to George Washington. You remember him, James...funny wig, wooden teeth, a fetish for axing cherry trees?

The following year [1784], when asking Tench Tilghman to secure a carpenter and a bricklayer for his Mount Vernon estate, he [Washington] remarked: "If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists." As he told a Mennonite minister who sought refuge in the United States after the Revolution: "I had always hoped that this land might become a safe and agreeable Asylum to the virtuous and persecuted part of mankind, to whatever nation they might belong...." He was, as John Bell pointed out in 1779, "a total stranger to religious prejudices, which have so often excited Christians of one denomination to cut the throats of those of another." (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, p. 118. According to Boller, Washington wrote his remarks to Tilghman in a letter dated March 24, 1784; his remarks to the Mennonite--Francis Adrian Van der Kemp--were in a letter dated May 28, 1788.)

It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it was by the indulgence of one class of the people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights. For happily the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that those who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens in giving it, on all occasions, their effectual support. (George Washington, letter to the congregation of Touro Synagogue Jews, Newport, Rhode Island, August, 1790. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 500.)

In the Enlightened Age and in this Land of equal Liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States. (George Washington, letter to the members of the New Church in Baltimore, January 27, 1793. Quoted in Richard B. Morris, Seven Who Shaped Our Destiny: The Founding Fathers as Revolutionaries, Harper & Row, 1973, p. 269.)

... Bird Wilson, Episcopal minister in Albany, New York, was one of the first openly to challenge in public the pietistic picture of Washington that was being built up by [Mason Locke] Weems and his followers. In a sermon delivered in October, 1831, which attracted wide attention when it was reported in the Albany Daily Advertiser, Wilson stated flatly that "among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion, at least not of more than unitarianism." Washington, he went on to say, was a great and good man, but he was not a professor of religion; he was really a typical eighteenth-century Deist, not a Christian, in his religious outlook. (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 14-15.)

Unlike Thomas Jefferson--and Thomas Paine, for that matter--Washington never even got around to recording his belief that Christ was a great ethical teacher. His reticence on the subject was truly remarkable. Washington frequently alluded to Providence in his private correspondence. But the name of Christ, in any correspondence whatsoever, does not appear anywhere in his many letters to friends and associates throughout his life. (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, pp. 74-75.)

... if to believe in the divinity and resurrection of Christ and his atonement for the sins of man and to participate in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper are requisites for the Christian faith, then Washington, on the evidence which we have examined, can hardly be considered a Christian, except in the most nominal sense. (Paul F. Boller, George Washington & Religion, Dallas: Southern Methodist University Press, 1963, p. 90.)

[on Washington's first inaugural speech in April 1789] . .. That he was not just striking a popular attitude as a politician is revealed by the absence of of the usual Christian terms: he did not mention Christ or even use the word "God." Following the phraseology of the philosophical Deism he professed, he referred to "the invisible hand which conducts the affairs of men," to "the benign parent of the human race." (James Thomas Flexner, George Washington and the New Nation [1783-1793], Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1970, p. 184.)

Washington's religious belief was that of the enlightenment: deism. He practically never used the word "God," preferring the more impersonal word "Providence." How little he visualized Providence in personal form is shown by the fact that he interchangeably applied to that force all three possible pronouns: he, she, and it. (James Thomas Flexner, George Washington: Anguish and Farewell [1793-1799], Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1972, p. 490.)

Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative. George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian. In the enlightened tradition of his day, he was a devout Deist--just as many of the clergymen who knew him suspected. (Barry Schwartz, George Washington: The Making of an American Symbol, New York: The Free Press, 1987, pp. 174-175.)

 

[no1important]

Rev. I still say the interface between church and state has always existed. Example ... in court, why must one swear under oath to tell the truth?

I know here we can "Affirm" instead of swearing on the bible.

 

[no1important]

8O double post 8O

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Judge Has No Business

The founding fathers took ideas from everywhere, James. They were liberals, after all. They explicitly spoke out against the mixing of church and state though, and few of them professed a belief in the Christain god. Even Jefferson, who wrote extensively on the life of Jesus, did not consider Jesus to be a god, but rather a political revolutionary and a philosopher.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Rev, the US Declaration of Independance which was adopted in Congress on July 4th 1776 had the following statement:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Reference to God is as clear as day.

nope , it is NOT. (clear as day). it might be to you, as you read what you want into it.... :roll: You are ASSUMING that the "creator" is defined as "God".....or a version of.

Not sure one should get so bent out of shape about this item......when bush is devestating the constitution, the country and gosh knows what else.....on a continuing basis. There are bigger fish to fry in this USRegime mess. And more important issues.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Not sure one should get so bent out of shape about this item......when bush is devestating the constitution, the country and gosh knows what else.....on a continuing basis. There are bigger fish to fry in this USRegime mess. And more important issues.

I see getting Americans to educate themselves on what their founding actually said as being a major step towards taking power away from the liars and fundamentalists who have seized control down there, Ocean.

The United States of America was founded by liberal thinkers striving for a better world. They believed in freedom of speech, freedom of (and from) religion, and the idea that every citizen deserved the same rights and freedoms as the elite.

That's a far, far cry from the religious dogmatism and repression that is represented by the Bush regime and their allies on the religious right.

Nobody who claims to be real American, who knows what the United States was meant to stand for, can possibly support either the Christian fundamentalists or the Republican Party in its current state.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Not sure one should get so bent out of shape about this item......when bush is devestating the constitution, the country and gosh knows what else.....on a continuing basis. There are bigger fish to fry in this USRegime mess. And more important issues.

I see getting Americans to educate themselves on what their founding actually said as being a major step towards taking power away from the liars and fundamentalists who have seized control down there, Ocean.

The United States of America was founded by liberal thinkers striving for a better world. They believed in freedom of speech, freedom of (and from) religion, and the idea that every citizen deserved the same rights and freedoms as the elite.

That's a far, far cry from the religious dogmatism and repression that is represented by the Bush regime and their allies on the religious right.

Nobody who claims to be real American, who knows what the United States was meant to stand for, can possibly support either the Christian fundamentalists or the Republican Party in its current state.

well put.. Bravo. Sadly , there are many today that are resistant to being educated....informed...and fully aware. Of not only the past and the true intentions of the "founding dads".....but the real present as it exists now. (and the disconnect between the original ideas/concepts and today's interpretations of same. )

 

[TenPenny]

Rev, the US Declaration of Independance which was adopted in Congress on July 4th 1776 had the following statement:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Reference to God is as clear as day.

It is? I don't see "God" in there anywhere. Could you re type it? I really want to see the reference to God. Maybe you messed up when you typed it?

 

[no1important]

RE: Judge Has No Business

The US Supreme court could of settled this a couple years back but chickened out by saying he did not have custody of his kid.

Maybe they knew they would of had to throw the pledge out, so they came up with that piss poor reason not to hear it, but alas, this time they will have to deal with it.

 

[Scape]

Katrina Shakes Faith in U.S. Around the World

I think the worry about the pledge in schools is minor in comparison to how much faith the US has pissed away. The faith in the US, and the UK, that translates directly into the unquestioning support for the State of Israel has made all questions of faith so out of context with reality now that it can only be seen as a contorted to the point of evil. At one point god was on the side of the US vs the godless commies, now they stand ostracized vs religious fanatics. America has lost it's soul and stands for nothing but greed and must find it before they find out you can't eat money. At one point in time the discussion of god and country would be important but in a time of war it can only be seen as a desperate attempt to change the subject.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Judge Has No Business

It might be an attempt to change the subject, Scape, but it points to the very base of the problem.

The people who run around calling others unAmerican or anti-American for daring to question the actions of the Bush regime are themselves acting against what the US is supposed to stand for. That arrogance, based on lies, can only be successful if the American people remain ignorant of what the men who started their country said and did.

You won't see a lot of the corporate media quoting the founding fathers. You won't see them discussing the fact that the founding fathers were liberals. There might be a PBS special on it sometimes, but PBS itself is ridiculed by the right.

In the late 1700's, only someplace between 7% and 10% of Americans went to church. Deism was a huge movement among the educated and uneducated alike. Science was considered, at least by most who supported democracy, to hold the answers to much of mankind's problems.

We now have the radical Christian right running things. They are anti-science, religiously bigoted, care nothing for equality, and see democracy as something that must be controlled to meet their own devious ends. Telling the truth about the words and intentions of their founding fathers undermines their ability to do so.

 

[Vitamin C]

Re: RE: Judge Has No Business

The people who run around calling others unAmerican or anti-American

They are anti-science, religiously bigoted, care nothing for equality, and see democracy as something that must be controlled to meet their own devious ends.

I mostly agree with your ideas.....but you can't really complain about right-wing people calling you names like anti-american when you call them anti-science, bigots, etc.....even if some of them are

half of them are totally unaware of the issues you discuss here, and when they see you call them names, then they are gonna call you names.....that's how it works

 

[Reverend Blair]

Actually, they are the ones who start with "anti-American" label the second you question anything that their leaders say or do. They've been doing at least since Reagan was in office. If they don't like being called those things, then shouldn't act like that. If they want to defend themselves they should learn the facts.

 

[PoisonPete2]

it is disgusting to see state funded schools brainwashing young children with religion and their parents helpless to come to their aid. The founding fathers would deplore this so called Pledge of Alliegence.

 

[no1important]

RE: Judge Has No Business

They would deplore it, and like I said before the US Supreme court was too chicken shit to deal with this two years ago. I think I know why, they knew they would have to side with the father and they did not want to, so because he did not have custody, they used that as a poor excuse not to hear the case.

Chicken sh*ts. balk balk if you ask me.

 

[Nascar_James]

http://www.cnsnews.com/cartoon/stayskal.asp

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Judge Has No Business

Have you read all those quotes from your founding fathers yet, James? You know, the ones that point to the people you follow as being charlatans and liars?

 

[Vanni Fucci]

No of course not Rev...these feckers refuse to look at any truths that contravene their myopic view of the universe...hatred and dollar signs is all that matters to these clowns...

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: RE: Judge Has No Business

Have you read all those quotes from your founding fathers yet, James? You know, the ones that point to the people you follow as being charlatans and liars?

Yup. Have indeed read them. Have you read about the key source used for writing the US Constitution being the bible?

No of course not Rev...these feckers refuse to look at any truths that contravene their myopic view of the universe...hatred and dollar signs is all that matters to these clowns...

Not so. Our Nation was founded on the recognition of God. Proof is all around us, US Constitution, Declaration of Independance, Pledge of Allegiance...