Is Canada the most Corrupt Country on earth per capita?

[iamcanadian]

This has been kicked around in some of the threads here and I want to consolidate as many peoples views on this as is possible.

I will start things off by transfering some of the posts left elsewhere here on this subject and see what the pros and cons are on this statement:

Can you prove corruption within the gun registry, or are you tossing out epithets unthinkingly?

I believe I can give it a good old college try... lets how it works and see:

Politicians responding to some perceived need or lobby group vote to accept a recommendation from some senior bureaucrat that suggests creating a gun registry and asking for approval of funding for it.

The budget is set and go ahead given.

Because the nature of processing the registration of guns involves both personally identifiable information and police record searches on individuals, the actual physical work done and associated with the expenditure of the public funds had to be kept separate and in cases secret, because we are dealing under the aura of public safety and secrity and sensitive invasion of privacy issues.

When the auditor comes around to verify proper spending practices on this budget, the response to to the Auditor was "we can't show you the records that back up the expenses we incured because it discloses sensitive private/policing information, exempt from the auditors office review". The Auditor says ok, the law agrees with you and I just have to take your word for it that the money was properly spent.

The senior administrators then spend the initial budget and go and ask for more money since they are not finished. The reports go in asking for more money and the politicians ask "what did you do with the money we gave you and why was it not enough". The reply, we can't tell you because this would divulge sensitive personal/policing informaton". Ok is received for more money.

This then sets off the basis for the taking of foot with every inch and just as you end up with 10,000 rabbits in one year when starting with just 2 of them screwing around at first, we reach $2.0 Billion dollars soon enough.

With that number, it becomes obvious that something is very wrong. As more people become cogniscent of the effort required in using and applying computers to things the scam cannot be denied by a reasoning process.

 

[iamcanadian]

Pray tell me where I am wrong in the scenario.

... you end up with 10,000 rabbits in one year when starting with just 2 of them screwing around at first.

This quote is a well known accepted fact but the 10,000 may not always be bang on because some rabbits screw around more than others. But so do non-elected employed public administrators with life-long public jobs and opportunity to screw around with public spending.

 

[iamcanadian]

And look at CPP. Canada pension is the shitiest in the industrialized countries. Old people can live on dog food with it.

They say its under funded, yet the same people who paid CPP paid EI at the same time and that has $60 Billion surplus. But the non-elected administrators stole all that money so they can't transfer every penny to the CPP and double or tripple our old age pension so that it at least comes close to the cost of living here, like like ever other place where people retire with dignity on their governments Pension Plans.

Here we are served by a bunch of Crooked Public Administrators and all we do is complain about politicians who have no power over them.

 

[Alberta'sfinest]

RE: Is Canada the most Co

It's likely that under the guise of the gun registry they diverted that 2 billion to our armed forces. Our society is very liberal and full of a bunch of anti-war protestors who'd bitch to no end if we spent money on armed forces, especially 2 billion, while healthcare and social programs get the shaft. The fact of the matter is that we have a lot of resources and were entering a situation of limited resources worldwide. Countries look at Canada with a lot of envy, and it will become a serious security concern in the next 10 years. Right now the need isn't apparent, and the government doesn't want to alarm us to the problem that is quickly approaching. I guess what i'm saying is it's easier to just use sceavy tactics to allocate money, than it is to try and convince the masses that it's truly needed. It's likely that the issue would never be addressed if it was done publicly, and the needed amount would have been cut in half by parliament.

 

[iamcanadian]

You are quite off topic, but justifying corruption by goody two shoes integrity of people that have become corrupted by too many years weilding public power without personal responsibility and accountability is not in books going to fly. I refer you to my signature line which says quite a lot about what's happing to this country.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Is Canada the most Co

Do you have any facts to prove the charge made in the thread title, iam(not)canadian.

Are you defining corruption strictly by cash, or are you including things like torturing political prisoners, starting illegal wars for oil, spending millions in an attempt to undermine the democratic process in other countries, backing dictators who bust unions by murdering union members, etc.

In the case of Canadian corruption, are you including the Conservative Party of Canada protecting their corporate donors from fines when those donors are found in contempt of parliament? Are you including Stockwell Day's attempt to corrupt the legal system in Alberta, then requiring the Alberta taxpayers to pay for his legal defence? Are you including the money that the federal government had to spend to defend itself from Stephen Harper's lawsuit to allow unlimited third party advertising during election campaigns?

 

[Summer]

RE: Is Canada the most Co

Retired Americans can't live with dignity on Social Security, either, for the record.

 

[Karlin]

I agree with iamcanadian's premise.

Basically, everywhere a program is run, anywhere there is the opportunity, money will be 'scammed away' to certain people.

Sponsorship Program was just one where they tossed it around so freely that we found out about it. Carelessness opened that up, but they don't usually have to be so careless, it was an emergency.

Gun Registry,CPP, EI, all those areas Rev mentioned too, and in other areas :
1] military contracts - research this iam, you will see how 'materiel' we don't need is purchased while things like helicopters are falling apart.

2]Those Helicopter purchases, for military and coast gaurd etc., under Chretien and then Martin, is a scam that could be traced I bet.

3] Kyoto - watch, we will spend billioins and get nothing of any real consequence. The Carbon Trading clause is an opportunity for corruption like no other - it could grow so huge....

4] MEDICAL - holy COW... Holy Cash COW that is. There is so much corruption and scandal here I won't even start. Suffice to say we are spending a lot for very little help medically - just medicating symptoms with Patented Pills only, and leave the very helpful therapies off the table.
But that isn't as blatant as just taking/giving money away. That kind of thing is alsoa t play in medicine, with those huge federal medical services transfers.

5] Federal Transfers

Oh heck, forget the list, too long, its ALL that way.
Like I said at the top - wherever opportunity exists, they are using it to scam money into Elite's hands.

 

[iamcanadian]

The corruption in this country is mostly within the financial end of things and extends into the practices of our Civil Justice Systems. Beyond the arm of our elected representatives to police.

They don't use violence and phisical tourture; but economic tourture of individuals, as well as economic persecution, blacklisting, and character assassinations, directed colusion for economic crime against citizens and individuals abound, together with selective enforcement of white collar criminal activities, like nowhere else on the planet.

I'd swear they must have secret manuals of practice for these things which are applied with systemic surgical percision honned from many years of practice passed on for generations among the senior public servants here.

 

[iamcanadian]

Oh heck, forget the list, too long, its ALL that way.
Like I said at the top - wherever opportunity exists, they are using it to scam money into Elite's hands.

And the thing is that the so called Elite are some of the most incompetent people in the place.

What these people lack in personal and professional competences they make up by lowering their level or ethics and integrity to scam their way to possitions of power and control by systemically abusing the system.

Money buys power and power gets money to by more power with. It never ends and gets worse as time goes forward till someday Canada will become the south america of the north.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Since it wasn't answered before, Ill post it again:

Do you have any facts to prove the charge made in the thread title, iam(not)canadian.

Are you defining corruption strictly by cash, or are you including things like torturing political prisoners, starting illegal wars for oil, spending millions in an attempt to undermine the democratic process in other countries, backing dictators who bust unions by murdering union members, etc.

In the case of Canadian corruption, are you including the Conservative Party of Canada protecting their corporate donors from fines when those donors are found in contempt of parliament? Are you including Stockwell Day's attempt to corrupt the legal system in Alberta, then requiring the Alberta taxpayers to pay for his legal defence? Are you including the money that the federal government had to spend to defend itself from Stephen Harper's lawsuit to allow unlimited third party advertising during election campaigns?

 

[iamcanadian]

Re: RE: Is Canada the most Corrupt Country on earth per capi

The corruption in this country is mostly within the financial end of things and extends into the practices of our Civil Justice Systems. Beyond the arm of our elected representatives to police.

They don't use violence and phisical tourture; but economic tourture of individuals, as well as economic persecution, blacklisting, and character assassinations, directed colusion for economic crime against citizens and individuals abound, together with selective enforcement of white collar criminal activities, like nowhere else on the planet.

I'd swear they must have secret manuals of practice for these things which are applied with systemic surgical percision honned from many years of practice passed on for generations among the senior public servants here.

Rev, this was the post to answer yours.

 

[#juan]

No, Canada is not the most corrupt country by any stretch. We are sure as hell less corrupt than our neighbor to the south. We are definitely less corrupt than Mexico. I do not believe all, or even one percent of our deputy ministers are corrupt. The sponsership scandal would not have been a scandal if Chretien had kept control of it and did the paperwork. There has never been a suggestion that someone was unfairly elected, or elected when a fair count would elect someone else. All you have to do is travel a bit and you will appreciate Canada. All those bitter Albertans who are still bitter and griping over Trudeau's FEP should just get over it. It wasn't corruption it was a legal, but unpopular decision by the federal government at the time. I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't the right decision and the government should have stuck with it, seeing the crappy deal that Ralph Klein made for Alberta.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Rev, this was the post to answer yours.

:roll: :roll: :roll: Funny, it reads like an evasion because it doesn't address any of my points.

 

[iamcanadian]

No, Canada is not the most corrupt country by any stretch. We are sure as hell less corrupt than our neighbor to the south. We are definitely less corrupt than Mexico. I do not believe all, or even one percent of our deputy ministers are corrupt. The sponsership scandal would not have been a scandal if Chretien had kept control of it and did the paperwork. There has never been a suggestion that someone was unfairly elected, or elected when a fair count would elect someone else. All you have to do is travel a bit and you will appreciate Canada. All those bitter Albertans who are still bitter and griping over Trudeau's FEP should just get over it. It wasn't corruption it was a legal, but unpopular decision by the federal government at the time. I'm beginning to wonder if it wasn't the right decision and the government should have stuck with it, seeing the crappy deal that Ralph Klein made for Alberta.

You are comparing apples with oranges. I said that our politicians are among the least corrupt in the world and this includes the staff that come and go with election changes.

It's the people that never leave, regardless who gets elected. These are more corrupt here than anywhere.

In other countries the politicians call the shots and fire the ass off employees suspected of anything; in fact they look for the excuse to fire people so they can hire some friends or family.

Here it is completely the opposite and its the people with life-long public jobs that get rid of the politicians they don't like and give money and jobs to friends and family. They do it openly and blatantly to send the message to the rest and keep the elected in check in case anyone gets any ideas to clean up the real big crap going on everyday and everywhere.

I would rather have politicians firing people and hiring their friend, which can then be changed after only four years if they are no good, than the people running everything their way for a life time or more that no one can ever do anything about regardless how bad they are.

 

[Reverend Blair]

in fact they look for the excuse to fire people so they can hire some friends or family.

Nepotism is inherently corrupt.

It's the people that never leave, regardless who gets elected. These are more corrupt here than anywhere.

'

Prove it.

In other countries the politicians call the shots and fire the ass off employees suspected of anything; in fact they look for the excuse to fire people so they can hire some friends or family.

Like Bush hiring his buddy to run FEMA? Yeah, ask the people of New Orleans how well that turned out.

Here it is completely the opposite and its the people with life-long public jobs that get rid of the politicians they don't like and give money and jobs to friends and family.

Do you have any idea what you have to do to be hired by the federal government? Have you ever been interviewed by a board? How can civil servants get rid of politicians?

They do it openly and blatantly to send the message to the rest and keep the elected in check in case anyone gets any ideas to clean up the real big crap going on everyday and everywhere.

Um, no. They do not. They do not have the power and the hiring/promotion process is such that it is not easily tampered with.

I would rather have politicians firing people and hiring their friend,

So you agree with patronage positions?

 

[CutThroat]

I agree with them being one of the most corrupt.

If not the most corrupt then the most blatent about it.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Is Canada the most Co

You should take a look around the world then, Cut Throat.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=canada_home&articleID=2115416

the link is a tad cantakerous.......so here is an excerpt:



quote]Monday, Dec 12, 2005 Email this to a friend
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Canada's political parties rated among the most corrupt in global survey

OTTAWA (CP) - An international group that tracks global graft says Canadians believe political parties are the most corrupt institution in the country.
The dubious distinction was awarded to Canada by Transparency International. The Berlin-based group made the determination in its latest global corruption barometer.

Canada's standing was determined based on a public opinion poll taken in the months after Auditor General Sheila Fraser accused the Liberal government run by Jean Chretien last year of "breaking every rule in the book" with the sponsorship scandal.

The survey was taken before the Gomery inquiry heard sensational allegations of Liberal party operatives stuffing their pockets with wads of cash while others were accused of pocketing hundreds of thousands of dollars for little or no work.

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Corruption is also seen to be rife among political parties in the United States and Israel, according to Transparency International's global corruption barometer, which attempts to measure corruption internationally from the point of view of ordinary citizens.

On a scale of one to five, where one indicates "not corrupt" and five indicates "extremely corrupt," Canada's political parties scored a 3.9 - same as the U.S. Israel received a 4.5.

The level of perceived corruption in Canada's Parliament was rated slightly higher at 3.6, compared to 3.5 for the U.S. legislature.

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When it came to the impact of corruption on political life, Canada scored a 3.3, as opposed to 3.2 in the U.S.

Asked whether they expected the level of corruption to change over the next three years, 38 per cent said they believed it would increase, while 17 per cent said they thought it would decrease.

The barometer asks people about their opinions regarding which sectors of society are the most corrupt, which spheres of life are most affected, whether corruption has increased or decreased in relation to the past, and whether it is likely to be more or less prevalent in future, the organization said on its website.

Political parties were given the worst overall score and were seen as the most corrupt sector in 45 out of 69 countries this year, compared to 36 out of 62 countries last year.

"Parliaments received a similarly negative score, indicating widespread concern about the effects of corruption on political systems," the institution noted.

About 55,000 people in 69 countries were polled for the survey, which was carried out by Gallup International between May and October 2004. In Canada, the survey was conducted by Leger Marketing between June 6 and June 15, using a national sample of 1,001 respondents.





[/quote]


hey......ya mean we actually BEAT the US at something?? :wink:[

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Basically, everywhere a program is run, anywhere there is the opportunity, money will be 'scammed away' to certain people.

That is flatly untrue. Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity or incompetence. I've been involved with half a dozen major federal programs, and I've never seen an instance of scamming or even an attempt at it. There are always audit controls in place, careful rules about what are called delegated authorities (basically, who has the right to sign for what on behalf of the government), detailed rules about reporting to Parliament, elaborate guidelines on conflict of interest, outside auditors are always involved at some point, and the paper trail, if things are done by the rules, is voluminous and comprehensive. If things aren't done by the rules, there are disciplinary actions, up to and including dismissal for cause. What you're all thinking is "just the tip of the iceberg" is more likely the whole iceberg. Most public servants in my experience are honest, dutiful, dedicated, hard working people who don't deserve any of the slander and calumny commonly heaped on them.

And to answer the OP, no, Canada is nowhere near being the most corrupt country on earth, per capita or by any other measure. Note that the excerpt from the article at mytelus.com doesn't offer evidence that Canadian political parties are uniquely corrupt, only that a lot of Canadians think they are. That's not evidence.