INVASION & OCCUPATION stop calling it a war!

#juan

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jimmoyer

Sorry Jim. I have to admit that I don't know George Bush but have gotten used to an impression of the stupidity of the man that is probably distorted.

One thing I do know is that I hate the policies and the methods of this adminisration and can't understand why he was re-elected. It is easy to give a quick knee-jerk answer, which is exactly what I did.
 

Canucklehead

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Apr 6, 2005
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RE: INVASION & OCCUPATION

Whoa there Tex....

The resistance fighters are the ones who are targetting the coalition/occupying forces to free their country. Since the U.S. obliterated any semblance of civility in Iraq there have been other groups cropping up. Primarily there are ethnic radicals trying to create a new order in Iraq, these are the ones blowing up other Iraqis... and if an occupying soldier or two get in the way...well...so be it. The other group consists of foreigners with a gripe against the U.S. for whatever reason. This group could care less who they blow up so long as someone gets it and their 'message' is delivered to the US and the world.

As for people blowing themselves up, and I am thinking of the Palestinians more than anything, they have few weapons at their disposal and are using what they have too further their cause. Desperate times and all. Whether you, I or the next 'westerner' like or agree with their methods or cause is entirely irrelevant.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: INVASION & OCCUPATION

Reverend Blair said:
They wander in sometimes, Ocean. The fancy themselves to be bull riders, but I doubt they've gotten closer to a real bull than the cab of an air conditioned truck in the rodeo grounds.

Rinestone Cowboys??? -with an attitude :wink:
 

PoisonPete2

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Apr 9, 2005
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Re: RE: INVASION & OCCUPATION stop calling it a war!

jimmoyer said:
This kind of hubris puffs itself up based on the fact that most press conferences are stupid and do have stupid questions, but there is the matter of having to answer stupid questions ---- it's a part of democracy.

Answer - your attitude suggests that perhaps 'freedom of the press' is one Freedom the American people could certainly do without. The propaganda the White House churns out should be enough to satisfy the idle curiousity of the people right?

I watched the old documentary of the Viet Nam conflict by Michael McClean (?) last night and it is really chilling, the comparisons (military strategy, administrative mindset, moral corruption) between Viet Nam and Iraq. You guys never learned a thing from Viet Nam. You cannot win the hearts and minds of an occupied People, and you will never again hold another nation without great loss, both in human life and respect in the world.
 

Ocean Breeze

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moghrabi said:
Ocean Breeze said:
We have a President who has had the least amount of press conferences in the history of America.

ever wonder why????

No wonder. He doesn't know how to read properly, or speak in public. He is an illiterate person.

digressing for a moment........but one has to wonder how he passed his law degree...........as of all the professions available.......the legal one demands excellent oratory skills...

Hmmm...... :idea:
 

Hard-Luck Henry

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Ocean Breeze said:
digressing for a moment........but one has to wonder how he passed his law degree...........as of all the professions available.......the legal one demands excellent oratory skills...

I think he read history, not law, OB. The following goes some way to answering your question, though:

The president might ask himself, "Wait a minute. How did I get into Yale?"

George W. Bush is all for diversity, he explained last week, but he doesn't care for the way they do it at the University of Michigan. The Administration has asked the Supreme Court to rule the Michigan system unconstitutional because of the scoring method it uses for rating applicants.

"At the undergraduate level," said Bush, "African-American students and some Hispanic students and Native American students receive 20 points out of a maximum of 150, not because of any academic achievement or life experience, but solely because they are African American, Hispanic or Native American."

If our President had the slightest sense of irony, he might have paused to ask himself, "Wait a minute. How did I get into Yale?" It wasn't because of any academic achievement: his high school record was ordinary. It wasn't because of his life experience--prosperous family, fancy prep school--which was all too familiar at Yale. It wasn't his SAT scores: 566 verbal and 640 math.

They may not have had an explicit point system at Yale in 1964, but Bush clearly got in because of affirmative action. Affirmative action for the son and grandson of alumni. Affirmative action for a member of a politically influential family. Affirmative action for a boy from a fancy prep school.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/01/20/timep.affirm.action.tm/
 

jimmoyer

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jimmoyer said:
This kind of hubris puffs itself up based on the fact that most press conferences are stupid and do have stupid questions, but there is the matter of having to answer stupid questions ---- it's a part of democracy.

Answer - your attitude suggests that perhaps 'freedom of the press' is one Freedom the American people could certainly do without. The propaganda the White House churns out should be enough to satisfy the idle curiousity of the people right?

--------------------------------PoisonPete2----------------

I'm not sure how you could come to that interpretation PoisonPete2.

I don't like the fact that the President does not hold enough press conferences. I like the part of democracy that wants to hold its leaders' feet to the fire. I want to see the President sweat, not hide.

I think you saw that I liked the Parliamentary institution of Question and Answer period in that part of the post you did not quote.

I'm the one that posted the remark how this President has had the least press conferences and that got quite a response in this thread.

As well it should.

What I said about this President does not fit the usual pattern of my posts, but I've never been a great defender of the man. I've tried to show other looks at the issues however that get missed while the mob comes out looking for the nearest tree.

And PoisonPete2, we've seen the parallels discussed of Nazi Germany and Vietnam, but don't be too fast in accepting such parallels as the final word.

It isn't the final word. Just as those who are condemned to repeat history, there are those who are condemned to create new problems because they really didn't understand the history or the current events of the time.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Here is another name for it: The greatest strategic disaster in US history

http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=1&p=18178&s2=27
November 26, 2005

A few months ago, retired Army Lt. General William Odom called the war in Iraq, "the greatest strategic disaster in American history". Since then, he’s added to his criticism saying that, "The army is broken" and "we need a basic strategic change of direction" or "we’re going to pay a higher and higher price over a longer period of time."

Odom’s sober analysis of Iraq is a stark contrast to the optimistic braying of the Bush administration. Just this week, Bush said that America will prevail in Iraq and that we will persist until "victory" is achieved. Vice President Dick Cheney is equally confident of success, although he has backed off his earlier predictions that the "insurgency is in its last throes".

Odom’s recent appearance on The Jim Lehrer News hour puts him at the heart of a growing debate between rival factions of the war party. Odom is a charter member of the "reality-based" foreign policy team and a staunch opponent of the ongoing occupation. His opinion is only slightly different from that of John Murtha, the hawkish congressman who called for an immediate withdrawal of American troops from Iraq. Odom belongs to the "old school" of American militarists; along with Brent Scowcroft, Lawrence Eagleburger and Bush 1, who believe that running an empire is serious business and shouldn’t be left to ideologues and fanatics.

"People are becoming more and more aware that it is not in our interest to be (in Iraq)", Odom opined. "There’s a refusal to look back and see whose interests were really served best. It is clear that Iran’s interests were served by our invasion and Al Qaeda’s interests because it could not break in until we broke in."


But, what about training Iraqi security forces before American troop withdrawal?

Odom: "If that’s a move for earlier withdrawal I will support it…The problem is not training security forces; it is political consolidation and that is not taking place….We have a civil war now. The only thing the US withdrawal will change is the configuration of that war to some degree."

"There will be a lot of bloodshed no matter how long we stay" because of old "scores that will be settled" between Shiites and Sunnis.

Odom’s prescription for success in the Middle East requires removing American troops from Iraq:

"We can’t really manage a strategic stabilization of the region unless we get out first. We’re trying to stabilize the region, more or less by ourselves. The Europeans will not join us unless we move out."

What about civil war?

Odom: "This IS a civil war, and just like…in South Vietnam, and it won’t be stable until one side has prevailed. The longer we stay in there, the longer it will be before that is determined."

"The only prudent speed is the safety of our forces."

"The (consequences) of this war were eminently foreseeable and the longer we put it off, the bigger the price we will pay, and the longer it will take us to restore some kind of alliance effort for the larger region."

"Those people who want to 'stay the course’ now are just…feeding the forces of Al Qaida and other radical movements in the region."

What about rebuilding the Iraqi military?

Odom: "It is an illusion to think you could leave a stable military there. What you are leaving is more a set of militias, which are training under the illusion that they are the Iraqi security force. (The) police are essentially a front for the militias…"

"There’s no way we’re going to leave a regime that’s going to be pro-American. So, this notion that we stay longer to reach something that couldn’t be reached earlier is simply an unwillingness to face the realities….Staying there for three more years won’t change."

Odom still supports America’s imperial role in the region, he’s simply shrewd enough to see that the war has failed in its primary objectives and will not further US interests in the region. His strategy provides the only solution whereby the US will be able to maintain a presence in the Middle East and oversee the distribution of vital oil supplies while evacuating Iraq.

Odom: "We should not leave the region; we should get together with allies after we pull out and begin to discuss how we balance this region in the chaotic state in which we are leaving it. And that’s the way to approach it. It might involve the use of military forces."

"But, don’t let the military forces (get involved) before the strategic political decisions are made."

As the situation in Iraq continues to deteriorate, the hostility between the warring elements in the Republican Party is bound to intensify. Odom’s views are characteristic of a generation who understood the subtleties of running an empire and using all the tools available; including diplomacy, negotiation, moral authority and, at times, military power. He would prefer to see the administration employ America’s considerable powers of persuasion rather than futile saber-rattling and preemptive war. And, like his contemporaries, he fully grasps the value of discretion in executing unpopular policies.

The Bush administration stubbornly refuses to use the "soft power" of diplomacy or negotiation; preferring to rule by force and deception alone. They have flaunted international law and created the modern icons of human barbarity at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. Their merciless destruction of Falluja, which involved the use of white phosphorous and other banned weapons, has put them in a category of monsters that brings to mind the tyrants of the 20th century. Their failed occupation strategy has so alienated the Iraqi public that the only possibility of success is subjugation of the entire population. This is neither a desirable nor realistic solution.

All of these have contributed to a steady erosion of American power and prestige.

Things can be expected to worsen as the ruling party becomes more splintered and acrimonious. Eventually, Bush will have to give in to some variant of Odom’s plan. The rising probability of social upheaval at home, after five years of economic mismanagement, will push the fantasists and ideologues in the administration towards the Machiavellian strategies of realists like Odom. By then, the empire will be in serious decline; savaged by an exorbitant war, ballooning deficits, a falling greenback, rising interest rates, and the looming prospect of hyper-inflation.

Bush has paved the way for "the greatest strategic disaster in American history"; a massive economic downturn accompanied by a seismic-shift in the global power structure.

sorry.........the link does not take you to the appropriate page.... :(
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: INVASION & OCCUPATION stop calling it a war!

jimmoyer said:
What if Iraq had a federation of 3 states, a parliament, and a working democracy ?

What if ?

Big if.

And what if after 20 years of that, how would it affect the autocratic nations around it?

What IF.........a nation.....was allowed to progress at it's own rate towards the type of society it wants to be.... True change is from within. WHAT IF ......the US learned to mind its own fecking business and only responded when ASKED for assistance???

It is arrogant/stupid to assume that one can impose democracies or anything else on another. Shoving "democracy" military style down Iraqis throats has proven that and a lot more. How can the Iraqis evolve into a society that represents them as a culture, etc when it has the US in it's territory , stealing their resources , killing their inhabitants ......with no fecking intention of leaving.??

Iraq will not ever be Iraq again. What was a nation rich in culture and history has been destroyed .....by US fecking bombs and to be rebuilt with US cheap "plastic." Heck , the US just can't wait to have a string of MickeyD's in Iraq to show the world that they introduced their version of "civilization" into Iraq. ( the fast food society .....equates US civilization..
 

jimmoyer

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It is also arrogant not to do it.

What moral crimes are we committing by letting North Korea's Kim watch horror movies while his people die?

The moral dilemna of doing something in between war and doing nothing when the moderate approach seems to have no teeth, no power to change anything.

Witness the toothless approach of the EU with Iran buying North Korean nuclear know-how.

Whatever decision we make has good and bad consequences at the same time.

We can't be so sure either way.

Ever.
 

MMMike

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Re: RE: INVASION & OCCUPATION stop calling it a war!

Ocean Breeze said:
WHAT IF ......the US learned to mind its own fecking business and only responded when ASKED for assistance???

So how would you suggest we deal with the Nazis in the late '30s, or for that matter, Sudan today? Just mind our own business? At some point, protection of universal rights has to trump sovereignty.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: INVASION & OCCUPATION stop calling it a war!

MMMike said:
Ocean Breeze said:
WHAT IF ......the US learned to mind its own fecking business and only responded when ASKED for assistance???

So how would you suggest we deal with the Nazis in the late '30s, or for that matter, Sudan today? Just mind our own business? At some point, protection of universal rights has to trump sovereignty.

instead of crippling the UN the way the US is doing.......it might assist in strengthening it......and collectively. cooperatively make the UN a highly functioning organization that is equipped to deal with these issues. If military intervention is truly needed then that decision should be made at the UN with nations willing toparticipate in the military action contributing to the planning. Not all nations can do this as not all nations are equal ..

It is NOT up to the US to presume to be the moral authority for the rest of the world........
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: INVASION & OCCUPATION stop calling it a war!

jimmoyer said:
Excellent moral dilemna, MMike.

Good post.

sorry.......it is NOT a dilemna at all. It just means a serious rethink about how things are functioning now and how they could function better and who best can handle certain situations...without some bully nation undermining things every step of the way ........UNLESS it gets ITS way . and then fecks things up anyhow.

The track record of the US is rather grim........so before talking about other nations........ the US has shown how ill equipped it is to diplomatically deal with serious issues. It has also shown that it cannot even plan a fecking WAR properly. )and with all that military prowess .......so to speak :roll: maybe it is back to the drawing board for the US .....and some serous rethink.--( using the brain power that is supposed to exist in its leadership)
 

jimmoyer

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How is it best to handle Iran buy North Korean nuclear know-how ?

How is it best to deal with 1930s Nazi Germany?

How is it best to deal with 8 years of carnage in the breakup of Yugoslavia?

How is it best to sit and do nothing, or do something that has no teeth to it?

It is quite a dilemna, because whatever approach you choose has serious drawbacks.
 

Ocean Breeze

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Re: RE: INVASION & OCCUPATION stop calling it a war!

jimmoyer said:
How is it best to handle Iran buy North Korean nuclear know-how ?

How is it best to deal with 1930s Nazi Germany?

How is it best to deal with 8 years of carnage in the breakup of Yugoslavia?

How is it best to sit and do nothing, or do something that has no teeth to it?

It is quite a dilemna, because whatever approach you choose has serious drawbacks.

oh jimmy........... ya ain't talking to yourself again, are ya?? :wink: :)