Immanuel Velikovsky, scientist or twit?

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
... you sir present yourself bereft of evidence of any sort, lame or otherwise.
What about this stuff from a previous post of mine:

1. Venus in one of its close approaches supposedly left enough debris in the atmosphere to cause 40 years of darkness. There should be very clear signs of that in ice cores and the record of sedimentation. There aren't, there's no sign of such a layer anywhere in the world at the appropriate time.

2. The orbits of Venus, Earth, and Mars are all nearly circular and all nearly in the same plane, and there are tidal resonances between Earth and the Moon, and Mars and its two little moons. That means there cannot have been recent orbital disturbances on the scale Velikovsky imagines.

3. Velikovsky claims a global catastrophe killed off all the trees 3500 years ago. There are living trees, bristlecone pines, older than that. When confronted with the fact, according to Leroy Ellenberger, Velikovsky's response was "So? They survived." Typical of what Ellenberger described as Velikovsky's "cavalier attitude toward disconfirming evidence."

4. Velikovsky predicted carbohydrates will be found in Venus' atmosphere. They're not there. What's there is a lot of sulphuric acid, and if Venus had ever been close enough to Earth for their atmospheres to mix, which is required for the fall of manna while the Israelites were wandering in the desert, the most likely result would have been the sterilization of Earth's biosphere and the moon being flung off into space.

5. Ancient lunar calendars and astronomical observations clearly indicate the Moon's orbit hasn't changed significantly for at least 6000 years.

6. Venus is far too big to ever have had a visible tail like a comet.

7. The continuity of plants and animals on low-lying Pacific islands means they were not overwhelmed by a global tidal wave 3500 years ago when the sun supposedly stood still for Joshua. J.B.S. Haldane, based on data from ocean bottom sediment cores and varves in Sweden, concluded that there's absolutely no possibility of global floods in the last 10,000 years.

Care to respond specifically to any of those? This isn't the first time, or even the second time, I've challenged you on such specifics, and your response is always the same: deny, deny, deny, or ignore, ignore, ignore. You're a fraud, Beave, at least on this subject. Not deliberately, I don't believe you're a conscious fraud, you really believe this stuff, you're simply mistaken. Either that or your entire persona here is a put on. If you really were among the "cutting edge scientists" as you claim, you'd understand immediately why Velikovsky can't be right, his work is full of elementary blunders in physics, chemistry, and geology, and probably other fields too, but those are the ones I know most about so those are the ones I criticize. I've read a lot of other stuff about his use of mythology to re-order things like Egyptian dynastic successions, and they seem credible, but I'm not competent to comment on those, so I don't. It does seem to me, however, that the total absence of debris layers in ice cores and sediments consistent with his hypothesized catastrophes invalidates his argument. They should be there, they're not,so he's wrong.
 
Last edited:

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
What about this stuff from a previous post of mine:

1. Venus in one of its close approaches supposedly left enough debris in the atmosphere to cause 40 years of darkness. There should be very clear signs of that in ice cores and the record of sedimentation. There aren't, there's no sign of such a layer anywhere in the world at the appropriate time.

2. The orbits of Venus, Earth, and Mars are all nearly circular and all nearly in the same plane, and there are tidal resonances between Earth and the Moon, and Mars and its two little moons. That means there cannot have been recent orbital disturbances on the scale Velikovsky imagines.

3. Velikovsky claims a global catastrophe killed off all the trees 3500 years ago. There are living trees, bristlecone pines, older than that. When confronted with the fact, according to Leroy Ellenberger, Velikovsky's response was "So? They survived." Typical of what Ellenberger described as Velikovsky's "cavalier attitude toward disconfirming evidence."

4. Velikovsky predicted carbohydrates will be found in Venus' atmosphere. They're not there. What's there is a lot of sulphuric acid, and if Venus had ever been close enough to Earth for their atmospheres to mix, which is required for the fall of manna while the Israelites were wandering in the desert, the most likely result would have been the sterilization of Earth's biosphere and the moon being flung off into space.

5. Ancient lunar calendars and astronomical observations clearly indicate the Moon's orbit hasn't changed significantly for at least 6000 years.
On the one hand you discount the historical evidence on the other you introduce it, which is it?
6. Venus is far too big to ever have had a visible tail like a comet.
What does size have to do with it? Nothing.

7. The continuity of plants and animals on low-lying Pacific islands means they were not overwhelmed by a global tidal wave 3500 years ago when the sun supposedly stood still for Joshua. J.B.S. Haldane, based on data from ocean bottom sediment cores and varves in Sweden, concluded that there's absolutely no possibility of global floods in the last 10,000 years.
The nickle came from where?


Care to respond specifically to any of those? This isn't the first time, or even the second time, I've challenged you on such specifics, and your response is always the same: deny, deny, deny, or ignore, ignore, ignore. You're a fraud, Beave, at least on this subject. Not deliberately, I don't believe you're a conscious fraud, you really believe this stuff, you're simply mistaken. Either that or your entire persona here is a put on. If you really were among the "cutting edge scientists" as you claim, you'd understand immediately why Velikovsky can't be right, his work is full of elementary blunders in physics, chemistry, and geology, and probably other fields too, but those are the ones I know most about so those are the ones I criticize. I've read a lot of other stuff about his use of mythology to re-order things like Egyptian dynastic successions, and they seem credible, but I'm not competent to comment on those, so I don't. It does seem to me, however, that the total absence of debris layers in ice cores and sediments consistent with his hypothesized catastrophes invalidates his argument. They should be there, they're not,so he's wrong.

http://www.pnas.org/content/104/41/16016.full

Evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years ago that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions and the Younger Dryas cooling


  1. R. B. Firestonea,b,
  2. A. Westc,
  3. J. P. Kennettd,
  4. L. Beckere,
  5. T. E. Bunchf,
  6. Z. S. Revayg,
  7. P. H. Schultzh,
  8. T. Belgyag,
  9. D. J. Kennetti,
  10. J. M. Erlandsoni,
  11. O. J. Dickensonj,
  12. A. C. Goodyeark,
  13. R. S. Harrish,
  14. G. A. Howardl,
  15. J. B. Kloostermanm,
  16. P. Lechlern,
  17. P. A. Mayewskio,
  18. J. Montgomeryj,
  19. R. Poredap,
  20. T. Darrahp,
  21. S. S. Que Heeq,
  22. A. R. Smitha,
  23. A. Stichr,
  24. W. Toppings,
  25. J. H. Wittkef, and
  26. W. S. Wolbachr
+Author Affiliations

  1. aLawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, CA 94720;
  2. cGeoScience Consulting, Dewey, AZ 86327;
  3. dDepartment of Earth Sciences and
  4. eInstitute of Crustal Studies, University of California, Santa Barbara, CA 93106;
  5. fNorthern Arizona University, Flagstaff, AZ 86011;
  6. gInstitute for Isotope and Surface Chemistry, H-1525, Budapest, Hungary;
  7. hDepartment of Geological Sciences, Brown University, Providence, RI 02912;
  8. iDepartment of Anthropology and Museum of Natural and Cultural History, University of Oregon, Eugene, OR 97403;
  9. jEastern New Mexico University, Portales, NM 88130;
  10. kSouth Carolina Institute of Archaeology and Anthropology, University of South Carolina, Columbia, SC 29208;
  11. lRestoration Systems, LLC, Raleigh, NC 27604;
  12. mRozenstraat 85, 1018 NN, Amsterdam, The Netherlands;
  13. nBureau of Mines and Geology, University of Nevada, Reno, NV 89557;
  14. oClimate Change Institute, University of Maine, Orono, ME 04469;
  15. pUniversity of Rochester, Rochester, NY 14627;
  16. qDepartment of Environmental Health Sciences, University of California, Los Angeles, CA 90095;
  17. sP.O. Box 141, Irons, MI 49644; and
  18. rDepartment of Chemistry, DePaul University, Chicago, IL 60614

  1. Communicated by Steven M. Stanley, University of Hawaii at Manoa, Honolulu, HI, July 26, 2007 (received for review March 13, 2007)


Next Section
Abstract

A carbon-rich black layer, dating to ≈12.9 ka, has been previously identified at ≈50 Clovis-age sites across North America and appears contemporaneous with the abrupt onset of Younger Dryas (YD) cooling. The in situ bones of extinct Pleistocene megafauna, along with Clovis tool assemblages, occur below this black layer but not within or above it. Causes for the extinctions, YD cooling, and termination of Clovis culture have long been controversial. In this paper, we provide evidence for an extraterrestrial (ET) impact event at ≅12.9 ka, which we hypothesize caused abrupt environmental changes that contributed to YD cooling, major ecological reorganization, broad-scale extinctions, and rapid human behavioral shifts at the end of the Clovis Period. Clovis-age sites in North American are overlain by a thin, discrete layer with varying peak abundances of (i) magnetic grains with iridium, (ii) magnetic microspherules, (iii) charcoal, (iv) soot, (v) carbon spherules, (vi) glass-like carbon containing nanodiamonds, and (vii) fullerenes with ET helium, all of which are evidence for an ET impact and associated biomass burning at ≈12.9 ka. This layer also extends throughout at least 15 Carolina Bays, which are unique, elliptical depressions, oriented to the northwest acr

DB; Dexter you can protest all you want, to no avail. The evidence for a recent cataclysmic past is abundant and irrefutable it cannot be argued away by your posthumous attack on Professor Velikovsky whom you delight in employing for the express purpose of useing the volumous negatice press used more than half a century ago to discredit a rebellious advocate of reason. It did not bury the truth then and it cannot bury it now.
Why not try one of the other million or so members of the scientific community involved in the sorely needed revival of cosmology. My station is of absolutly no real value to your lack of credible argument. You remain an adherant to a non predictive disfunctional theroy and seem delighted to wallow in darkest ignorance, it cannot belong before you invoke the name of some stone god as your champion. Even in this time of your dire need it is still not to late to admit your religious conviction in this matter of an all powerfull BigBang, titter titter tsktsktsk, and be spared the sure humiliation of your person. I repeat, the recent catastrophic past and the cyclical nature of cosmic encounters in this solar system is in no great doubt whatsoever. I'm beginning to suspect your interest in this area lies in subterfuge. DB:
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Articles citing this article


    • D. J. Kennett,
    • J. P. Kennett,
    • A. West,
    • C. Mercer,
    • S. S. Q. Hee,
    • L. Bement,
    • T. E. Bunch,
    • M. Sellers,
    • and W. S. Wolbach
    Nanodiamonds in the Younger Dryas Boundary Sediment LayerScience 2009 323:94
    • J. P. Kennett
    • and A. West
    Biostratigraphic evidence supports Paleoindian population disruption at {approx}12.9 kaProc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2008 105:E110
    • M. Collard,
    • B. Buchanan,
    • and K. Edinborough
    Reply to Anderson et al., Jones, Kennett and West, Culleton, and Kennett et al.: Further evidence against the extraterrestrial impact hypothesisProc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2008 105:E112-E114
    • T. L. Jones
    California archaeological record consistent with Younger Dryas disruptive eventProc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2008 105:E109
    • B. J. Culleton
    Crude demographic proxy reveals nothing about Paleoindian populationProc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2008 105:E111
    • D. J. Kennett,
    • T. W. Stafford,
    • and J. Southon
    Standards of evidence and Paleoindian demographicsProc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2008 105:E107
    • A. D. Barnosky
    Colloquium Paper: Megafauna biomass tradeoff as a driver of Quaternary and future extinctionsProc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2008 105:11543-11548
    • C. V. Haynes
    Younger Dryas "black mats" and the Rancholabrean termination in North AmericaProc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2008 105:6520-6525
    • T. L. Jones,
    • J. F. Porcasi,
    • J. M. Erlandson,
    • H. Dallas,
    • T. A. Wake,
    • and R. Schwaderer
    From the Cover: The protracted Holocene extinction of California's flightless sea duck (Chendytes lawi) and its implications for the Pleistocene overkill hypothesisProc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA 2008 105:4105-4108

 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
As I recall, DB, the topic I started had to do with the good psychiatrist, Immanuel Velikovky and his self-destructive bent for publishing of books that told of how Venus was somehow ejected from Jupiter and how it bounced around between Earth and Mars, causing all kinds of trouble before taking it's place in orbit. The "flightless Sea Duck was not mentioned. Many people including some very eminent scientists, have a different view.

Scientists Confront Velikovsky - The Velikovsky Encyclopedia
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
As I recall, DB, the topic I started had to do with the good psychiatrist, Immanuel Velikovky and his self-destructive bent for publishing of books that told of how Venus was somehow ejected from Jupiter and how it bounced around between Earth and Mars, causing all kinds of trouble before taking it's place in orbit. The "flightless Sea Duck was not mentioned. Many people including some very eminent scientists, have a different view.

Scientists Confront Velikovsky - The Velikovsky Encyclopedia

Why upon review I am reminded you are correct. I will suspend my participation and you and Dexter can play with yourselves.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
Why upon review I am reminded you are correct. I will suspend my participation and you and Dexter can play with yourselves.

I cannot but extend to you the same privelege.......Just wash your hands when you are finished.....;-):smile:
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
 
Last edited:

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
From Leroy Ellenberger
Herewith, my letter commenting on David Morrison's review of the Sagan biographies in current SKEPTIC:
Sagan and Velikovsky
David Morrison is to be commended for being the only reviewer so far to include Velikovsky in his review of the two Sagan biographies by Keay Davidson and William Poundstone (Vol. 7, No. 4). This is because Velikovsky played a bigger role in Sagan's career as a critic of pseudoscience than UFOs and the face on Mars and because Sagan's treatment of Velikovsky holds lessons for skeptics which, unfortunately, the biographers and Morrison seem not to appreciate.
No one who knows what Velikovsky actually wrote can agree with Morrison's comment: "Sagan's critique of Worlds in Collision is brilliant popular science writing" because it is replete with invalid arguments, misrepresentations, inaccuracies, erroneous physics, and his own knife-twisting brand of condescending ridicule. Hence Sagan's analysis is hardly a proper vehicle with which "to reassure the public of science's basic fair mindedness," as Morrison states. Dr. Jerry Pournelle, a physicist, science fiction writer, and no fan of Velikovsky's, who witnessed the encounter between Sagan and Velikovsky in 1974, has written "Sagan wisecracked through the whole 'debate', never once confronting anything Velikovsky said, and mostly using his verbal skills to ridicule the old man. It was as shameful a thing as I ever saw Carl do."
Sagan failed to explain why Velikovsky is wrong in a way that would influence positively those, including many with PhDs in technical fields, who find merit at some level in Velikovsky's ideas.
Sagan's biggest technical error is in his "Appendix 3" on the cooling of Venus and it is worse than "a bit too glib and rhetorical," as Morrison remarks. What Sagan shows has nothing to do with cooling, but instead is the trivial identity that the amount of heat radiated to Venus in about an hour at 6000 K equals the amount of heat radiated from Venus in 3500 years at 79 K, as Dr. George R. Talbott explained in Kronos IV:2, 1978, and as I reported in my April 1981 letter in Physics Today, which was ignored by Sagan at the time and denied in my last corresondence with him in April 1996.
The book Velikovsky and Establishment Science (1977), edited by L.M. Greenberg and W.B. Sizemore, contains rebuttals to all of Sagan's main points against Velikovsky. These rebuttals were never answered, not by Sagan, and not even when Morrison and Donald Goldsmith, editor of Scientists Confront Velikovsky, participated in the dialogue on Velikovsky in Zetetic Scholar in 1979.
The encounter between Sagan and Velikovsky in 1974 at the AAAS session titled "Velikovsky's Challenge to Science" cannot properly be called a debate, as Morrison and others do, because their two papers were written independent of each other and Sagan left the meeting before the discussion session in order to appear on Johnny Carson.
Contrary to Morrison's account, Sagan did not organize the AAAS event. He merely endorsed the suggestion first made by Walter Orr Roberts. The organizers of record were Ivan King, Donald Goldsmith, and Owen Gingerich. In addition, all the conferences and journals that stimulated public interest in Velikovsky's ideas were in the 1970s, not the 1960s as Morrison states.
Although Velikovsky withdrew his paper from Scientists Confront Velikovsky over policy differences concerning the space allowed for rebuttals, his paper WAS published in three other sources: Pensee VII (1974), The Humanist (Nov/Dec 1977), and Kronos III:2 (1977) titled Velikovsky and Establishment Science. Interestingly, Velikovsky's paper was complete for distribution at the meeting in 1974 whereas Sagan's paper was not completed until over two years later in 1976 by which time its length had increased by 50%.
Support for Velikovsky existed in a context that most critics, especially Sagan, ignored. If a skeptic wishes to influence the beliefs of people having an interest in a topic, it is imperative that the skeptic address the issues as perceived by them. Thus, it is ironic that while many commentators applauded Sagan's slick and facile, though thoroughly flawed, critique of Velikovsky it was the rank incompetence of that effort that created a rallying point around which support for Velikovsky flourished far longer than it would have had Sagan produced an accurate and technically competent critique. In 1974 I was fully prepared to follow the arguments whereever they went, but Sagan's AAAS paper went beyond the pale of responsible criticism and made no attempt to address the issues as they were perceived by the readers of Pensee, whose interest had sparked the need for the AAAS session in the first place.
--Leroy Ellenberger, Author of "An Antidote to Velikovskian Delusions", Skeptic 3:4, 1995, < abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/velidelu.html >, St. Louis, MO, c.leroy@rocketmail.com
I am not sure what to make of this, but I have to agree, although I think there are plenty of rational arguments in refutation of Velikovsky, Sagan didn't make them; or if he did, they were so buried in irrelevance as to hide them well. And I completely agree that a valid confrontation of Velikovsky in 1974 would have ended the matter: the slick job done which ignored Velikovsky's arguments in favor of "trust me I'm a scientist and this man is mad, ho ho ho" did little to reassure those who thought Big Science incapable of thinking outside the box...
Hogan and Velikovsky
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Jupiter: 'Ah Venus, Venus! Is it possible that you will ever consider our condition even once, and yours in particular? Do you think that what humans imagine about us is true, that he among us who is old is always old, that he who is young is always young, that he who is a boy is always a boy, and thus we eternally continue as we were when first taken into heaven; and that just as paintings and portraits of ourselves on earth are always seen unchanged, so likewise here our vital complexion does not change again and again? '
GIORDANO BRUNO,

Spaccio della bestia trionfante,
First Dialogue, first Part. Translation by Arthur D. Imerti. (New Brunswick, 1964), 98.​
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
All of this was predicted by Professor Dr Velikovsky one evening in 1943 during a drinking bout, it is therefore seeming miraculous to us. Aether

Anomalous Trajectories
Jan 26, 2009


Scientists are puzzled by unexpected acceleration in several unmanned spacecraft as they flew toward the Sun.
In a previous Thunderbolts Picture of the Day article about the so-called “Pioneer anomaly”, we noted that NASA scientists have determined that both Pioneer 10 and 11 are off course by more than a hun

Anomalous Trajectories
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
On the basis of this view of astronomy Plato states that there are two conceptions of science, one that we may call noumenic and the other that we may call phenomenic. According to the first, the physical order is the manifestation of an ordering mind, a nous; he sums it up in these words (X 903 C): 'the ruler of the universe has ordered all things with a view to the excellence and preservation of the whole. ' The essential proof of this is the system of heavenly motions.
The opposite view, which was represented by Democritus's theory of atoms and celestial bodies in collision, is summed up by Plato in these terms (X 889 B):
They say that fire and water and earth and air, all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that as to the bodies that come next in order - Earth, and Sun, and Moon, and Stars - they have been created by means of these absolutely inanimate entities... After this fashion and this manner the whole heaven has been created, and all that is in heaven, as well as all animals and plants, and all the changes of seasons, having had their origin not by mind, not from any god or art, but, as I was saying, by nature and chance.​
For those who uphold this second view of science, Plato recommends (X 909 A) that they be imprisoned for five years in a House of Better Judgment to be brainwashed and that, if they do not change their minds within that period, they be put to death.

This recommendation was not lost to history, for, in fact, Giordano Bruno was subjected to such treatment for seven years and, when it was seen that in spite of the repeated tortures he would not agree even to a partial recantation, he was finally put to death. It must be kept in mind that in the famous passage (De immenso, VI, 19; Op. lat. I, 2,229) in which Bruno sums up his cosmology with the motto veritas temporis filia (a motto that was later adopted by Galileo), he refers to the mentioned passage of Aristotle about comets and takes his stand with the opponents of Aristotle. In the work entitled Spaccio della bestia trionfante (which means 'The Expulsion of the Triumphant Beast, ' that is, Platonic and Aristotelian cosmology) Bruno propounds an interpretation of ancient astromythology that is similar to that followed by Velikovsky.

The reactions to the publication of Velikovsky's books prove that those who agree with Plato are still with us. The case of the curator Gordon Atwater, who was summarily dismissed without trial from his position as Chairman of the Astronomy Department of the American Museum of Natural History and prevented from ever practising his art, indicates that the supporters of the perfection of the solar system went as far as they could in the use of repressive measures and missed only the help of the secular arm of the state.
THE VELIKOVSKY AFFAIR: CHAPTER 3: THE INCONSTANT HEAVENS
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
DB, why you keep supporting an individual who in today's world, would probably end up in a mental instittution for his blathering about Venus popping out of Jupiter and shuttling around the solar system interfering with Earth and Mars before taking it's place in orbit. In the real world planets don't just jump out of gas giants and even if somehow one did, it would be bound in it's actions by simple gravity and physics which would prevent it from doing the bizarre things that Velikovsky wanted us to believe it did.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
DB, why you keep supporting an individual who in today's world, would probably end up in a mental instittution for his blathering about Venus popping out of Jupiter and shuttling around the solar system interfering with Earth and Mars before taking it's place in orbit. In the real world planets don't just jump out of gas giants and even if somehow one did, it would be bound in it's actions by simple gravity and physics which would prevent it from doing the bizarre things that Velikovsky wanted us to believe it did.

Velikovsky was by no means the first or last to believe exactly that cataclysmic history of the solar system Jaun. You mention physics as the binding principal of the solar system yet you don't seem to realize how the actual movements and attitudes of the present configuration defys that same physics you flaunt with abandone. It only adds up if you add mass cyclicly.
Now to this place you call the "real world", I'v heard a lot about it but I can't find it anywhere on the maps. You're obviously going to continue to employ science fiction and religious beliefs in your mad rush to preserve a spun world view that you cannot ever proove exists. ;-)
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
NEW METHODS AND DISCIPLINARY BOUNDARIES Since this year marks the fifth centenary of the death of Nicolas of Cusa and the fourth centenary of the birth of Galileo, it is timely to remind the reader that the preservation of the scientific method established by them requires eternal vigilance. The same need for eternal vigilance has been underlined by an international magazine written in several languages and published in Italy, Civiltá delle Macchine, which is concerned with the problem of the role of science in contemporary society. In celebration of the fourth centenary of Galileo, this magazine came out with a special issue (May-June 1964) dedicated to the problem of scientific method. In presenting the special issue the editors stated on the first page:
Precisely today, because the progress of science seems to shine with particular brilliance, there is a tendency to neglect some obscure forces that affect scientific progress from the inside and the outside. If it is easy to identify, at least historically, the external obstacles to scientific research (the case of Galileo is just an obstreperous example of it), one often forgets that some resistances come from the inside of science itself... To the obstacles that are often set by the closedmind attitude of the humanists there is added, with more harmful consequences, the immobilism resulting from a priori and absolutist tenets held by some of the very people whose task is to cultivate science. This problem is treated with breadth and profundity of analysis in the article by Bruno de Finetti, who reminds us that scientific thought is 'unitary and in perpetual renewal, not fragmentary and final. '​
THE VELIKOVSKY AFFAIR: CHAPTER 5: ASTRONOMICAL THEORY AND HISTORICAL DATA


Velikovsky was actually a pretty good exponent of the scientific method as opposed to the turds who vilified him.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
The consequences of the theory affected almost all natural sciences and many social disciplines. Especially objectionable was the assertion that events of such magnitude took place in historical times.
Worlds in Collision describes two (last) series of cataclysmic events that occurred 34 and 27 centuries ago. Not only the Earth, but also Venus, Mars, and the Moon were involved in near encounters, when the Morning Star, then on a stretched elliptical orbit following its eruption from the giant planet Jupiter, caused turmoil among the members of the solar system before settling on its present orbit.
The description was derived from literary references in the writings of ancient peoples of the world. The archaeological, geological, and paleontological evidence for the theory was collected and presented separately in Earth in Upheaval (1955). In order to explain how certain phenomena could have taken place - how, for instance, Venus, a newcomer, could obtain a circular orbit, or the Earth turn over on its axis - the theory envisaged a charged state of the sun, planets, and comets, and extended magnetic fields permeating the solar system. This appeared even more objectionable since celestial mechanics had been solidly erected on the notion of gravitation, inertia and pressure of light as the only forces acting in the void, the celestial bodies being electrically and magnetically sterile in their inter-relations. Worlds in Collision, in its Preface, was acknowledged as heresy in fields where the names Newton and Darwin are supreme.
The only quantitative attempt to disprove one of my main theses was made by D. Menzel of Harvard College Observatory (1952) [1] . He showed (' if Velikovsky wants quantitative discussion, let us give him one'), on certain assumptions, that were I right the sun would need to hold a potential of 10 to the 19th power volts; but, he calculated that the sun, if positive, could hold only 1800 volts, and, if negative, it follows from the equation, no more than a single volt.
In 1960-61, V. A. Bailey calculated that to account for the data obtained in space probes (Pioneer V) the sun must possess a net negative charge with the potential of the order of 1019 volts [2] .
In 1953 Menzel wrote: 'Indeed, the total number of electrons that could escape the sun would be able to run a one cell flashlight for less than one minute. ' [3] My affirmation of electromagnetic interactions in the solar system became less objectionable with the discovery of the solar wind and of magnetic fields permeating the solar system.
My thesis that changes in the duration of the day had been caused in the past by electromagnetic interactions was rejected in 1950-51 [4] . In February 1960, A. Danjon, Director, Paris Observatory, reported to l'Académie des Sciences that following a strong solar flare the length of the day suddenly increased by 0.85 millisecond. Thereafter the day began to decrease by 3.7 microseconds every 24 hours [5] . He ascribed the fluctuation in the length of the day to an electromagnetic cause connected with the flare. His announcement 'created a sensation among the delegates to the General Assembly of the International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics' that year in Helsinki [5] .
THE VELIKOVSKY AFFAIR: CHAPTER 7: ADDITIONAL EXAMPLES OF CORRECT PROGNOSIS
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
Velikovsky was by no means the first or last to believe exactly that cataclysmic history of the solar system Jaun. You mention physics as the binding principal of the solar system yet you don't seem to realize how the actual movements and attitudes of the present configuration defys that same physics you flaunt with abandone. It only adds up if you add mass cyclicly.
Now to this place you call the "real world", I'v heard a lot about it but I can't find it anywhere on the maps. You're obviously going to continue to employ science fiction and religious beliefs in your mad rush to preserve a spun world view that you cannot ever proove exists. ;-)

Let me remind you that since Mr. Velikovsky's demise, man has deposited rockets and probes of all descriptions on most of the planets and a goodly number of their moons. All this was done using "real world science, calculations, navigation, and engineering.
Since there is no such word as "cyclicly" you will have to find a new dictionary as well. The real world exists, but only for those who can understand it. Have a good day....;-)
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Let me remind you that since Mr. Velikovsky's demise, man has deposited rockets and probes of all descriptions on most of the planets and a goodly number of their moons. All this was done using "real world science, calculations, navigation, and engineering.
Since there is no such word as "cyclicly" you will have to find a new dictionary as well. The real world exists, but only for those who can understand it. Have a good day....;-)

Yes that is certainly true they did, and if Newton were here he would approve of the masterful use of his principles. What makes you think I'm not haveing that new word patented?:smile:
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
THE VELIKOVSKY AFFAIR
SCIENTISM VERSUS SCIENCE
PART SIX

by Alfred de Grazia

THE SCIENTIFIC RECEPTION SYSTEM

When a scientist writes a book of his controlled experiences, a publisher ponders its audience, and a colleague weighs its value, the special order of human relations called science is in being. Their patterns of motive and behaviour emerge from and return to the larger sphere of social behaviour. They are different from, yet the same as the general social order.
Perhaps then never can it be said that 'this could only happen in science': in a scientific sense science cannot follow laws uniquely its own. Also it would be exceedingly risky to reason that, though possessed of a basis of generally understood behaviour, science receives from somewhere a unique moral code that cannot be evaluated by general moral codes.


THE CONCEPT OF RECEPTION SYSTEM There is, in every social order, a reception system. In the sub-order of scientific behaviour, the reception system consists of the criteria whereby scientists, their beliefs, and their practices are adjudged by scientists as a community to be worthy, true and effective.
The importance of a reception system in every social order is manifest. The reception system shapes the character of new recruits to the order and therefore forms the product of the order. If the term itself is new, the reception processes in themselves are well known. Whenever a scientist concerns himself with the training methods and the curriculum of his field, or with its system of publications and the criteria for evaluating work, he contributes to the building or enforcement of the order. Political parties and mass movements, religious groups, business enterprises, bureaucracies, and a host of voluntary associations have similar reception systems, and of course there is little difference between the natural and social sciences in this regard.
The principal elements of the reception system are doctrines and an operational formula with typical tactics of acceptance and rejection. Thus, 'truth according to empirical principles' constitutes a doctrine of the science reception system. It is generally believed that some criteria satisfying this goal must be extracted from those who contend for acceptance. The operational formula sets forth a number of methods by which behaviours are to be tested to determine the degree to which they fulfil the obligation of 'empirical truth. ' And a set of tactics is employed to admit or reject offerings determined to have succeeded or failed according to the formula. For instance, a journal will return a manuscript with a polite note of refusal or fit an article meeting its criteria into its publishing schedule. Ultimately the social and scientific consequences of this reception system must be discovered and analyzed in order to pass judgment upon the system and to enable an applied science of science to revise and reform doctrines, formulae, and tactics.
Such a reception system may be postulated to operate when a person, belief, or practice is projected upon the perceptive and cognitive screen of scientists with an implicit or explicit demand for acceptance. We therefore view Dr Velikovsky, his theories, and his practices as a case relevant to the study of the reception system of science.
The interpretation of the science reception system may be facilitated by fitting its activity to assumed models. Models of social behaviour in
THE VELIKOVSKY AFFAIR: CHAPTER 6: THE SCIENTIFIC RECEPTION SYSTEM

THE VELIKOVSKY AFFAIR
SCIENTISM VERSUS SCIENCE
PART SEVEN

by Immanuel Velikovsky

ADDITIONAL EXAMPLES OF CORRECT PROGNOSIS

In 1950 - as it is still largely today - it was generally accepted that the theory of uniformity must be true and that no process which is unobservable in our time could have occurred in the past. It was also believed that celestial bodies, the Earth included, travel serenely on their orbits in the void of space for countless eons. In Worlds in Collision (1950), however, I offered these theses: '( 1) there were physical upheavals of a global character in historical time; (2) these catastrophes were caused by extraterrestrial agents; and (3) these agents can be identified' (from the Preface). These claims were termed a 'most amazing example of a shattering of accepted concepts on record' (Payne-Gaposchkin).
The consequences of the theory affected almost all natural sciences and many social disciplines. Especially objectionable was the assertion that events of such magnitude took place in historical times.
Worlds in Collision describes two (last) series of cataclysmic events that occurred 34 and 27 centuries ago. Not only the Earth, but also Venus, Mars, and the Moon were involved in near encounters, when the Morning Star, then on a stretched elliptical orbit following its eruption from the giant planet Jupiter, caused turmoil among the members of the solar system before settling on its present orbit.
The description was derived from literary references in the writings of ancient peoples of the world. The archaeological, geological, and paleontological evidence for the theory was collected and presented separately in Earth in Upheaval (1955). In order to explain how certain phenomena could have taken place - how, for instance, Venus, a newcomer, could obtain a circular orbit, or the Earth turn over on its axis - the theory envisaged a charged state of the sun, planets, and comets, and extended magnetic fields permeating the solar system. This appeared even more objectionable since celestial mechanics had been solidly erected on the notion of gravitation, inertia and pressure of light as the only forces acting in the void, the celestial bodies being electrically and magnetically sterile in their inter-relations. Worlds in Collision, in its Preface, was acknowledged as heresy in fields where the names Newton and Darwin are supreme.
The only quantitative attempt to disprove one of my main theses was made by D. Menzel of Harvard College Observatory (1952) [1] . He showed (' if Velikovsky wants quantitative discussion, let us give him one'), on certain assumptions, that were I right the sun would need to hold a potential of 10 to the 19th power volts; but, he calculated that the sun, if positive, could hold only 1800 volts, and, if negative, it follows from the equation, no more than a single volt.
In 1960-61, V. A. Bailey calculated that to account for the data obtained in space probes (Pioneer V) the sun must possess a net negative charge with the potential of the order of 1019 volts [2] .
In 1953 Menzel wrote: 'Indeed, the total number of electrons that could escape the sun would be able to run a one cell flashlight for less than one minute. ' [3] My affirmation of electromagnetic interactions in the solar system became less objectionable with the discovery of the solar wind and of magnetic fields permeating the solar system.
My thesis that changes in the duration of the day had been caused in the past by electromagnetic interactions was rejected in 1950-51 [4] . In February 1960, A. Danjon, Director, Paris Observatory, reported to l'Académie des Sciences that following a strong solar flare the length of the day suddenly increased by 0.85 millisecond. Thereafter the day began to decrease by 3.7 microseconds ever
THE VELIKOVSKY AFFAIR: CHAPTER 7: ADDITIONAL EXAMPLES OF CORRECT PROGNOSIS