I think I'm a bit separatist. Sometimes I would love to see BC tell Ottawa it is fired and give it the boot. It would seem that except for holidays, the parliament buildings there are occupied by nothing but duds and culls.
If Quebec is indivisable, then by their rhetoric, so is Canada?
- Thread starter CDNBear
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s_lone: the thinking person's separatist.
s_lone my friend, I cannot express how pleased I am to see such a rational, realistic, thoughtful essay from a separatist. I read you to be saying something like "separation if necessary, but not necessarily separation." If all people with separatist sentiments were like you, I think we could do a deal that'd please everybody and wouldn't destroy the country.
s_lone my friend, I cannot express how pleased I am to see such a rational, realistic, thoughtful essay from a separatist. I read you to be saying something like "separation if necessary, but not necessarily separation." If all people with separatist sentiments were like you, I think we could do a deal that'd please everybody and wouldn't destroy the country.
"separation if necessary, but not necessarily separation."
Mon cher Dexter, this is indeed a great way of resuming my point of view. I'm very pleased to get your "approval" as your critical mind is always good at correcting and fine tuning my ideas and opinions.
Sadly enough, a good part of the soveregnist movement is still stuck in its "necessarily seperation" attitude. But I am hopeful we are close to a shift. While I probably won't vote for the provincial Liberals at the next Quebec election (which is somewhere around the corner...) I tend to think it would be good for the Liberals to stay in power for another 4 years. This would hopefully give the sovereignist movement time to adapt and renew itself to the 21st century. Right now I'm suspicious of the PQ. They are not offering many new ideas. But I will wait until the elections to pass my judgment.
Ah, I feel it's a great compliment to be called that by a Quebecer. Thank you. Man, if you and I were in charge we could fix this in an hour of conversation over a few beer. Or perhaps you'd prefer wine? Whatever, I'll buy. My preferred tipple is single malt scotch.
What you guys gotta do is elect an intelligent, educated, articulate leader. You haven't had one since René Lévesque was running things. Parizeau was an ethnic bigot, Bouchard was a dangerous demagogue, Duceppe is just ignorant and narrow minded... Maybe you should apply for the job?
In two different phases of my professional life I found myself working for the federal government for a few years. Nice jobs, good benefits, excellent pensions... But I immediately understood your pun about being "fed up." There's something badly wrong in Ottawa. I never worked there, and I refused two offers of promotion that would have moved me there. It's a beautiful city, as befits a national capitol, I've visited it many times for professional reasons and spent many happy hours in its museums and galleries (though the best one is the Museum of Civilization across the river in Quebec), but working in the federal bureaucracy there would rapidly drive me mad. Too many public servants in Ottawa are southern Ontario people who have no concept of what Canada is, how culturally diverse and rich it is, all they know is urban southern Ontario and for them Canada is a narrow strip along the northern shores of Lake Erie and Lake Ontario. Ignorant SOBs...
And that, really, I think is the root of the problem. Too many of us (Canadians I mean) have not explored our own country. We holiday in Florida, Hawaii, Europe... I've visited every province and territory but Prince Edward Island, and I'll get there one of these days.
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If Quebec ic indivisable, then by their rhetoric, so is Canada
It is very refreshing to hear soverenignist with your ideas. You make a lot of sense. I have for years said the our confederation is archaic. It was fine when Canada was formed and most of the people were not educated, but that does not work any more. Today we are educated and are aware of what is going on, we are at the stage where we know what we want and what is best for us. I would like to see all povinces with more independence. Canada could become something like the united provinces of Canada with a central gouv but that does not mix in provincial affairs. Imagine how great a country we could have with all of our diversities. It would be amazing! Each province has it special identity and together we could be the envy of the WORLD. The only way we can have a strong Canada is if we have strong provinces and that can only be achieved in a NEW CANADA.
It is very refreshing to hear soverenignist with your ideas. You make a lot of sense. I have for years said the our confederation is archaic. It was fine when Canada was formed and most of the people were not educated, but that does not work any more. Today we are educated and are aware of what is going on, we are at the stage where we know what we want and what is best for us. I would like to see all povinces with more independence. Canada could become something like the united provinces of Canada with a central gouv but that does not mix in provincial affairs. Imagine how great a country we could have with all of our diversities. It would be amazing! Each province has it special identity and together we could be the envy of the WORLD. The only way we can have a strong Canada is if we have strong provinces and that can only be achieved in a NEW CANADA.
Thanks for the compliment... But you can't imagine how bad a leader I would be!
Concerning Parizeau, Bouchard and Duceppe... You are at least twice as old as me so you have a totally different perspective of recent history. In the 1995 referendum I was only 14 years old... Didn't really grasp the complexity of what was going on. I am only barely starting to learn what has happened to Quebec in recent and not so recent history. I'm not particularly fond of Parizeau for obvious reasons. I'm not quite sure what to think of Bouchard... I wonder what in particular pushes you to call him a dangerous demagogue. As for Duceppe, he certainly is in the "seperation necessarily" crowd but I still appreciate the job he's doing... At least he's stirring the Canadian pot and I like that.I am a Quebecer after all... In the last debates during the elections, I thought he was the most honest and straightforward. I am watching him closely.
In the run up to the 1995 referendum, he lied to Quebecers about what a yes vote would mean. And long before that, he lied repeatedly and consistently about the Victoria Charter, the Meech Lake Accord, the Charlottetown Accord, he reinvented and twisted history to suit his own agenda, and Pierre Trudeau thoroughly and completely skewered him for it in essays printed in various Montreal newspapers.
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No Canada is not divisible. If it is, then I want to declare my house and my backyard a nation. I bought this land and my family votes 100% in favour of separating. Therefore the government MUST recognize our right to self-determination.
I don't believe in the legitimacy of Quebec separatism. They think that the world will rally around them, regardless if they follow the rules of the Clarity Act, yet look at the world ignoring Taiwan's concerns and their concerns are 100x worse than Quebec's. We're not building hundreds of missiles aimed at Quebec or committing genocide. Regardless of what the separatists try to say, the movement is fueled mostly by language, rather than real legitimate concerns. Most intellectual separatist arguments I've heard are rare. For that matter, I've heard great arguments from intellectuals in other provinces why their own province should separate or have more independance. Alberta is the only province that voted entirely Conservative. Not even Quebec can boast that they voted entirely Bloc, Liberal or Conservative. The only difference though is that Quebec separatists have something to fuel division, that the rest of Canada for the most part doesn't have, which is a different language. If it was just political or economic reasons, there would be less Quebec separatists than that of Alberta.
Another interesting point is that no other referendum was tried since 1995. The PQ stopped even suggesting it in their election platform up until recently. They were saying that they were waiting for 'winning conditions'. Winning conditions? If Quebec trully had the desire to separate, then why does the PQ have to wait for some kind of constitutional crisis or stupid scandal to unleash a referendum? Sounds more like opportunists trying to take advantage of temporary discontent, rather than any legitimate independance movement.
I don't believe in the legitimacy of Quebec separatism. They think that the world will rally around them, regardless if they follow the rules of the Clarity Act, yet look at the world ignoring Taiwan's concerns and their concerns are 100x worse than Quebec's. We're not building hundreds of missiles aimed at Quebec or committing genocide. Regardless of what the separatists try to say, the movement is fueled mostly by language, rather than real legitimate concerns. Most intellectual separatist arguments I've heard are rare. For that matter, I've heard great arguments from intellectuals in other provinces why their own province should separate or have more independance. Alberta is the only province that voted entirely Conservative. Not even Quebec can boast that they voted entirely Bloc, Liberal or Conservative. The only difference though is that Quebec separatists have something to fuel division, that the rest of Canada for the most part doesn't have, which is a different language. If it was just political or economic reasons, there would be less Quebec separatists than that of Alberta.
Another interesting point is that no other referendum was tried since 1995. The PQ stopped even suggesting it in their election platform up until recently. They were saying that they were waiting for 'winning conditions'. Winning conditions? If Quebec trully had the desire to separate, then why does the PQ have to wait for some kind of constitutional crisis or stupid scandal to unleash a referendum? Sounds more like opportunists trying to take advantage of temporary discontent, rather than any legitimate independance movement.
Très bien dis s_lone.
I've always thought the exact same thing as you s_lone, I believe we even had a long discussion on a topic about that exact concept, when you first joined.
Now as for my, nifty and angry reactions, I'm just sick and tired of those nasty little peons reactionists and liars on these boards, and they will continue to get the same attitude from me (Cdn_drunk and Gen-wolf-coward). Now of course, I don't think all natives are drunk, druged up criminals... Well, only the mohawks(They can't even police themselves, we have to do it for them). The Cree and Inu's are quite flurishing cultures that seem to be doing better and better as the years pass (I've visited Iqualuit this summer, was quite fun).
It's always fun, to at some point, do the same as they and play on generalisations, insults and what not. I will not stop, no matter how damaging it might be to the seperatist movement. I'm not even a member of the PQ anymore (I'm actually reconsidering, if Boisclaire can actually get rid of does old ****s from the 70's). And the fact that your generation is more involved, is quite promising as well.
J'ai toujours cru a un Québec Vert, un Québec a l'avant du progrès et non derrière. Les mesures prisent par monsieurs Charest sur l'environement, lui on merité les seuls domaines d'on je lui donne du respect. J'espère que le Québec va continuer avec Kyoto, l'éolienne et la baisse des droits de coupepour mieux gérer notre fôrest.
I've always thought the exact same thing as you s_lone, I believe we even had a long discussion on a topic about that exact concept, when you first joined.
Now as for my, nifty and angry reactions, I'm just sick and tired of those nasty little peons reactionists and liars on these boards, and they will continue to get the same attitude from me (Cdn_drunk and Gen-wolf-coward). Now of course, I don't think all natives are drunk, druged up criminals... Well, only the mohawks(They can't even police themselves, we have to do it for them). The Cree and Inu's are quite flurishing cultures that seem to be doing better and better as the years pass (I've visited Iqualuit this summer, was quite fun).
It's always fun, to at some point, do the same as they and play on generalisations, insults and what not. I will not stop, no matter how damaging it might be to the seperatist movement. I'm not even a member of the PQ anymore (I'm actually reconsidering, if Boisclaire can actually get rid of does old ****s from the 70's). And the fact that your generation is more involved, is quite promising as well.
J'ai toujours cru a un Québec Vert, un Québec a l'avant du progrès et non derrière. Les mesures prisent par monsieurs Charest sur l'environement, lui on merité les seuls domaines d'on je lui donne du respect. J'espère que le Québec va continuer avec Kyoto, l'éolienne et la baisse des droits de coupepour mieux gérer notre fôrest.
Even when you back peddle you sound like a clown. I'm not Mohawk and you bet a seperate Quebec will fall in line with the EU and suck up to them as hard as you can by continuing on with the flawed Kyoto Protocol.
When's your next Qu klux Klan meating?
That very immaturity you display in your posts and then you suck up to normal people posts, is the very reason the rest of FREE Canada thinks you are not ready to lead yourselves. Right along side my activism in my community, when I say to my people, "As long as we keep acting like this, we are not ready to lead ourselves".
Keep drinking. The dillusion of you being in the red devils might become true.... or not.
LOL, tell yourself anything you want, if it helps you sleep at night.
Your narrow minded bigotry, just won't let anything reasonable through eh?
Shows what you know, or rather don't about 1 Commando, though.
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Numure,
On est tous libre de faire et de dire ce qu'on veut. Ceci étant dit, je ne supporte pas du tout les commentaires gratuits, abusifs et sans fondements, sauf peut-être dans un contexte humoristique (j'aime bien l'humour noir). Que cela vienne du côté souverainiste ou fédéraliste, j'ai de la difficulté avec ceux qui ont la pensée figée dans de la pierre. Ceux qui refusent d'écouter l'autre côté ne font qu'alourdir un débat déjà trop lourd de préjugés et de vieilles rancunes. Mais avec un peu d'effort, j'ai réalisé que la plupart des gens ici sont ouvert au dialogues si on leur présente nos arguments de façon efficace, claire et surtout respectueuse.
Je crois avoir réussi à gagner le respect de la plupart des gens sur ce forum malgré mon ardent nationalisme Québecois. Personellement, je ne vois pas vraiment l'utilité et l'intérêt de venir sur ce forum pour lâcher des insultes à ceux qui sont en désaccord avec moi, sauf à General James Wolfe, à qui j'ai officielement déclarer la guerre... (Wolfy is just a puppy).
Sans nécéssairement être d'accord avec tout ce que CDNbear dit, je crois qu'il a un message important à passer à propos des autochtones qu'on aurait tous avantage à prendre en considération, autant du côté Canadien que Québecois.
A thought on the payments TO provinces S_Lone
without them, many provinces would do better to completely seperate from Canada, and ask for Tarriffs for Trade. Even if they did not, their populations would flock at unsustainable levels to richer provinces.
My thought would be that if you are going to do decentralization, it would be better not to weaken Ottawa..but to destroy the Provincial setup and let Municipalities run themselves with the power previously held by provinces. Provinces are as unwiedly as the national governments in may ways, and as you can see..different parts of the same province are often more different that regions of neighbouring provinces.
without them, many provinces would do better to completely seperate from Canada, and ask for Tarriffs for Trade. Even if they did not, their populations would flock at unsustainable levels to richer provinces.
My thought would be that if you are going to do decentralization, it would be better not to weaken Ottawa..but to destroy the Provincial setup and let Municipalities run themselves with the power previously held by provinces. Provinces are as unwiedly as the national governments in may ways, and as you can see..different parts of the same province are often more different that regions of neighbouring provinces.
Interesting thoughts.Are you suggesting we could let municipalities manage stuff like health and education? I simply don't know what would happen in such a decentralized system...
About payments to the provinces. I perfectly understand that some provinces need these payments. My concern is that these payments are not necessarily helping these provinces into developping their ressources and independance. A bit like parents who would pay for their child's rent forever... The child would never learn to properly manage its own ressources.
I watched a documentary a few months ago, on how in Finland I believe, their education system is runned entirely by the municipalities. The results have been quite good. A higher level of education, with half the cost. I'll try to fish it and post it for you all. Was on radio-canada.
In some ways though, development is impossible in the Canadian Framework, as they have given up their chief means of income to control of the federal province.
So the money is still being contributed, just to provincal capitals far away from the people earning the money.
I would prefer municipal power over Provincial though. The Concept of Provinces is past its prime, they are really redundant. Governance is only needed for large scale (Federal Level) and for small scale micromanagement (municipal)
So the money is still being contributed, just to provincal capitals far away from the people earning the money.
I would prefer municipal power over Provincial though. The Concept of Provinces is past its prime, they are really redundant. Governance is only needed for large scale (Federal Level) and for small scale micromanagement (municipal)
I see your point, but "large scale" and "small scale" is all very relative. Quebec seperatists would tell you that Quebec would be their ideal large scale and municipalities their small scale. They'd say that Canada is too "large scale".
As much as I would like to see some serious decentralization in Canada, as much as I realize how complicated all this would be.
Most transfers to the provinces are income transfers. So when you say "develop", if you mean, economically, there is no reason for this to be the case. In fact, these transfers are an important mechanism in smoothing the fluctuations in the Canadian economy.
Quebec is a definitely a viable country on its own if it were to separate. However, it would lose these transfers as Quebec is a net recipient of federal inflows (net of interest payments on the debt). Without free movement of its people into and out of Canada (as one would assume would happen if Quebec chose to be an independent nation), if Quebec were to separate and continue to use the loonie as it's currency, then Quebec would face a squeeze over time and unemployment would rise since Quebec is not productive enough to maintain its current standing relative to the economic structure in the rest of Canada. Ultimately, without restructuring, Quebec would have to abandon using the loonie and adopt its own currency. Considering that as an independent country Quebec would be one of the most heavily indepted in the world, and that the separatists are generally willing to regulate the economy more as opposed to less, and less regulation would be required to maintain competitiveness, you would expect to see lower standards of living in Quebec over time.