I would rather live my life as if there is a God

[jimmoyer]

Correlation is a tricky business, Summer.

I tend to think culture is more the culprit dictating
the level of crime.

Executions might be a symptom, rather than a cause.

Crime has many causes, like poverty has.

And both complex problems defy most solutions.

Simplifying these matters tends to appeal to the
ideologically partisan believers and even to those
who deny such labels but who are nevertheless
inclined to pound away on their belief.

 

[Summer]

Re: RE: I would rather live my life as if there is a God

Correlation is a tricky business, Summer.

I tend to think culture is more the culprit dictating
the level of crime.

Executions might be a symptom, rather than a cause.

Precisely my point, Jim. Note that I said that the executions "REFLECT" a bloodthirsty society, not that they "CAUSE" it.

Crime has many causes, like poverty has.

And both complex problems defy most solutions.

True, very true. My entire point was simply that a focus on killing the perpetrators rather than on solving the generative problems in the first place speaks volumes about the level of understanding that said society has regarding its own inner workings, as well as reflecting a disinclination to look beyond the simplistic and the first layer of cause and effect in what is actually a multilayered system.

Simplifying these matters tends to appeal to the
ideologically partisan believers and even to those
who deny such labels but who are nevertheless
inclined to pound away on their belief.

Bingo! Nail on the head.

 

[iamcanadian]

Re: RE: I would rather live m

Simple: Executions reflect a bloodthirsty society. In a bloodthirsty society, crime occurs at a higher rate than in a peaceful society that values human life.

I don't know what's so difficult to understand about that. It seems quite logical to me.

No, I think you end up with different types of crime. In a more peaceful society you have higher levels of white collar type crimes. Things like defrauding people get avanced because the pacifists will take getting screwed without blowing the heads off the people that screwed them, as might occur in a more hot blooded society.

In a more violent society, the crimes can be more intense, violent and of more short term durration and of isolated effect, but this does not necessarily make it more damaging to the larger segment of that society as a whole.

 

[Summer]

RE: I would rather live m

Yeah, but we were talking about capital crimes, and white collar crime doesn't fall into that category.

 

[jimmoyer]

Summer !! Apologies. I stand corrected, by
your response.

But I'd like to see what you say about iamcandian's
point. There's something he's saying beyond
the issue of white collar and capital crime.

His post is interesting.

 

[iamcanadian]

Thanks Jim,

I believe that the less violent societies tend to be more corrupt generally speaking. Its citizens get abuse more by their governments who apply the laws and practices against their public's interest more blatantly being secure that the population remains more docile in response.

 

[jimmoyer]

I'll expand your excellent observation
to say more warlike brave societies are more
free, less controlled versus the docility imposed
by a power that prevents revolution, crime, war.

This statement of mine excuses neither.

 

[Summer]

Re: RE: I would rather live m

Jim, no problem. I figured you and I had just gotten our frequencies crossed, as happens from time to time on these boards. And you're right; IAC has brought up a point that goes beyond the simple issue of violent crime...

Simple: Executions reflect a bloodthirsty society. In a bloodthirsty society, crime occurs at a higher rate than in a peaceful society that values human life.

I don't know what's so difficult to understand about that. It seems quite logical to me.

No, I think you end of with different types of crime. In a peaceful society you end up with higher levels of white collar type crimes. Things like defrauding people get avanced because the pacifists with take getting screwed without blowing the heads off the people that screwed them, as occurs in a more hot blooded societies.

Well, several thoughts on this...

First off, there's a difference between "peaceful society" and "pacifists". I honestly think that a society of committed pacifists would be likely to simply exile any member who committed a crime that indicated his/her inability to get on as a functional member of that society.

OTOH, in what I term a "peaceful" society, rehabilitation is generally an appropriate response to those who commit most crimes, while working to ameliorate or eliminate those conditions in society that have been shown to promote criminal activity in the first place. For those who show they cannot be rehabilitated, then life imprisonment without parole is a proper solution. I personally would even go so far as to approve of capital punishment in certain severe murder/mass murder cases where guilt has been proven in an ironclad manner that goes BEYOND reasonable doubt (huge numbers of witnesses coupled with a direct confession from the perpetrator's own free will, the perpetrator is unremorseful and all avenues of appeal have been exhausted, that sort of thing...), but that's just my personal view. I wouldn't condone it in other cases, however.

Mind you that in this context, I am speaking of violent crime, including homicide in its various forms and of gross theft of the "breaking and entering" sort and the like. With white collar crime, things are different.

I don't agree with your premise that people in a peaceful society will just take this sort of crime lying down. There is an entire spectrum that lies between just taking it with no reponse on one extreme and "blowing the heads off the people that screwed them" on the other. Personally I feel that things like embezzlement, the Enron-type fiascoes, bilking big chunks of society out of their retirement or life's savings, etc. merit extreme punishment that leaves the perpetrator not only imprisoned for a good number of years, but also permanently penniless. Teach 'em that crime doesn't pay, and make periodic news items of the depths to which they have sunk in future years as a reminder to others not to follow in their footsteps.

This is just me thinking out loud, you understand.

In a more violent society the crimes can be more intense, violent and of more short term and isolated effect, but not necessarily more damaging to a larger the segment of that society as a whole.

Don't make the mistake of thinking that just because a crime may have only a small number of direct victims that means it is not damaging to society on a larger scale. The feeling that murder and rape are rampant or that one is likely to suffer or die at the hands of an attacker one day has a chilling effect on society in myriad ways and tends to foster a cycle that feeds itself as society stratifies in response to this sort of paranoia.

 

[jimmoyer]

Both you Summer and iamcanadian got excellent points
and the only thing I'd like to add that colors the
talk about having a peaceful society and ending war
is the repressive response we have towards
eradicating crime and war.

So, other than repressive police state
measures, the next step is poverty eradication
to stop crime and war ?

This begets further questions:

Who decides what is fair income ?

Even after Mother Teresa feeds them fish so
they're strong enough to fish on their own, who
is to say what level of
inequality is allowable after that ?

And so we will always be displeased, dissatisfied,
wanting more, thinking we deserve more.

And now ratchet up to the next step.
Let's consider that culture is the final answer.
A culture that has the belief of personal responsibility.
A culture that says we will help you to this line.
After that, you must take personal responsibility.

 

[Summer]

Re: RE: I would rather live my life as if there is a God

Both you Summer and iamcanadian got excellent points
and the only thing I'd like to add that colors the
talk about having a peaceful society and ending war
is the repressive response we have towards
eradicating crime and war.

I'm not sure what you mean by oppressive, so I'll leave that for now.

So the next step is poverty eradication
to stop crime and war ?

This begets further questions:

Who decides what is fair income ?

Fair income IMO would be whatever allows each person to have sound, safe housing adequate to shelter themselves and their family from the environment in which they live, a healthy diet (and enough of it) that ensures they do not go hungry, and access to an education adequate to allowing themselves and their children the opportunity to build a successful future if they are willing to work at it. In addition, provision must be made for all children to be properly cared for and supervised if there are to be times when there is not a parent available to be with them (during work, etc.) and for everyone to have whatever health care is necessary to maintain health so that they can work to build that future and care for themselves and their family.

Beyond that, people are on their own as to what they do with what they have.

Even after Mother Teresa feeds them fish so
they're strong enough to fish on their own, who
is to say what level of
inequality is allowable after that ?

A certain amount of inequality is just part and parcel of living in a free society. In my idea of a perfect world, there would be equality of opportunity, but beyond that it would be largely up to the individual as to how successful to be, or even to decide for themselves what constitutes success. Safety nets are necessary to prevent anyone from falling below that which is needed to sustain a healthy life, but that net should provide the minimum, not the average.

And so we will always be displeased, dissatisfied,
wanting more, thinking we deserve more.

What's wrong with that? It's what spurs us onward.

And now ratchet up to the next step.
Let's consider that culture is the final answer.
A culture that has the belief of personal responsibility.
A culture that says we will help you to this line.
After that, you must take personal responsibility.

Agreed.

 

[masterj]

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out
there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.

Ah, pascal's wager!

Problems...

1. How do you know which God to believe in?
2. God is not stupid. Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven?

Better:

"It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in Him."

 

[Sassylassie]

With out faith there is no hope.

 

[iamcanadian]

"It is better to live your life as if there are no Gods, and try to make the world a better place for your being in it. If there is no God, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent God, He will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in Him."

Sounds good to me.

The problems are those people that don't subscribe to this way of thinking AND have no religion too. Those people should not be allowed in controlling possitions of society and government.

 

[twotoques]

The elite love pushing religion down our throats because it controls our violence towards them. The worse the economy gets, the more religious our media will become.

The elite hope that our conscience will prevent us from stringing all the rich folks up by the eyelids and kickin' them all in the balls till they blink.

“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet”

 

[twotoques]

Re: RE: I would rather live my life as if there is a God

If there is a God, why do I have to spend two hours a day in line at a Tim Horton's? If God provides (like the bible says) why are there millions people starving to death?

Tim Horton is God?

Why do you have to spend 2 hours a day in line at Tim Horton's?

You have no life?

Why don't you just go someplace else where the lines are shorter?

 

[missile]

It isn't what you think. She just drinks a LOT of coffee

 

[twotoques]

Ah, the two hours is cumulative.

Still, doesn't that seem to be a lot of time waiting in line?

14 hours a week?
728 hours a year?

728 / 24 = 30.3 days per year. Right?

A month out of every year spent waiting in line at Tim Horton's.

Maybe there's something wrong with my math.
But, even if, I think I'd buy a thermos and bring my own.

 

[GodExists]

Sounds like non of you have meet God as your savior, and I'm so sad to hear that. People talk non-stop as if God is part of politics, but God is not up for debate. Please don't go against him if you have never encountered him... God changes lives, renews marriages, there is nothing that is impossible for him... even if that means changing all of your views. How come when a loved one of the atheist dies, they say "he has passed away" or "RIP" or "he is in a better place now"... it is because you know it exists, and don't admit it... and never want to know more until hard times come... and about 9/11, God does not owe you an explanation. His ways are beyond our reasoning, and it is because humans are big-headed and won't surrender their lives, that bad things happen. Please come to God- he payed for all your sins, and he is asking you to come spend eternity in his glory... this is the biggest and best invitation anyone will ever offer you... don't look around at the world- come to God, and he will sought your soul.

 

[talloola]

If it makes others feel good to think there is a god, so be it, but in reality the god
you believe in is really your conscience, and your method of putting limits on your
own life to keep yourself living a clean life.
I live a clean life, always have, and I control what I do and don't do from my
conscience, which guides me through this life, keeps me on the straight and narrow, and it is 'mine' and doesn't come from any god.

 

[242neeks]

Have faith

okay I clearly understand everything that has been said.... but there is a little thing called Faith...Faith in believing in the things unseen....could you imagine dying and going to hell? that scares me even saying that.....We as Christian shudnt mingle with the saved but yet we should try to get the UNSAVED to know God.....I would rather live like there is a God than to die to find out there is because remember one day we will have to give an account for this life could you imagine having to say all of the sinful deeds in front of God many of you should re check your lives im not judging im only helpin because the coming of the Lord is near and this use to scare me even saying this but it doesn't no more im not saying im perfect but my objective is to b pure....so all i say is confess your sins trust and believe but most of all have Faith....Who you think woke you up this mornin??? some of you might say oh my mother or oh my alarm clock but all in truly it was God this is God's breath we are breathing sooo i think the most we owe him is to give him our lives i mean he wakes us up daily gives us a job clothes etc atleast BELIEVE .....FAITH THE SIZE OF A MUSTARD SEED CAN MOVE MOUNTAINS...