I am amazed by the left on this board.

cyberclark

Electoral Member
Left? Right? Center? All are relative to each other! As such no more than loose labels. The whole political scale has shifted right over the past 8 years in preparation for the World Trade Organization moves.

I consider myself left of center 10 years ago I would have been considered at right wing radical. Yet, my positions haven't changed.

I still care for my friends and community who have perhaps less than I do or live more sheltered perhaps. I care to a point it hurts my pocket and, I'm pleased with that.

The stark reality of what "Right Wing" is apparent in Alberta where the party in power is driven by an ideal into a quagmire of misadventures because of no planning on one part and selling off the provincial resource for nothing to insiders.

No planning; just free wheeling spending on industrial perks while the social programs are cut so far back that every one involved is suing and winning!

If Harper gets in and is allowed to tweak the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, it will bring an end to people suing the likes of Ralph over his mistreatment of the population.

Much of the corruption and incompetence can be found at This Link and details this link


[
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
I'm no longer sure what right and left mean politically, because I find myself to have a mixture of both. My positions on same sex marriage, abortion, women's rights, welfare services, and many other things, are traditionally leftist. But at the same time I believe in the faded Victorian virtues, things like honesty, duty, loyalty, integrity, responsibility, commitment... Are those left or right? I dunno. I would hope they're both. I'm also very conservative fiscally: I'll cheerfully pay my taxes but I insist on value for money in return, and I don't believe I'm getting it, so I don't pay them cheerfully. I pay them because I have to if I want to stay out of jail, and I grumble all the way to the bank where I make the transfers from my accounts to the government's accounts. Definitely right wing on that one.

So who the Hell should I vote for? I don't like any of the major options, and the Green Party is starting to look pretty good. But that's a throwaway vote, they're not going to get any seats.

I am reminded of something my mother's father invented. When he was a wee lad, he and a friend were offended by a cranky neighbour lady, so they put their heads together and made a list of all the bad words they knew, which they would then shout at her every time they saw her. It passed into Sinister family mythology as The Little Boy's Curse. The words were (remember this was around 1910, a much more innocent time): Hell Damn Piss Fart Pee Bum Stink.

That pretty much sums up my sentiments about this election.
 

Freethinker

Electoral Member
Jan 18, 2006
315
0
16
nomore said:
Freethinker, The numbers have already been crunched:
"The C.D. Howe review supports Mr. Harper's conclusion for those who earn less than $25,000 a year. For people earning under $12,500, the recent Liberal income tax reforms will save an average of $8 a year, while the GST cut would save $64, or almost 1 per cent of average family income in that category.
....This is only taking into account the 1% drop in the GST

C.D. Howe. Right wing think tank used repeatedly by the conservatives.

Lets just do an back of the envelope calculation for $12500:

PC 4500 taxable * 16% = 720 income tax
Lib 4000 taxable * 15% = 600 income tax.
Does this seem like the $8 you report for the liberal savings?

After tax money conservative for GST savings calculation (actually lower do to EI, CPP).
$11780

Now lets assume some ridiculously low amount for food and rent, say $500 for rent and $150 for food. 650 *12 = 7800
11780 - basic food/housing = 3980 left.

If every penny other than the most minimal groceries/shelter was spent on GST items, you would save $39. If you didn't use any prescription drugs, medical services or any thing else that is GST exempt.

Please show me my errors, because by my back of the envelope calculation. At $12500 Lib program would save you $120 and the conservative $39.

Show me a reasonably scenario where you save $64 with a 1% GST cut with under $12500 income? How does one conceivable pay rent buy food and have $6400 left for GST items?

Regardless of which side of the issue you are on, it should be clear these numbers are farcical before you even do a single calculation. How does anyone conceivably spend $6400 on GST items with income under $12500. I make several times that and I didn't spend anywhere near $6400 on GST items.

Cheated numbers like this certainly don't increase my confidence in what the Conservatives are selling.
 

nomore

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2006
109
0
16
Freethinker said:
C.D. Howe. Right wing think tank used repeatedly by the conservatives.

Lets just do an back of the envelope calculation for $12500:

PC 4500 taxable * 16% = 720 income tax
Lib 4000 taxable * 15% = 600 income tax.
Does this seem like the $8 you report for the liberal savings?

After tax money conservative for GST savings calculation (actually lower do to EI, CPP).
$11780

Wow, I don't even know where to start in telling you how wrong you are. Sit and think about the calculations you have done....really really think about it, then look at the calculations done by CD Howe, and try and figure out why yours are so different. I'll try and start you off, they didn't do their calculations on the back of an envelope

Freethinker said:
Cheated numbers like this certainly don't increase my confidence in what the Conservatives are selling.

I can't stress enough, that you need to do more research.

-CBC reality check came up with similar numbers, and as we all know, the CBC is a very liberal news agency.

-"Williamson said the GST cut is a "good move for taxpayers over the long term, if it does happen." (Quote:
John Williamson, Canadian Taxpayers Federation Federal Director)

-"The analysis we have done would suggest that the GST tax cut does offer slightly more of a benefit to low-income families,"
(Quote: Dennis Howlett, National Anti-Poverty Organization Executive Director)

-"Cutting the GST fattens your wallet with every major purchase and can be implemented by merely reprogramming a cash register."
(Source: Calgary Herald)

-"But it is more fair and efficient for governments to leave money in citizens' pockets rather than take it from them and send them cheques a few months later."
(source: Ottawa Citizen)

-"This insidious tax is a daily and constant reminder of big government's hand in our wallets. With the theft and waste of hundreds of millions of dollars in the Quebec sponsorship scandal and the spending of billions on the gun registry boondoggle (to cite just two current examples of government waste and ineptness) we are told that, despite this, we are building huge annual federal tax surpluses!"
(source: Times Colonist)

-"The GST is a regressive tax in that lower-income families are forced to pay a disproportionate share of their income on every taxable item compared to more affluent families"
(source: Windsor Star)

So do you want more?
 

Freethinker

Electoral Member
Jan 18, 2006
315
0
16
nomore said:
-"The GST is a regressive tax in that lower-income families are forced to pay a disproportionate share of their income on every taxable item compared to more affluent families"
(source: Windsor Star)

So do you want more?

I want any validation of the numbers you provided, not empty rhetoric. The numbers you provided, of $12500 or lower income and a $64 dollar savings in GST,which mean $6400 spent on GST taxables, just don't make any sense. I want you to provide any kind of reasonable breakdown that provides for that level of GST spending.

Please answer the question. I say the numbers you present are borderline outright lies.

How does anyone conceivably spend $6400 on GST items with income under $12500.

If you believe the rhetoric, back it up with a number breakdown. Are you so spoonfed with right wing idealogy that you can't look at the numbers when they are staring you in the face? I know a populace that thinks for itself is the bane of right wing idealogues, but why don't you try it(thinking) anyway.
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
1,410
1
38
Toronto
Freethinker said:
Please answer the question. I say the numbers you present are borderline outright lies.

How does anyone conceivably spend $6400 on GST items with income under $12500.

If you believe the rhetoric, back it up with a number breakdown. Are you so spoonfed with right wing idealogy that you can't look at the numbers when they are staring you in the face? I know a populace that thinks for itself is the bane of right wing idealogues, but why don't you try it(thinking) anyway.

Methinks you are the one happily lapping up spoonfed ideology (from the Liberals, perhaps?). The point is, they are not his numbers!!

Did you check the sources he mentions? I can understand that you don't want to believe the CD Howe Institute or the Canadian Taxpayers federation, but the CBC, or the National Anti-Poverty Organization???? Hardly right-wingers or traditional Conservative supporters. Why don't you go to them and explain that they are wrong and you are right?
 

Freethinker

Electoral Member
Jan 18, 2006
315
0
16
Re: RE: I am amazed by the left on this board.

jimmoyer said:
Am I correct that the Liberal plan is to reduce
income tax by 1 percent and the conservative
plan is to tax less consumer spending by including
more exempt GST (goods and services tax) items ?

In short the liberal plan is income tax cut centered around 1% reduction for the bottom bracket.

The conservative plan is 1% reduction in GST rate.
 

jimmoyer

jimmoyer
Apr 3, 2005
5,101
22
38
69
Winchester Virginia
www.contactcorp.net
So the difference in these two plans of tax cuts
is how much each segment of society benefits?

Sounds to me that either way the rich stand
to benefit.

Sounds to me that neither side can gain the moral
highground on differences so small as to wonder
at the intensity of this debate.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Dex...

Well you have to vote, cause if you don't you can't come here and complain about who ended up in power! :)


I'm voting conservative, I am conservative fiscally also and I don't believe I'm getting my moneys worth from governments in general. With all the municipal taxes I pay I can't take a bus to work because the service just doesn't go that far northwest in my city but the bus runs right past my house. That pretty much sums up my frustration in one motion. I pay, but I don't get to play. Also, with the amount of money I send to governments in general, I still have to hear from the general populous that it isn't enough and people are still (supposedly) dying on the streets from lack of funds. So I fathom it will never be enough and I'm completely convinced that liberal economics and social ideas don't work, cause if they did the problems we seem to be facing would have been solved long ago. It’s kinda like a quote I read about the equalization program in Canada for the “have not” provinces..."if equalization was the answer to provincial disparity, we would have solved the problem a long time ago." Of coarse meaning...it doesn't work. If I complain about paying too much in taxes for services not rendered I'm called greedy by those that want my money (go figure). So I will be voting conservative with the mind it is the best place to start. I'm reminded day in, day out, that these conservatives aren't the old conservatives, and that puts a smile on my face because then I'm assured that the old ways or the old PCs aren't in power anymore so we could actually see change occur.

Vote conservative Dex. Perhaps you will regret it down the road, but I have made voting mistakes I had to live with. I voted for Chrétien when he first became PM. He lied and didn't do the things he said he would, and those things were the reason I voted for him. So it happens and I suspect I don't need to tell you this.

Dexter Sinister said:
My positions on same sex marriage, abortion, women's rights, welfare services, and many other things, are traditionally leftist. But at the same time I believe in the faded Victorian virtues, things like honesty, duty, loyalty, integrity, responsibility, commitment... Are those left or right? I dunno."

I would have to say those virtues aren't either left or right per say, I mean you can still be loyal and committed to the communist party... "Honesty" though, I think that is in the realm of rightist politics (even though you wouldn't guess it) but I simply feel the left in Canada is being less than honest about their intentions. As I said above, if their policies worked Canada wouldn't be facing the same stupid problems socially we seem to be facing today.

Welfare services aren't something conservatives want to cut unless cuts are required. No one wants to see people going without certain basics, abortion isn't an issue that's going to go away, but it isn't going to be seeing any major policy changes. Women’s rights...well I dunno what could happen there? I mean I thought it was a forgone conclusion that they are equal to men, I mean is anyone looking to take voting rights away from women? (I wouldn't mess with my wife’s rights, nor my mothers) SSM, well that I expect to be turned into a civil union rather than marriage....

Well that's my little rant for you. I think you should vote conservative at least as a vote to teach more leftist parties that there commitment to Canadians is faltering and less than palatable. Hold your nose, check off the conservative members box off at the voting booth, and if the conservative member wins your riding, email them...tell them your a left leaning guy and tell them what you did, and why. Tell them what you’re going to be expecting. If some other party like the Liberals win instead email that member and tell them how you voted and why, and what they can do to earn your vote back.

I hope there is a little help for you in there somewhere. :)
 

Freethinker

Electoral Member
Jan 18, 2006
315
0
16
MMMike said:
[
Did you check the sources he mentions? I can understand that you don't want to believe the CD Howe Institute or the Canadian Taxpayers federation, but the CBC, or the National Anti-Poverty Organization???? Hardly right-wingers or traditional Conservative supporters. Why don't you go to them and explain that they are wrong and you are right?

Is no one capable of doing simple math themselves? He is presenting conclusions based on these numbers, if he wants someone to buy the conclusion, then he should be able to back up the numbers they are based on.

The numbers he presented appear so bogus that regardless of your idealogical stance you should be able to recognize that and admit they are faulty. If we are resorting to cooking the numbers how can we have an honest discussion.

I make mistakes and I readily admit them. I am asking for him to either admit the numbers are bogus or give any reasonable breakdown for them. Let me ask you?

How does anyone conceivably spend $6400 on GST items with income under $12500?

Have we reached the point already in Canada like the US that we no longer have facts, just Left Facts and Right Facts? If so then it is a sad day indeed.

I was once making $12500, I think I averaged about $1000/yr on GST items. I make a multiple of that amount today and I still don't come near $6400 in GST items. This has nothing to do with spin and everything to do the simple fact that these numbers are completely out to lunch.

I haven't seen the spin of either party. I don't watch TV, so I don't get pummelled with the ads. I simply downloaded the PDFs of the platforms for each party.

If we can't have this discussion based on our own reasoning and our own calculations then I think it is pointless, if all we are capable of is trawling the media for partisan supporting quotes then there is no real discussion, just empty rhetoric.
 

nomore

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2006
109
0
16
Freethinker said:
Is no one capable of doing simple math themselves? He is presenting conclusions based on these numbers, if he wants someone to buy the conclusion, then he should be able to back up the numbers they are based on.
It is FAR from simple math, and I think that is your problem, you are greatly oversimplifying this.

The numbers are not mine to back up, however, if you want to provide me with a team of economists, proper poll data, data on canadian spending habits etc etc. then I would be happy to conduct my own research. But as it stands I don't have these numbers, nor do I have the resources to do this, and neither do you. The organisations that provided these numbers, have the resources to obtain the proper data, and have the teams of economists working on these issues.

If you have a problem with their numbers, then you should either, find the numbers to refute it, or complain to them.

Freethinker said:
The numbers he presented appear so bogus that regardless of your idealogical stance you should be able to recognize that and admit they are faulty. If we are resorting to cooking the numbers how can we have an honest discussion.

bogus because their team of economists can't do "simple math"? (sarcastic tone) :roll:

Freethinker said:
I make mistakes and I readily admit them. I am asking for him to either admit the numbers are bogus or give any reasonable breakdown for them. Let me ask you?
Admit them then...

Freethinker said:
How does anyone conceivably spend $6400 on GST items with income under $12500?
very easily, way back in the day, when I was in school, making roughly that amount (a little less actually), I spent more than $6400/year on GST items...hell my tuition almost came to that amount, not to mention the books, bus pass, supplies, even friggin toilet paper. Plus my heat/hydro. I went out with friends to restaurants and bars (gst taxable). Internet connection, laundry, clothes....god the list goes on and on.

Freethinker said:
I haven't seen the spin of either party. I don't watch TV, so I don't get pummelled with the ads. I simply downloaded the PDFs of the platforms for each party.
ah I think we found the problem, misinformed.
 

the caracal kid

the clan of the claw
Nov 28, 2005
1,947
2
38
www.kdm.ca
freethinker has it correct (even if simplified). Remember to consider that the tax was designed to accomodate for those earning less with rebates and core items being exempt.

take a look at this:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Economists leery of proposed GST reduction
Updated Thu. Dec. 1 2005 4:10 PM ET

Canadian Press

OTTAWA — Economists say a cut in the GST might be politically popular among consumers who are hit on every coffee and each doughnut. But they don't like the idea as an economic tool. They're wary of Stephen Harper's promise to cut the GST by two percentage points over the next five years.

"Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid," said Christopher Ragan, a McGill University economist who favours the Conservatives.

He said people may like it because "it's the tax people love to hate."

But pollster Bruce Anderson of Decima Research, suggest that a GST cut may not find that much support even with regular folk.

"Canadians have in the past felt somewhat more drawn to a GST cut than an income tax cut because they saw it as being more visible, and potentially more rewarding," he said.

But now that both the Liberals and Tories say tax cuts are doable "it's not so clear that they would favour the consumption (tax cut) over the income tax cut, especially if there were a vigorous debate about the economic advantages of one or the other."

Harper's plan contrasts with that of the Liberals and Paul Martin, who say cutting income taxes is the way to go.

It's a political back flip for both. The Conservatives, whose predecessors imposed the GST over political and public anger in 1991, now want to cut it. The Liberals, who in 1993 promised to eliminate the GST, now defend it.

Economists say the GST may be politically unpopular, but it's a transparent and efficient way to raise government revenue. Because it's a consumption tax, a cut in the GST rate tends to encourage spending, while an income tax cut tends to encourage saving.

Harper has said a Tory government would cut the seven-per-cent GST to five per cent. The first cut of one percentage point would come immediately, the other would arrive within five years.

"I believe it's a poor idea," said economist Mike Veal of McMaster University in Hamilton. He said most economists would choose an income tax cut.

Jim Davies, who teaches economics at the University of Western Ontario, said he would prefer income tax cuts.

"Most serious work done by economists who specialize in public finance indicates that the GST is a more efficient tax source than the income tax," he said. "If the income tax cut is designed properly it can provide similar benefit to lower-income taxpayers."

Benjamin Alarie, a University of Toronto economist, agreed that an income tax cut is the right route if the idea is to help lower-income people.

"The move to increase the personal exemption of the income tax, if the concern is to help low-income Canadians particularly, that would be a nice way to do it," Alarie said.

Robin Boadway, a Queen's University economist, said there is another way to help low-income earners, by increasing the refundable GST tax credit.

Boadway suggested the Conservatives are actually looking for way to cut government revenue and thus spending, with an eye to reducing the overall size of the federal government and bolster the provinces.

Kul Bhatia, an economist at the University of Western Ontario, said it looks like Harper was driven to cut the GST because the Liberals had already taken the income tax cuts.

Bhatia said he doesn't like tinkering with taxes at election time, especially with a tax like the GST, which was carefully tuned when it was brought in to balance income with tax credits for the poor.

There were few details available about the mechanics of the Harper tax cut.

For example, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia have a harmonized federal-provincial sales tax. It's not clear how the Tory cut would affect the provincial take.

New Brunswick Finance Minister Jeannot Volpe said he doesn't mind a cut, as long as it doesn't cost the province.

"It means the money would have to come from somewhere else," Volpe said. "All I'm saying is that if there are federal transfers for New Brunswick to balance that amount of money, as long as we have the money to deliver services in the province, that's what matters."

The GST took in almost $30 billion in the last fiscal year. Harper says the first stage of cuts would cost the federal treasury $4.5 billion.

The Conservatives say, though, that the cut would encourage people to spend more, providing extra GST revenue to make up the shortfall.

Bhatia called that claim "tenuous" and said he'd like to see what the economic models say.

A one-per-cent cut would save a buyer $250 on the purchase of a $25,000 car or about $1 on a $100 pair of shoes.

"One per cent on a car is fair amount of money," said Veall. "If you buying a chocolate bar then we're literally talking about a penny."

He said the GST makes a good target for politicians because it's in front of the taxpayer every day.

Even Finance Minister Ralph Goodale acknowledges that the GST can be an annoyance and an aggravation.

People may not study their pay stubs every week to notice an income tax cut, but the GST comes up on almost every purchase.

Harper himself used the argument in pushing his cuts:

"This will be a tax cut that you will see every time you shop, tax relief that you experience, a tax break that no politician will be able to take away without you noticing."

But Larry Marks, shopping in downtown Ottawa on Thursday, wasn't impressed.

"It's going to save what? A nickel on a pack of cigarettes?"

---------------------------------------------------------
(CTV News)

(edit: fixed side scroll)
 

nomore

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2006
109
0
16
caracal kid, I'm not debating which tax is a better tax. The debate was which would provide better savings to people.

Now I was pulled into this debate, against my better judgement, because personnaly this is a useless topic anyway, since neither tax cut is significant enough to warrent this much talk. I would much rather spend time on the issue of spending the tax we already pay, more efficiently. But IMO, freethinker had come up with several wayoff claims, that I really felt needed to be addresed.
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
1,410
1
38
Toronto
Freethinker said:
MMMike said:
[
Did you check the sources he mentions? I can understand that you don't want to believe the CD Howe Institute or the Canadian Taxpayers federation, but the CBC, or the National Anti-Poverty Organization???? Hardly right-wingers or traditional Conservative supporters. Why don't you go to them and explain that they are wrong and you are right?

Is no one capable of doing simple math themselves? He is presenting conclusions based on these numbers, if he wants someone to buy the conclusion, then he should be able to back up the numbers they are based on.

The numbers he presented appear so bogus that regardless of your idealogical stance you should be able to recognize that and admit they are faulty. If we are resorting to cooking the numbers how can we have an honest discussion.

I make mistakes and I readily admit them. I am asking for him to either admit the numbers are bogus or give any reasonable breakdown for them. Let me ask you?

How does anyone conceivably spend $6400 on GST items with income under $12500?

Have we reached the point already in Canada like the US that we no longer have facts, just Left Facts and Right Facts? If so then it is a sad day indeed.

I was once making $12500, I think I averaged about $1000/yr on GST items. I make a multiple of that amount today and I still don't come near $6400 in GST items. This has nothing to do with spin and everything to do the simple fact that these numbers are completely out to lunch.

I haven't seen the spin of either party. I don't watch TV, so I don't get pummelled with the ads. I simply downloaded the PDFs of the platforms for each party.

If we can't have this discussion based on our own reasoning and our own calculations then I think it is pointless, if all we are capable of is trawling the media for partisan supporting quotes then there is no real discussion, just empty rhetoric.

Like nomore said, I don't have access to the data that the economists have. But do you honestly believe that your 'back of the napkin' calculation is more accurate or believable than a thorough analysis by trained economists? Do you honestly believe that the CBC or the National Anti-Poverty Association are actually biased supporters of the Conservatives? Get real.

By the way, there was a study put out a short time ago that appeared to show that the lowest income earners actually spent considerably more than their income. Like, way more. How? I don't know... maybe going into debt... maybe under-reporting income. Even the study's authors couldn't quite see what was going on. I'll try to post it if I find it.