I am amazed by the left on this board.

[Calberty]

Canucklehead:

It is true:

We'll try and find you mumerous references so you can get your head around the amazing fact.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2004/jul/04071605.html

 

[Canucklehead]

RE: I am amazed by the le

I agree that what Svend did was against the law and he deserved to receive the same punishment that you or I would if we commited such acts. Unfortunately, that never happens to politicians.

But... once the courts have spoken and the sentence served , the person should be free to continue their life. I also believe that people can be regretful and (obviously)sometimes do stupid things. Hey, we are humans, it's in our blood to do stupid things. What, may I ask is so progressive about refusing to forgive? Is that not a pillar of the 'farming' community of which you speak? Or does that philosphy only apply when the person begin forgiven is a local community member?

 

[Calberty]

Here's a fair assessment:

http://www.torontosun.com/News/Columnists/Bonokoski_Mark/2005/12/06/1340180.html

 

[Jay]

To me it spells out the ideal in the NDP party; If it isn't yours to give...take it.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: I am amazed by the left on this board.

What you call regressive I think most Albertans would just call freedom.

Maybe, I just disagree and that's why I'm not an Albertan. I think Alberta is regressive when it comes to some social issues like healthcare and gay marriage. Maybe old fashioned or traditional would be a better word to you? It seems more American to me than most places in Canada.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: I am amazed by the left on this board.

[Fact #1 about ALberta. Lottery revenues exceed oil revenues for the provincial government. And lottery revenues are probably similar her for the population as in any province.
.

Revenue to the government does not an economy make. Sure the lottery money may be similar, but the economy is not driven by the lottery (the lottery isn't employing that many Albertans). It's driven largely by energy (oil and gas). If the rest of Canada doesn't have the same natural resources as Alberta, I don't see how they can replicate Alberta's economy.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: I am amazed by the left on this board.

What you call regressive I think most Albertans would just call freedom.

Here, here!!

True. What always amuses me is how the NDP dippers despise the values of the very people they once claimed to represent: farmers and workers.

Svend Robinson, a yuppy thief who steals valuable jewellry, is 'progressive? A farmer who sweats and ekes out a living through hard work is 'regressive?'

The NDP dippers are doomed to irrelevency until they embrace the values of the farmer and not a spoiled yuppy like Svend the Thief.

OK, first of all, I'm not an NDP voter. Secondly, I value some traditional values and not others just like the rest of you. Racism was traditional, that doesn't make it a good thing.

Please tell me where you got the idea that I think stealing is progressive or hard work is bad?

 

[KanBob]

Re: RE: I am amazed by the left on this board.

What you call regressive I think most Albertans would just call freedom.

Maybe, I just disagree and that's why I'm not an Albertan. I think Alberta is regressive when it comes to some social issues like healthcare and gay marriage. Maybe old fashioned or traditional would be a better word to you? It seems more American to me than most places in Canada.

Funny how just sticking with tradition suddenly makes one "regressive".

Gay marriage? Who cares really, though I do support the traditional idea (and civil unions).

What is it about Alberta healthcare that makes us regressive? We spend more on health care than any other province, trying to deliver under the repressive public model, the best health care we can. Not unlike the other provinces.

The recent trial that reduced hip and knee replacement times from some 55 weeks to 4 or 5 weeks seems pretty progressive to me. Or maybe just common sense.

As for liking Americans. You bet. I rarely run into people who diss Americans. From Alberta I've recently driven and visited Montana, Wyoming, Utah (marvellous countryside), Arizona, Nevada, Idaho, Washington, Oregon and California. Great places to visit. Fabulously friendly people. Great travelling prices.

Alberta is often referred to as Texas north. I find that a great compliment.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: I am amazed by the left on this board.

The recent trial that reduced hip and knee replacement times from some 55 weeks to 4 or 5 weeks seems pretty progressive to me. Or maybe just common sense.

Yes, taking business models and applying them to healthcare seems to have turned this around for the time being. Applause to Alberta. The question I have is...if public managed health care is so great, than why did it take 50 years for them to figure this out?

Talk about regressive....

To me progressive would be getting to a point where we get off the public system, not doing everything in your power (including trying to make it some sort of national identity) to keep on the dole.

 

[KanBob]

Re: RE: I am amazed by the left on this board.

Yes, taking business models and applying them to healthcare seems to have turned this around for the time being. Applause to Alberta. The question I have is...if public managed health care is so great, than why did it take 50 years for them to figure this out?

Talk about regressive....

I totally agree there. I think the Canada health act is evil (and it was brought in by a Conservative government!) and this "only public health care" social value we seem to have is just plain idiotic.

The system desperately needs some competition.

Interestingly, I think the Conservative wait time guarantee WILL provide that competition where the Liberal guarantee WON'T (due specifically to the differences in the guarantees). This may be worth a discussion at some point.

 

[jimmoyer]

Well health care is an issue that is quite complex
and both conservatives and liberals have very valid
points.

I wish both sides could figure out the best in
both systems of thought.

Socialism excells at telling us we deserve some benefits
but often it is capitalism that excells at paying for it.

The American system is too complex for many older
people to follow, and the Canadian system leans towards
a debt that makes jobs leave the country, jobs and enterprise that can sustain it.

Those who argue too much one way over the other
just live in the shallow end of the pool.

Let's take a dive in to the deeper waters here.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: I am amazed by the left on this board.

What you call regressive I think most Albertans would just call freedom.

Maybe, I just disagree and that's why I'm not an Albertan. I think Alberta is regressive when it comes to some social issues like healthcare and gay marriage. Maybe old fashioned or traditional would be a better word to you? It seems more American to me than most places in Canada.

Funny how just sticking with tradition suddenly makes one "regressive".

Gay marriage? Who cares really, though I do support the traditional idea (and civil unions).

What is it about Alberta healthcare that makes us regressive? We spend more on health care than any other province, trying to deliver under the repressive public model, the best health care we can. Not unlike the other provinces.

The recent trial that reduced hip and knee replacement times from some 55 weeks to 4 or 5 weeks seems pretty progressive to me. Or maybe just common sense.

As for liking Americans. You bet. I rarely run into people who diss Americans. From Alberta I've recently driven and visited Montana, Wyoming, Utah (marvellous countryside), Arizona, Nevada, Idaho, Washington, Oregon and California. Great places to visit. Fabulously friendly people. Great travelling prices.

Alberta is often referred to as Texas north. I find that a great compliment.

Man are you reading stuff into my post that isn't there. Can you please try to take what I say at face value rather than add stuff to it?

I don't dislike Americans. I live in America, so I would guess that I have more American friends than most Canadians. I didn't say Albertans like Americans more than the rest of Canada, I said Alberta IS more like them socially. Albertans are more conservative. They have that same devotion to business that I see here in America.

Sticking with traditions makes you regressive if you're sticking with worthless traditions. I'm sure you think they are worthwhile, I just don't. I don't see how gay marriage is a bad thing. I think inequality is. I think opposing gay marriage is regressive. That's just a personal opinion, nothing more.

My problem with Alberta and healthcare is that they will be the first to introduce a two tiered system. The orthopedic surgery wait time decrease was great and I hope other provinces learn from that to do the same thing within the public system. By contrast, offering private eye surgeries in Alberta didn't decrease wait times at all. Some seem to see privatization as a cure all for health care and I get that vibe from Alberta in particular. I think that's naive. I live with private healthcare. I work in healthcare in the US. I don't want to see this type of system come to Canada for various reasons I'd be happy to discuss if you're interested and say what you will, that's the type of system we'll wind up with if much privatization is allowed.

 

[I think not]

Agreed, private health care delivery isn't the Holy Grail of health care, then again neither is public health care. So what's the solution in your view tracy, I would like to hear an opinion from someone within the health care industry.

 

[KanBob]

Re: RE: I am amazed by the left on this board.

My problem with Alberta and healthcare is that they will be the first to introduce a two tiered system. The orthopedic surgery wait time decrease was great and I hope other provinces learn from that to do the same thing within the public system. By contrast, offering private eye surgeries in Alberta didn't decrease wait times at all. Some seem to see privatization as a cure all for health care and I get that vibe from Alberta in particular. I think that's naive. I live with private healthcare. I work in healthcare in the US. I don't want to see this type of system come to Canada for various reasons I'd be happy to discuss if you're interested and say what you will, that's the type of system we'll wind up with if much privatization is allowed.

Too late on that issue. Quebec is already loaded with plenty of private clinics and credit card medicine. If you don't want to wait for a hip or knee replacement in Alberta? Go to one of the Quebec private clinics (more than 10 just for this) and pay for it.

Alberta doesn't have private eye clinics. Not in the same sense. There are privately owned clinics, but they cannot solicit patients as they used to (when they didn't have waiting lists as they do now). They can only do services under contract to the health regions.

Alberta does have some private MRI clinics. Quebec has many more.

I believe the system will only be improved by competitive pressures, not by bureaucratic fiat.

 

[Calberty]

Layton went to a private facility and said he received excellent care.

 

[Cosmo]

I'm not convinced of this yet, ITN. I think the left is OK with the right so long as the right keeps an open wallet.

And a FINE job the righties do of that, Jay ... just ask my father who is waiting for cancer surgery because medical has been decimated or one of the many street people who have been booted out of institutions to make it on their own. Only open wallets I see around there are mine when I do what I can to help individuals. Yep, them open wallets are exactly why I'm a leftie. :roll: :roll:

I am, truly, more of a centrist as well ... disagree strongly with the left on some issues ... but I'm voting NDP. They have a shot here in the west and I pray they get enough votes to temper the right wing worship of big business and the almighty dollar.

I agree that left has got a bad rep due to the fringe element. Nomore said it better than I could. Not all of us are lazy, uneducated, dependant, whiney ass crybabies sitting around with our hand out. The sensibile lefties I know understand fiscal responsibility while still maintaining some sense of humanity. There is a balance, believe it or not.

I agree with Canucklehead's statement "the only way the NDP could be doomed to irrelevancy would be if one the other typical-two parties get off the butts, tell their corporate sponsers to shut up and get about bringing in respectable and sustainable social services and protecting our environment and natural resources (primary NDP planks)". I'd even change my vote then.

As for all the bullsh*t about Robinson's big crime ... it's irrelevant. If we start picking apart our politicians for illegal activities, we'd be here all day. That's been discussed in another thread. Not only are they human, they're under a microscope. Anyone of us would come out with something to criticize if we were put in that position. It's a red herring. Nice way to distract from the real issues.

So ... to bring this back to the original post ... I am amazed at everyone on this board who has such tunnel vision that they cannot (will not?) see past their own rhetoric. Thankfully, that's a very, very small number of the members. Most people here are willing to discuss and debate without resorting to tantrums!

 

[tracy]

Agreed, private health care delivery isn't the Holy Grail of health care, then again neither is public health care. So what's the solution in your view tracy, I would like to hear an opinion from someone within the health care industry.

I prefer the Canadian system with some changes. I don't see how a private-public system can really work. That's what we have here in the US. While I enjoy working here, I am not looking forward to paying for my minor surgery. It'll be over $3500 if you're interested and yes, I have insurance, it would be close to $20000 if I didn't. I can afford that because I make a good living. I would never have to even think about that in Canada. And what most Canadians and Americans seem to ignore is that people here DO get free healthcare. That's right, they're "on the dole" as much as Canadians are or worse. They can show up to the emergency room and have to be treated. If they don't pay the bill, they don't pay the bill. The hospital just has to suck it up and make its money back by charging honest people like me more for services. At least in Canada you're required to contribute to the system... I work in a neonatal intensive care unit in southern California and would guess that at least 1/4 of our babies are on medi-cal because their parents are poor or illegal. Even those with insurance have a cap at about 1 million dollars. Sounds like a lot, but we go through that in about 5 or 6 months. We usually have 3 or 4 babies on the unit at any given time who are older than that.

The UK has a more Canadian friendly type of private-public system, but it has left their public system notoriously short staffed and short of money. I've considered moving there to work for a while, but it would cut my pay by about half.

Here's what I would like in the Canadian system:

-More focus on preventative care and home care. It is cheaper to avoid hospitalizations by providing more money to home care and public health and group homes and hospice. It doesn't make money for health care businesses (which is probably why it's even less stressed in the US), but it saves health care dollars.

- Increased use of professionals other than doctors. One thing I really like about healthcare in the US that I think Canada should learn from is that they use nurse practitionners and physician assistants much more than Canada. These healthcare providers are a lot cheaper to use than docs and their patient care outcomes are as good and in many cases better. Studies comparing maternal-infant mortality and morbidity for low risk pregnant women cared for by midwives and those cared for by obstetricians show that midwives actually have better outcomes. Safer, cheaper... so why don't we use them in Canada? Nurse anesthetists deliver more than half of the anesthesia in the US with outcomes as good as anesthesiologists for appropriate cases and cost about 2/3 less. So why don't we use them (other than the fact that docs are a powerful political force)?

- Common sense approaches to staff management. The government is so focused on training more nurses and doctors, but they give almost no attention to retaining them. Speaking as a nurse who left Canada, it wasn't about the money. Canada just doesn't respect their staff once they have them. Training opportunities are few to non-existant in some hospitals. Full time jobs are not easy to come by. New grads get lousy orientations. Furthering your education is not encouraged or rewarded. Schedules are inflexible and brutal. Nurses here are shocked when I tell them our regular schedule in Canada. Doctor training also needs some updating IMO, especially when it comes to recognizing foreign doctors. We don't provide them with enough residency spots. The residents we do have are often worked to the bone and not supported enough in practice. I've worked mainly in teaching hospitals and the way some of those residents are treated, I am not surprised when they choose to leave soon after finishing their training.

-Innovation!!! Yes, do what Alberta did when they consolidated services in one place rather than having to schedule 6 or 7 appointments before you can have a procedure. I went to a walk in clinic here. I saw a PA, saw the doc, had my labs drawn and got an ultrasound all on the same day. That saves time, money and suffering. I get diagnosed quickly and that means I can be treated faster. There is nothing there that a public system can't do.

I'm sure there are many more things I'm leaving out, but those are my top suggestions.

 

[Calberty]

Maybe rthe rhetoric is by the NDP cultists who put on blinders and agree with Jack Layton who welcomes Svend the NDP Thief with open arms as an NDP candidate.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: I am amazed by the left on this board.

My problem with Alberta and healthcare is that they will be the first to introduce a two tiered system. The orthopedic surgery wait time decrease was great and I hope other provinces learn from that to do the same thing within the public system. By contrast, offering private eye surgeries in Alberta didn't decrease wait times at all. Some seem to see privatization as a cure all for health care and I get that vibe from Alberta in particular. I think that's naive. I live with private healthcare. I work in healthcare in the US. I don't want to see this type of system come to Canada for various reasons I'd be happy to discuss if you're interested and say what you will, that's the type of system we'll wind up with if much privatization is allowed.

Too late on that issue. Quebec is already loaded with plenty of private clinics and credit card medicine. If you don't want to wait for a hip or knee replacement in Alberta? Go to one of the Quebec private clinics (more than 10 just for this) and pay for it.

Alberta doesn't have private eye clinics. Not in the same sense. There are privately owned clinics, but they cannot solicit patients as they used to (when they didn't have waiting lists as they do now). They can only do services under contract to the health regions.

Alberta does have some private MRI clinics. Quebec has many more.

I believe the system will only be improved by competitive pressures, not by bureaucratic fiat.

Right, I ignored Quebec. How much has their healthcare system improved thanks to their competitive pressures? I wouldn't know because I'd never work there. The wages are pathetic and I doubt I could pass the language exam despite being pretty much fluent in French.

 

[Cosmo]

Re: RE: I am amazed by the left on this board.

Maybe rthe rhetoric is by the NDP cultists who put on blinders and agree with Jack Layton who welcomes Svend the NDP Thief with open arms as an NDP candidate.

Calberty ... not all us NDP voters are cultists. Agreed, there is a fringe element (on both sides!) that is totally whacked. But to lump us all together is like me saying that all right leaning posters are gun toting, inbred biggots. It doesn't apply.

The majority of people are thoughtful and cast their votes according to personal values. You can't fault that. You may not like the NDP. Fair enough. The Conservatives make me cringe. So what? If we all agreed, these threads would be empty.