Hugo Chavez, the Richard and Judy tyrant who has brought Marxism back from its grave
- Thread starter Blackleaf
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Bear stop sucking on the American flag for a moment will ya!
There are mechanisms under law that address the responsibilities of signatories to the "agreement", and the reason why there are these mechanisms is that the possibility the potential for dispute will (and some might say inevitably) arise. If you're prepared to suggest that Americans signed a contract knowing the structures and antecedent issues invovled....stumpage fees et al. and were simply "recovering" from what they'd regard as an unfair situation, then again, what is the point of honoring an "agreement"?
It annoys me when the rationale is given that "Well gee.... two wrongs make a right after all..." "XY & Z happened and so this occaision of the same thing should simply be ignored.."
This line of reasoning hails back to "Just LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!"
Back to the schoolyard mentality.....
There are mechanisms under law that address the responsibilities of signatories to the "agreement", and the reason why there are these mechanisms is that the possibility the potential for dispute will (and some might say inevitably) arise. If you're prepared to suggest that Americans signed a contract knowing the structures and antecedent issues invovled....stumpage fees et al. and were simply "recovering" from what they'd regard as an unfair situation, then again, what is the point of honoring an "agreement"?
It annoys me when the rationale is given that "Well gee.... two wrongs make a right after all..." "XY & Z happened and so this occaision of the same thing should simply be ignored.."
This line of reasoning hails back to "Just LOOK WHAT YOU MADE ME DO!"
Back to the schoolyard mentality.....
I'm not Mikey, but I know when someone is feeding me a line of Bull too.
And the Canadian Gov't has been feeding us just that line.
Don't get me wrong ITN. I know I more than often sound anti American, it's not that. I just feel my sovereignty slipping away more and more all the time.
ITN
I'm not familiar with the "beer issue" and although you use this " veering off the topic kind of argument yourself by introducing the "beer" issue it seems you have some difficulty with using the mechanisms in place. If there is a legitimate claim then either we permit the dispute mechanisms agreed upon by both parties to settle the issue or we admit that making an "agreement" with a nation that's prepared to lie to the world and invade a nation on the basis of lies and deceit isn't actually worth the paper it's written on.
I'm not familiar with the "beer issue" and although you use this " veering off the topic kind of argument yourself by introducing the "beer" issue it seems you have some difficulty with using the mechanisms in place. If there is a legitimate claim then either we permit the dispute mechanisms agreed upon by both parties to settle the issue or we admit that making an "agreement" with a nation that's prepared to lie to the world and invade a nation on the basis of lies and deceit isn't actually worth the paper it's written on.
If I felt sovereignty was slipping away I would be more than just upset about it.
I hear you loud and clear and maybe I can learn something from your end. As I have stated, I am not saying you are definately wrong, I am saying I have not seen solid evidence to support your claims.
NAFTA has been an issue with me for some time and I have read books that cite every claim they make and which point I go to the agreement to verify it for myself. I have also read books that offer opinions without any backup whatsoever.
I also feel my interpretation of NAFTA and arguments using the nafta act are just as valid. It's all in the wording. What "I" read in the agreement tells me that we are unable to sell 0 barrells of oil to the US.
I know you're not familiar with the beer issue, most Canadians aren't. It's contradictory to their image of a "moral and fair" society. But just ask the Brazilians about Canadians "fair trade" and see what they have to say about it.
Have a nice day MikeyDB, I'm off to buy clothes manufactured by children in the third world.
Albertabound
What is the only possible conclusion when you are made aware that someone you're invited and encouraged to trust....someone who tells you they're a "nation of laws" and hold their system of justice and pledge to honesty as the highest moral standard is caught red handed lying to everyone around them? Isn't it simply common sense to conclude that if they're prepared to lie about something as serious as killing thousands and invading nations that they're entirely as capable of lying through their teeth about anything and everything else when their actual "highest noble interest" is at stake...their money!?
Bear may be right, stumpage fees and the complex architecture of trade agreements and treaties might be disingenuous on both sides, but if the worlds greatest businessmen...the superpower of financial planet earth....aren't smart enough to negotiate something they can live with....and then turn around and demonstrate their propensity to lying and disregard for a "system of laws" what's the inducement to believe a damn thing these snakes tell anyone?
What is the only possible conclusion when you are made aware that someone you're invited and encouraged to trust....someone who tells you they're a "nation of laws" and hold their system of justice and pledge to honesty as the highest moral standard is caught red handed lying to everyone around them? Isn't it simply common sense to conclude that if they're prepared to lie about something as serious as killing thousands and invading nations that they're entirely as capable of lying through their teeth about anything and everything else when their actual "highest noble interest" is at stake...their money!?
Bear may be right, stumpage fees and the complex architecture of trade agreements and treaties might be disingenuous on both sides, but if the worlds greatest businessmen...the superpower of financial planet earth....aren't smart enough to negotiate something they can live with....and then turn around and demonstrate their propensity to lying and disregard for a "system of laws" what's the inducement to believe a damn thing these snakes tell anyone?
Ah yes the Yellow American beats a retreat when the going gets tough! Why not invade Jamacia or the Falklands...something America might be able to manage? It's the same story time and time again.... Americans are happy to claim the high moral ground everywhere where their dollars are in danger but when the higher moral ground is being held accountable for the slaughter of innocent men women and children...they wrap their tails tightly between their legs and run....
Y
I really don't care whether you believe me or not. Call BS, that's your choice. I know what I know and that's what matters to me so that's the last reply I need to make to you. Have a great day sir.
I really don't care whether you believe me or not. Call BS, that's your choice. I know what I know and that's what matters to me so that's the last reply I need to make to you. Have a great day sir.
ABSOLUTELY Albertabound!
That's why all the talk and "discussion" with an American is a waste of time. We're paying $1.10 a litre for gasoline because American petroleum companies set the price. The great Harper government....sitting at the south end of an American walking north and drawing long sucking sounds out through their friends pants... tell Canadians that the world price for oil is what's behind the price of gasoline at the pumps and yet other oil producing nations don't pay anthing near the price that Canadians or for that matter Americans are paying!
Liars and theives the whole lot of them and as long as they make America their masters instead of the people of Canada...we're stuck with placating some lying theiving arsehole from America telling us that we treat them badly because they don't like the trade agreement they signed!
Screw America....
oops to late!
That's why all the talk and "discussion" with an American is a waste of time. We're paying $1.10 a litre for gasoline because American petroleum companies set the price. The great Harper government....sitting at the south end of an American walking north and drawing long sucking sounds out through their friends pants... tell Canadians that the world price for oil is what's behind the price of gasoline at the pumps and yet other oil producing nations don't pay anthing near the price that Canadians or for that matter Americans are paying!
Liars and theives the whole lot of them and as long as they make America their masters instead of the people of Canada...we're stuck with placating some lying theiving arsehole from America telling us that we treat them badly because they don't like the trade agreement they signed!
Screw America....
oops to late!
And yes I will also agree there are many, many, many things that I "do not" agree with when its comes to American policy. Call it Anit American if you will, it is simply my
dis-agreeance with alot of American policy. American policy comes from the elite not the politicians
We are led to believe that we are "all" sovereign. We are not.
Sorry to change the topic....Oh, I guess that happened on the 5 or 6 post
Sorry to change the topic....Oh, I guess that happened on the 5 or 6 post
Albertabound
Now yer catchin on son!
When the entrepeneur the "businessman" wants a better deal....that's what rules our nations, not these airy-fairy philosophical treaties that have a shelf life of about thirty days....!
Look how quickly Bear came to defame the government when the issue of "fairness" regarding stumpage fees was brought up!
The means of creating wealth and developing security and assuring the longevity of your people through controlling the commerce of nations is what this is all about! When you can't successfully control someone like Saddam Hussein and his oil fields...well then you tell lies about him and invade his nation....When you can't cut a deal with sufficient numbers of foreign states to build and maintain a "missile defense shield" you're the first to recognize Kosovo....when you want to turn Chinese currency into something that's less desireable you pump up the Tibet crisis or the Formosa (Taiwan) crisis...or the air-quality crisis and raise the spectre of "boycotting the Olympics"....
It's all business my friend!
Now yer catchin on son!
When the entrepeneur the "businessman" wants a better deal....that's what rules our nations, not these airy-fairy philosophical treaties that have a shelf life of about thirty days....!
Look how quickly Bear came to defame the government when the issue of "fairness" regarding stumpage fees was brought up!
The means of creating wealth and developing security and assuring the longevity of your people through controlling the commerce of nations is what this is all about! When you can't successfully control someone like Saddam Hussein and his oil fields...well then you tell lies about him and invade his nation....When you can't cut a deal with sufficient numbers of foreign states to build and maintain a "missile defense shield" you're the first to recognize Kosovo....when you want to turn Chinese currency into something that's less desireable you pump up the Tibet crisis or the Formosa (Taiwan) crisis...or the air-quality crisis and raise the spectre of "boycotting the Olympics"....
It's all business my friend!
Canada violated international trade laws by continuously ignoring GATT rulings against trade restrictions on beer throughout the 1970s and 1980s.
Toro
And if they did, was there a mechanism available through which they were held accountable? And if not why not?
If businesses break laws they should be held accountable and if they're not why not?
If it's against the law to hire women and children to work in slave-wage seatshops in the United States, what makes it OK for the GAP and Guess and many other American corporations to do this in foreign nations? Perhaps because the laws of that foreign nation put the welfare of their treasuries before the welfare of their people? And that's a great message to send to the world isn't it!? "We'll permit our businesses to conduct morally reprehensible business business practices in foreign nations because we can and because although we wouldn't do that here (because if you were caught you'd go to jail!) but it's OK to do it there because those governments who appease our greed are fine and just but if they change policies that have an effect on our bottom line...well then they're Anti-American and probably communist pinko evildoers who we should probably kill!
Great form of "democracy" to export to the world!
And if they did, was there a mechanism available through which they were held accountable? And if not why not?
If businesses break laws they should be held accountable and if they're not why not?
If it's against the law to hire women and children to work in slave-wage seatshops in the United States, what makes it OK for the GAP and Guess and many other American corporations to do this in foreign nations? Perhaps because the laws of that foreign nation put the welfare of their treasuries before the welfare of their people? And that's a great message to send to the world isn't it!? "We'll permit our businesses to conduct morally reprehensible business business practices in foreign nations because we can and because although we wouldn't do that here (because if you were caught you'd go to jail!) but it's OK to do it there because those governments who appease our greed are fine and just but if they change policies that have an effect on our bottom line...well then they're Anti-American and probably communist pinko evildoers who we should probably kill!
Great form of "democracy" to export to the world!
Its not about businesses breaking the laws. It is about national governments ignoring rulings in international trade treaties that they signed to benefit their domestic industries. A trade ruling would go against Canada and Canada would slightly change the laws forcing the Americans back to GATT. This went on for decades.
To this day, there is no free trade in beer. The Americans finally reached an accommodation that still exists today as the Canadian government reached an accommodation over softwood lumber.
That is not to excuse the Americans for what they did over softwood lumber. It was a clear violation of a treaty they signed, and the American forest industry is the biggest loser industry in America. Rather, its this holier-than-thou attitudes in Canada over the issue. During the beer dispute which came to a head in the early 1990s, most of the Canadian media and Canadian political establishment framed the dispute in nationalistic terms, saying the big bad Americans were imposing themselves on Canada. Yet, Canada did the same thing to the Americans that the US is doing to Canada over softwood lumber.