How will a Conservative government be better?

[no1important]

RE: How will a Conservati

Why is it always refered to the "West" seperating when it is just a vocal few from Alberta?

Alberta just wants BC as we have two of the largest ports in Canada that supply Asian markets. Believe me, other than a few rurual areas (peace river area) seperation is a non starter.

 

[LadyC]

I'm not so sure about that, no1. There may not be as many, and they may not be as vocal, but there are separatists here in B.C. too.

 

[bluealberta]

The threat of western separation is real and would be ignored at the peril of the rest of the country. No one has answered my post about the benefits of Alberta specifically and the West generally being a part of Canada. And Rev, if you think the west will turn into a banana republic, we will at least have the satisfaction of knowing that Canada beat us there.

Western alienation is very much a force in the West. As Lady C says, we don't even need to vote because you folks in the East have already chosen our government. The only thing we get to do is at least provide some oppostion to the Liberals, at least for over thirty of the last 40 years. All the elections during this time save for one majority and Clarks minority indicate to us that Eastern Canada is basically telling us to go to hell, but please give us your money first. Eastern Canada has no idea of how things are out here, and even though the Rev says he is from Sask, he appears to have forgotten his roots. We have the Canadian Wheat Board which dictates to western farmers only how and where and for what price they can sell their products. This doesn't happen in the East. Western raw products are shipped to the east for manufacturing, and the western producers pay the freight. The finished products are sent back west, and the west pays the freight back. The NEP raped an entire province and industry. No other industry has been specifically targetted like the NEP targetted the oil business. We have a gun registry that ballooned to $2billion from $2million, but nobody knows where the money went, but hey, we got all those gopher huntin' westerners to register their 22's. This last week, every province but one has been given money by Ottawa. In the province that didn't, the health minister did his usual drive by smear, but could not stick around for a health care meeting that even the Friends of Medicare found to be interesting and balanced.

Softwod lumber in BC has been an issue for years, BSE has been an issue for two years, yet the liberal government is focussed on such pressing social issues as daycare, ssm, legalizing pot, and legalizing prostitution. The Rev says we will need a military? Would Canada then want one too? Other provinces have provincial police, so for Alberta or any other province to have them would not be reinventing the wheel.

I spent this afternoon with a professional man who was Liberal in 1993. He is ready to provide support for the separtist movement if the LIberals get re-elected this time. There are many like him in this area. Is separatism a viable option? Maybe not, but the confederation of Canada has got to be changed if the country is to survive, and for you folks east of here to marginalize the feelings may be a huge mistake. Remember, closing the barn door after the horse is gone is as useless as a liberal campaign province.

 

[no1important]

Re: RE: How will a Conservative government be better?

I'm not so sure about that, no1. There may not be as many, and they may not be as vocal, but there are separatists here in B.C. too.

Really? I would like to know where all this talk is coming from. Every once in awhile they will have a twit on the radio talking about it, but I never read about it in the papers or see it on the news. I don't know anyone talking about it, when I go election canvassing it never comes up. I think it is just more shit being started by the right.

BC is not ever going to seperate in my lifetime.

 

[LadyC]

I've heard it from regular people.

I'm not right-wing... by any means.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: How will a Conservati

It won't fly. The whole thing is based on Alberta wanting 2 or 3 votes for every person because they have oil. The fact is that we live in a democracy and trying to generate anger by being undemocratic doesn't work very well at all.

There are always be people who will grumble about separatism...just like there are people in Southern Ontario who want to separate from Canada and people in Thunder Bay who want to form their own province. It isn't widespread enough to even be considered a movement.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: How will a Conservative government be better?

You don't get it, do you, B? It doesn't matter how I or anyone else here in the west votes. The winner has been declared before our polls have closed.

I turn on the TV at 8:00 to see my new PM's face smiling back at me.

Our ballot boxes haven't even been opened yet.

You really have to stop whining about this, I mean what do you want the East to do? Should we forget the concept of standard time and the time zones? Should every westerner get 3 votes so that it is the west choosing the PM? I posted this somewhere else, but it applies here again:

Next is the whole thing about a federal elections being decided in the east even before Albertans cast their vote. You got two things against you, location and population. Nothing can change the fact that Eastern Canada is 2 hours ahead of you. We can either skew all the voting time so the polls open and close at the same time across the country or we can not release any results until every poll has closed.

As for number of seats, look at this:

Based on Canada 32,078,819 People and 308 seats
Prov. - Pop (2005) - % of Cdn - # of Seats - % Seats - % Diff
NL - 516,986 - 1.61 - 7 - 2.27 - 0.66
PE- 137,734 - 0.43 - 4 - 1.30 - 0.87
NB - 751,257 - 2.34 - 10 - 3.25 - 0.90
NS - 937,538 - 2.92 - 11 - 3.57 - 0.65
PQ - 7,568,640 - 23.59 - 75 - 24.35 - 0.76
ON - 12,449,502 - 38.81 - 106 - 34.42 - (-4.39)
MB - 1,174,645 - 3.66 - 14 - 4.55 - 0.88
SK - 995,280 - 3.10 - 14 - 4.55 - 1.44
AB - 3,223,415 - 10.05 - 28 - 9.09 - (-0.96)
BC - 4,219,968 - 13.15 - 36 - 11.69 - (-1.47)
YK - 31,227 - 0.10 - 1 - 0.32 - 0.23
NT - 42,944 - 0.13 - 1 - 0.32 - 0.19
NU - 29,683 - 0.09 - 1 - 0.32 - 0.23

So you can see that the Maritimes collectively only have 3.08% more representation than their population warrants. Any extra seats in the Maritimes is really coming out of Ontario's pocket so to speak. If Alberta really wants its extra say, they should look no further than Manitoba and for British Columbians, their missing representation is in Saskatchewan. So the west is really a wash. If anyone gets slightly more, it is the North, but they have to have atleast one seat each. But again, this comes out of Ontario's pocket.

If you really wanted to redistrubute seats along population proportions, then this is what would happen based on 308 seats.

NL - 5, PE - 1, NB - 7, NS- 9 (Atlantic = 22 seats)
Ontario = 119 seats
Quebec = 73 seats
MB - 11, SK - 10, AB - 31, BC - 41 (West = 93 seats)
North = 1 seat

So what would this accomplish? The west would have 1 extra seat, the North would share 1 seat collectively, Atlantic Canada would lose 10 seats, Quebec would lose 2 seats and lo and behold Ontario would pick up an extra 13 seats.

Looks like that would shift the balance of power further into Ontario's hands.

So the moral of the story is if you want more say, get more people! Until that happens, stop complaining about seat distribution, if any one is getting the shaft, it is Ontario!

Again, you want more seats and more power, then you have to get more people.

I understand your frustration, but it isn't something only you in the West of Canada go through. In Australia, the state of Western Australia makes up about a third of the country in size and is 2 hours behind their east coast. The population of WA is about 10% of the total population (20 Million), whereas the rest is concentrated along its East Coast in New South Wales, Victoria and Queensland. When they have an election, there is the PM smiling back at them before their votes are counted. Do they like it? Probably not, but unless they get more folk, there is nothing they can do.

 

[bluealberta]

DASfx wrote:

Again, you want more seats and more power, then you have to get more people.

I understand your frustration, but it isn't something only you in the West of Canada go through. In Australia, the state of Western Australia makes up about a third of the country in size and is 23 hours behind their east coast. The population of WA is about 10% of the total population (20 Million), which is concentrated along its East Coast in New South Wales, Victoria and Queensland. When they have an election, there is the PM smiling back at them before their votes are counted. Do they like it? Probably not, but unless they get more folk, there is nothing they can do.

REPLY:

This is only one prong of the frustration felt in the west. The other prong is the fiscal prong, especially in Alberta, where we have virtually no say politically in the country, but still supply a huge amount of transfer payments. And while you may say that Ontario gets the shaft here, Alberta gets it worse by paying more per capita than Ontario residents do. So we see $12billion in transfer payments leave the province to be wasted by the liberals year after year, yet anytime we raise objections, we are accused of whining. Let's see, no political say, higher transfer payments per capita than any other province, proven waste of money and corruption by the Liberal party, the NEP which raped the Alberta oil industry in the early 80's, what we consider to be $2billion wasted in a gun registry, another billion dollar boondoggle with HRDC, an EI surplus beyond belief, money in the billions hidden in foundations that no one can review. Yeah, I wonder why we "whine" about it too. What we really wonder is why nobody else whines about most of this too. Oh yeah, baaa baaa black sheep, three bags full........or Alberta money. Of course, if I was in a province on the receiving end of the money, I probably would not complain either.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: How will a Conservati

I keep forgetting that only Alberta paid for "$2billion wasted in a gun registry, another billion dollar boondoggle with HRDC, an EI surplus beyond belief, money in the billions hidden in foundations that no one can review."

It always slips my mind that Alberta is the only province that pays any tax whatsoever.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

I keep forgetting that only Alberta paid for "$2billion wasted in a gun registry, another billion dollar boondoggle with HRDC, an EI surplus beyond belief, money in the billions hidden in foundations that no one can review."

It always slips my mind that Alberta is the only province that pays any tax whatsoever.

That is not what I said, but let's take a look at it. Given that all these took place when only Ontario and Alberta were paying transfer payments in, then it follows that those provinces are the ones funding this. As it sits now, Alberta pays transfer payments in of roughly $12b and the government has a surplus of $9b. So at the very least, half the surplus, or $4.5 billion came from Alberta in the form of their transfer payments. Of course Alberta is not the only one who pays tax, but they are one of two or three that pay more than the tax contributions. This country has survived for the past several years on transfer payments from two provinces, the difference being that Ontario has a major say in how the country is governed, while Alberta has virtually not voice. Think about it. In every election, we can either add to a government that has already been elected, or at least provide some oppostion to a government we cannot support, generally.

So yes, Rev, we agree that Alberta is not the only one who pays tax, but is one of a few that pay over and above that. Alberta is not the only one who has paid for the waste in all the programs mentioned. But why is Alberta the only one who thinks this is wrong? Why is no other province upset? Why do other provinces keep voting back the idiots who caused the problems in the first place? How do you reconcile that in the last three weeks over $25billion dollars have been spent on the "Liberal pre-election election campaign", but the next dollar spent in Alberta will be the first. And if you say that we already have enough without getting help from Canada, then tell me again why we should stay, or why we should continue to accept the way this country operates now?

You have mentioned on several other posts about what Alberta will do when the oil runs out, several years down the road, and hope we don't come crawling back to Canada. Maybe we should just keep our $12 billion dollar transfer payments to make sure that when we run out we will not need to look to the ROC for help. Or maybe we could use this money to develop emission control technology, or alternate energy sources, or more efficient use of present day energy resources. Sounds a lot more sensible than funding an unnecessary day care program, a useless and horribly over budget gun registry, legalizing pot, legalizing prostituion, putting money into foundations for use by the Liberal party, paying off Liberal hacks and ad agencies, etc. etc. etc. You want to make sure we don't come back waaaaay down the road looking for help from Canada? Let us keep our transfer payments.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: How will a Conservati

Sounds to me like you and the rest of the Conservatives from Alberta are a bunch of whiners. "Everybody is always picking on us," is the only refrain we ever hear from you anymore.

When you lose the election (again) can we expect to finally be quiet and start acting like real Canadians? Nah, like spoiled children you'll be yapping about how unfair it all is and how you should just take your bat and ball and leave.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

Sounds to me like you and the rest of the Conservatives from Alberta are a bunch of whiners. "Everybody is always picking on us," is the only refrain we ever hear from you anymore.

When you lose the election (again) can we expect to finally be quiet and start acting like real Canadians? Nah, like spoiled children you'll be yapping about how unfair it all is and how you should just take your bat and ball and leave.

Yup, strike three, you're out and we're outta here.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: How will a Conservati

You'll go nowhere, Blue.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

[This country has survived for the past several years on transfer payments from two provinces, the difference being that Ontario has a major say in how the country is governed, while Alberta has virtually not voice.

Hey, I'm not against Alberta, and it is fine to complain if one thinks something is wrong. If you voted, you have every right to give back feedback. I think Alberta is picked on because it is perceived to have a superiority complex. This may be because of your outspoken Premier, but I do not think your concerns are too different from the rest of the provinces.

The two point I would point out though is that Alberta has only been a "have" province for a short time, the tables were turned not to long ago where it was the Quebec and the Maritimes supporting you, never lose sight of that. You currently pay more per capita because you can provide more per capita. In our system, we try our best to spread the wealth. We could charge every citizen a equal rate per capita, but you would then find great differences in the standard of living across the country or each provinces would simply get less. As for the wasted expenditures, I don't think anybody is happy about those.

I believe BC is a "have" province as well, but you are correct in saying that Alberta gets less political say than Ontario, but I wouldn't say Alberta has none, it has 9%. It all goes back to population, every arguement you make goes back to population.

Let's look at the simple math again. Say you a person that receives money from two groups. One group has 3 people (Group A) and the other has 13 (Group O). In terms of the groups they are equal, the number of members is irrelevant.

Say Group A gives 9$ to you (3$ per person), but then Group O gives you 19.50$ (1.50$ per person). Now if both these groups were making demands who are you going to go with? I cannot see any person that would pick Group A, although they give twice the amount per person, the absolute amount they give is less than half what Group O gives and on top of that, there are more than 4 times as many group members who will be mad at you if you go with Group A over Group O than if you went the other way.

It all makes logical sense, however that is no comfort to Alberta.

What is supposed to be the equalizing factor is the Senate, but we all know the problems that exist there.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

just like there are people in Southern Ontario who want to separate from Canada

I live in the heart of Southwestern Ontario, and there is no movement I'm aware of calling for seperation from Canada.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: How will a Conservati

I didn't say it was a large movement, Jay. There is a movement that wants to separate though. They started yakking loudest when Lastman was mayor of Toronto, if I recall correctly, but you can be sure they haven't gone away.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

[This country has survived for the past several years on transfer payments from two provinces, the difference being that Ontario has a major say in how the country is governed, while Alberta has virtually not voice.

Hey, I'm not against Alberta, and it is fine to complain if one thinks something is wrong. If you voted, you have every right to give back feedback. I think Alberta is picked on because it is perceived to have a superiority complex. This may be because of your outspoken Premier, but I do not think your concerns are too different from the rest of the provinces.

I understand where the complex issue comes from, but I think this arises from the fact that we are proud Albertans. Our Premier has a duty to his province and his electors, thus he has done what he has done in the past. However, if you look at all the issues over the last 10 years, Ralph backs down on most things to do with Ottawa, which causes him some problems with his conservative electors.
The two point I would point out though is that Alberta has only been a "have" province for a short time, the tables were turned not to long ago where it was the Quebec and the Maritimes supporting you, never lose sight of that. You currently pay more per capita because you can provide more per capita. In our system, we try our best to spread the wealth. We could charge every citizen a equal rate per capita, but you would then find great differences in the standard of living across the country or each provinces would simply get less. As for the wasted expenditures, I don't think anybody is happy about those.

Your last statement highlighted the real problem. The issue of transfer payments was not an issue until the waste, mismanagement, and corruption has become the norm. Most Albertans, including me, do not have a problem with transfer payments providing the money is spent responsibly. I think we can all agree that this has not been the case. It would be like you crying poor, and I provide you an extra couple of hundred dollars a month supposedly for groceries, but you used it to gamble. That is kind of how we feel here at this time.

I believe BC is a "have" province as well, but you are correct in saying that Alberta gets less political say than Ontario, but I wouldn't say Alberta has none, it has 9%. It all goes back to population, every arguement you make goes back to population.

Let's look at the simple math again. Say you a person that receives money from two groups. One group has 3 people (Group A) and the other has 13 (Group O). In terms of the groups they are equal, the number of members is irrelevant.

Say Group A gives 9$ to you (3$ per person), but then Group O gives you 19.50$ (1.50$ per person). Now if both these groups were making demands who are you going to go with? I cannot see any person that would pick Group A, although they give twice the amount per person, the absolute amount they give is less than half what Group O gives and on top of that, there are more than 4 times as many group members who will be mad at you if you go with Group A over Group O than if you went the other way.

It all makes logical sense, however that is no comfort to Alberta.

What is supposed to be the equalizing factor is the Senate, but we all know the problems that exist there.

The Senate issue is the one thing that would alleviate most of the so-called bitching and whining, you are absolutely correct. The current set up is a double whammy with Ontario not only controlling each election, but also the Senate. Of course the other issue of elected senators would also help. Alberta has done about all it can for elected senators, without any noticeable change. It is a joke that the liberals appoint liberal senators who have never won anything other than their own ridings out here. In the meantime, we have elected senators waiting to be put in the Senate. Again, this is taken as a direct slam against Alberta, and if someone wants to call that whining, so be it, personally, I think it is a totally legitimate complaint.

 

[DasFX]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

The issue of transfer payments was not an issue until the waste, mismanagement, and corruption has become the norm. Most Albertans, including me, do not have a problem with transfer payments providing the money is spent responsibly. I think we can all agree that this has not been the case. It would be like you crying poor, and I provide you an extra couple of hundred dollars a month supposedly for groceries, but you used it to gamble. That is kind of how we feel here at this time.

Well it appears we agree more than we disagree. I think the way you said it above will resonate much more than the way you were saying it before. People don't mind (as much) paying when money is well spent and they can see some good being done. Nobody likes to pay for nothing.

The Senate issue is the one thing that would alleviate most of the so-called bitching and whining, you are absolutely correct. The current set up is a double whammy with Ontario not only controlling each election, but also the Senate. Of course the other issue of elected senators would also help. Alberta has done about all it can for elected senators, without any noticeable change. It is a joke that the liberals appoint liberal senators who have never won anything other than their own ridings out here. In the meantime, we have elected senators waiting to be put in the Senate. Again, this is taken as a direct slam against Alberta, and if someone wants to call that whining, so be it, personally, I think it is a totally legitimate complaint.

Well I am in favour of having an equal and elected Senate. As of now, there is no accountability to Senators. Their allegiance is based on party lines and their best interest rather than Canadians.

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

I didn't say it was a large movement, Jay. There is a movement that wants to separate though. They started yakking loudest when Lastman was mayor of Toronto, if I recall correctly, but you can be sure they haven't gone away.

I see what you mean. The movement was for Toronto (which is sorta in the middle of southwestern Ontario and Eastern Ontario) To collect its own taxes, or to describe it better, to do things like large cities do such as Paris France. It wasn't to remove itself from Canada, but to restructure how the tax system works. Some Torontonians, right or wrong, think they pay to much money out, and they feel they need it. It is like a micro version of the transfer payment debate.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: How will a Conservati

The issue of transfer payments was not an issue until the waste, mismanagement, and corruption has become the norm. Most Albertans, including me, do not have a problem with transfer payments providing the money is spent responsibly. I think we can all agree that this has not been the case. It would be like you crying poor, and I provide you an extra couple of hundred dollars a month supposedly for groceries, but you used it to gamble. That is kind of how we feel here at this time.

Well it appears we agree more than we disagree. I think the way you said it above will resonate much more than the way you were saying it before. People don't mind (as much) paying when money is well spent and they can see some good being done. Nobody likes to pay for nothing.

The Senate issue is the one thing that would alleviate most of the so-called bitching and whining, you are absolutely correct. The current set up is a double whammy with Ontario not only controlling each election, but also the Senate. Of course the other issue of elected senators would also help. Alberta has done about all it can for elected senators, without any noticeable change. It is a joke that the liberals appoint liberal senators who have never won anything other than their own ridings out here. In the meantime, we have elected senators waiting to be put in the Senate. Again, this is taken as a direct slam against Alberta, and if someone wants to call that whining, so be it, personally, I think it is a totally legitimate complaint.

Well I am in favour of having an equal and elected Senate. As of now, there is no accountability to Senators. Their allegiance is based on party lines and their best interest rather than Canadians.

Glad I could make our, and my, position a little better, Das. Maybe what we say sounds like whining to the rest of the country, but I guess from our point, we have legitiamate complaints about the system. The Rev asked once if we would come crawling back to Canada once the oil revenue runs out. That question is again best answered by my original post. If the money we perceive as being supplied through transfer payments was not wasted or mismanaged, then the amount of the transfer payments would not be as large, and we could use that extra money to offset that day in the future when the revenues do decrease. I have said in other posts that we would like to use that money to develop alternate energy resources, more efficient use of present day resources ( I mean think about it, the less we use the longer our resource revenue will continue, so it is in our best interest to be more efficient), and more exploration to find more resources. If we can do that, we can share this technology with the rest of Canada and the world, provide jobs to not only Albertans but the ROC, which has got to benefit us all. However, until the waste, corruption, and mismanagement of funds in this country is fixed, I guess we will continue to "whine", or legitimately complain. Depends on your point of view, I suspect.

Thanks for your posts, they make some good points,